Well....well....well....then we want the Liberals investigated too the

[gerryhatrick]

By: JOAN BRYDEN AND JENNIFER DITCHBURN

OTTAWA (CP) - While Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his Conservative party continued to insist they're on the right side of financing laws, former party officials and experts said they have a completely different understanding of the rules.

Harper told reporters Friday that his party followed financing rules when it didn't publicly disclose fees paid to attend a March 2005 convention - an amount that could represent as much as $1.7 million.

snip

Mike Donison, the Conservative party's executive director, claimed in a letter to the Canada Revenue Agency that Liberal convention goers receive "significant personal benefits - for meals, drink, entertainment and the like . . . ."

"We would therefore ask you to investigate the legitimacy of tax receipting practices by the Liberal Party of Canada."

snip

Seidle, who is now with the Institute for Research on Public Policy, said the Conservative argument that they didn't need to disclose the fees because the convention didn't make a profit doesn't hold water.

http://www.cjad.com/node/376243

At first I thought, OK, they screwed up. Whatever. Pay back what is required/pay a fee/ and let's move on.

The media sure hasn't been making a big deal out of it (appeared only as a little sidebar...remember the $380 under-declared accident by Belinda a couple weeks back? front page!)

Meh, it's a new government so what the h#ll I thought.

But this, this is too much. Instead of dealing with it like men they're whining that they want the Liberals investigated? God, that is pathetic. I hope they get nailed to the wall over it now.

[jbg]

In terms of magnitude it's nothing like what the Liberals did, and it wasn't theft from the Canadian taxpayer.

[gerryhatrick]

In terms of magnitude it's nothing like what the Liberals did, and it wasn't theft from the Canadian taxpayer.

Au Contraire, it is theft. Campaign finance laws are there to ensure fairness in democracy. It appears they broke those laws to the tune of 2 million, and that constitutes a theft.

And what's worse is we now here Harper claiming no law was broken.

At least with the Liberals we right away saw an admission that something was wrong and an investigation initiated BY the Liberals.

In any event, this isn't about the Liberals. Claiming that the Liberals were worse is hardly a defense. It's pretty pathetic, actually. An honest man - a trustworthy man - would stand up and take responsibility without attempting to deflect the issue away to a past UNRELATED issue.

[Canuck E Stan]

gerryhatrick,

Why don't you start a few more threads on the same topic, that way you can respond with the same answer in a bunch of threads.

[gerryhatrick]

gerryhatrick,

Why don't you start a few more threads on the same topic, that way you can respond with the same answer in a bunch of threads.

Oh look, sour grapes from a troll. How nice.

[sharkman]

gerryhatrick,

Why don't you start a few more threads on the same topic, that way you can respond with the same answer in a bunch of threads.

Oh look, sour grapes from a troll. How nice.

Hah! funny thing hearing troll from one who started this, a troll thread. Come on: waaaaahhhhh, waaaahhhh? At least use some creativity in your trolling.

[Canuck E Stan]

gerryhatrick,

Why don't you start a few more threads on the same topic, that way you can respond with the same answer in a bunch of threads.

Oh look, sour grapes from a troll. How nice.

Once again you ignore the rules.

NO CROSS-POSTING

It is also considered cross posting IF YOU POST THE SAME INFORMATION IN DIFFERENT AREAS OF THESE FORUMS.

If you want to propose a new topic, find the appropriate category and only post once.

All cross-posts will be deleted without warning.

[KrustyKidd]

Reason why the Libs did worse is an effective method is because the Cons are fixing a lot of the crap the Libs had going. Be patient, they will get to most of it. Took twelve years to screw up so will take at least one to undo Gerry.

[jbg]

In terms of magnitude it's nothing like what the Liberals did, and it wasn't theft from the Canadian taxpayer.

Au Contraire, it is theft. Campaign finance laws are there to ensure fairness in democracy. It appears they broke those laws to the tune of 2 million, and that constitutes a theft.

And what's worse is we now here Harper claiming no law was broken.

At least with the Liberals we right away saw an admission that something was wrong and an investigation initiated BY the Liberals.

In any event, this isn't about the Liberals. Claiming that the Liberals were worse is hardly a defense. It's pretty pathetic, actually. An honest man - a trustworthy man - would stand up and take responsibility without attempting to deflect the issue away to a past UNRELATED issue.

My vague understanding of Canadian election law is that a policy convention is not covered by it. And one other question; do you think the CPC netted a profit on the convention after costs?

[gerryhatrick]

My vague understanding of Canadian election law is that a policy convention is not covered by it. And one other question; do you think the CPC netted a profit on the convention after costs?

Your vague understanding of Canadian election law is not relavent here. Nor is your question.

Read the article.

These people all agree that the convention fees are supposed to be declared and members get receipts:

Rick Anderson, a top organizer and executive member of both the Reform Party and its successor, the Canadian Alliance

Seidle, who is now with the Institute for Research on Public Policy,

student of Canadian electoral law, University of Windsor Professor Heather MacIvor,

Elections Canada spokeswoman Valerie Hache said the law stipulates that a fee paid to attend a political convention does constitute a donation

The talk about "profit" is also shot down. To a layman, it sounds ridiculous. Hey, if the entire campaign didn't score a profit then why declare anything?

[jbg]

Your vague understanding of Canadian election law is not relavent here. Nor is your question.

Read the article.

These people all agree that the convention fees are supposed to be declared and members get receipts:

Rick Anderson, a top organizer and executive member of both the Reform Party and its successor, the Canadian Alliance

Seidle, who is now with the Institute for Research on Public Policy,

student of Canadian electoral law, University of Windsor Professor Heather MacIvor,

Elections Canada spokeswoman Valerie Hache said the law stipulates that a fee paid to attend a political convention does constitute a donation

I visited Montreal during the convention and watched receipts being issued. Though I did not go into the convention (and thus did not get a receipt) they were giving them out. My point is that a convention is not an election activity. It does not occur during or in connection with the writ drop period. In many cases the MP candidates are not selected. In short, it has zed to do with an election. And Valerie Hache's views seem highly partisan.

The talk about "profit" is also shot down. To a layman, it sounds ridiculous. Hey, if the entire campaign didn't score a profit then why declare anything?

My point is that an event costs something to run. Obviously, a $600 a plate chicken dinner is in part a donation. The chicken costs something. Same with a convention. Perhaps, the portion of the price, above hall rental, cleanup, security, etc. should properly be considered a donation.

[gc1765]

My point is that an event costs something to run. Obviously, a $600 a plate chicken dinner is in part a donation. The chicken costs something. Same with a convention. Perhaps, the portion of the price, above hall rental, cleanup, security, etc. should properly be considered a donation.

I agree, anything above and beyond the cost of the convention should be considered a donation and therefore should be reported. Anything up to the cost should not be considered a donation. However, if that cost is not a donation, then they should not be getting tax credits for them! It seems like the conservatives are trying to get the best of both worlds, they want the money to not be considered as a donation so they don't have to report it, yet they want to count it as a donation so that they can get a tax credit! So that is taking money from the taxpayers of Canada. The difference is that this is the current conservative party that is engaged in these unethical practices, not some former members of the liberal party, therefore any comparison with the sponsorship scandal doesn't make sense. I don't see the liberal party bringing up the airbus affair any chance they get.

Link

[Canuck E Stan]

I don't see the liberal party bringing up the airbus affair any chance they get.

.....and what happened with the airbus affair?

[gerryhatrick]

I visited Montreal during the convention and watched receipts being issued. Though I did not go into the convention (and thus did not get a receipt) they were giving them out.

Well, what you saw were not receipts in the flavor that are required, obviously:

The Conservatives provided no receipts at their last convention a fact confirmed at a Senate committee by Treasury Board President John Baird.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/s...ebe8c7b&k=82796

My point is that a convention is not an election activity. It does not occur during or in connection with the writ drop period.

I don't see how your take on it matters, since we've seen multiple sources quoted in multiple stories saying that the rules are clear and a convention entry fee must be declared.

My point is that an event costs something to run. Obviously, a $600 a plate chicken dinner is in part a donation. The chicken costs something. Same with a convention. Perhaps, the portion of the price, above hall rental, cleanup, security, etc. should properly be considered a donation.

I thought your point was that the convention is outside of the election activity period? You're trying to cover ALL the bases here!

Listen, Harpers people are saying one thing....that the convention didn't turn a profit therefore nothing need be declared. Old time Reform and Alliance persons contacted by the press as well as some legal experts are saying that's not correct. Stand by your man, the truth will out (in spite of the press ban!)

[jbg]

What press ban?

[Argus]

In terms of magnitude it's nothing like what the Liberals did, and it wasn't theft from the Canadian taxpayer.

Au Contraire, it is theft. Campaign finance laws are there to ensure fairness in democracy. It appears they broke those laws to the tune of 2 million, and that constitutes a theft.

Absolute drivel.

The fees were perfectly legal to accept, and were acepted in front of the entire national media, I might add, and perfectly legal to spend, as well. So where is this theft? If the money was legally reported are you saying they wouldn't have been able to spend it?

Funny how all the people who shrugged off the outright racketeering of the Liberal Party are so bug-eyed with indignation at an inconsequential error in legalistic interpretation.

At least with the Liberals we right away saw an admission that something was wrong and an investigation initiated BY the Liberals.

Ah, no, what we saw were denials and coverups until, because of digging of the media and opposition, the auditor general investigated. At that point the Liberals did their best to pretend to cooperate. But we saw in the aftermath of Martin becoming leader what that really meant. It meant screwing around with the House committee investigating this, preventing it from interviewing the big players, then closing it down before it could find anyting out and writing a report which cleared the government of any wrongdoing.

[gerryhatrick]

Once again you ignore the rules.

NO CROSS-POSTING

It is also considered cross posting IF YOU POST THE SAME INFORMATION IN DIFFERENT AREAS OF THESE FORUMS.

Where else is this topic posted?

USE THE REPORT BUTTON INSTEAD OF TROLLING/FLAMING ME. I COULD COPY THE RULES ON TROLLING/FLAMING FOR YOU, BUT YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW WHERE TO FIND THE RULES SO GO READ THEM AND THEN CEASE YOUR IMMATURE LITTLE GAMES PLEASE.

[jbg]

Ah, no, what we saw were denials and coverups until, because of digging of the media and opposition, the auditor general investigated. At that point the Liberals did their best to pretend to cooperate. But we saw in the aftermath of Martin becoming leader what that really meant. It meant screwing around with the House committee investigating this, preventing it from interviewing the big players, then closing it down before it could find anyting out and writing a report which cleared the government of any wrongdoing.

What we saw was the Martin faction of the LPOC trying to drive a spike into the Chrétien faction. This wasn't honesty or self-disclosure; this was partisan infighting and sharp elbows.

[BHS]

Once again you ignore the rules.

NO CROSS-POSTING

It is also considered cross posting IF YOU POST THE SAME INFORMATION IN DIFFERENT AREAS OF THESE FORUMS.

Where else is this topic posted?

USE THE REPORT BUTTON INSTEAD OF TROLLING/FLAMING ME. I COULD COPY THE RULES ON TROLLING/FLAMING FOR YOU, BUT YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW WHERE TO FIND THE RULES SO GO READ THEM AND THEN CEASE YOUR IMMATURE LITTLE GAMES PLEASE.

Another little rule you both could profit from hearing again is that calling another member a troll is also forbidden.

[gerryhatrick]

What press ban?

I'll take that to mean you admit you're wrong about the receipts.

The National press ban. Let's not play games, k? You're aware of the little battle Harper is engaged in with the national press and his decision to ignore them. I realize you're about to come back with a retort about how the national press started it and it's all their fault and there's no press ban because he's reaching out to other press.

Don't bother.

[gerryhatrick]

The fees were perfectly legal to accept, and were acepted in front of the entire national media, I might add, and perfectly legal to spend, as well. So where is this theft?

LOL! Oh, so the MEDIA had a hand in it? The media is not there to make sure that the political parties are following election law.

In answer to your question "where is the theft?"....

If you underpay your taxes through incorrect declarations, are you breaking the law? Are you not stealing from the Canadian government?

Of course you are.

Show some more class than Harper. If they messed up they messed up, deal with it. Don't yap about Liberals (not saying you are, Harper is) just accept that there's an investigation going on and the CPC might have f'd up.

The defense being mounted by people who know nothing is indicitive of the zealous willingness to accept anything the CPC does. Very Bush-like.

[jbg]

The defense being mounted by people who know nothing is indicitive of the zealous willingness to accept anything the CPC does. Very Bush-like.

Why is "Bush" the automatic demonization term these days?

[gerryhatrick]

The defense being mounted by people who know nothing is indicitive of the zealous willingness to accept anything the CPC does. Very Bush-like.

Why is "Bush" the automatic demonization term these days?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe because he's been an unmitigated disaster?

[jbg]

The defense being mounted by people who know nothing is indicitive of the zealous willingness to accept anything the CPC does. Very Bush-like.

Why is "Bush" the automatic demonization term these days?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe because he's been an unmitigated disaster?

For every uninformed person who says that, I point to Winston churchill as an example. No one ever likes to hear the news that they're at war. The West is at war, and it started before the Crusades, not on January 20, 2001.

Bush delivered the bad news, and is fighting the war with the political and military tools he has. The carping is not helpful.

[gerryhatrick]

For every uninformed person who says that, I point to Winston churchill as an example. No one ever likes to hear the news that they're at war. The West is at war, and it started before the Crusades, not on January 20, 2001.

Bush delivered the bad news, and is fighting the war with the political and military tools he has. The carping is not helpful.

good grief. Winston Churchill must be spinning in his grave.

Everything Bush has touched has turned to sh@t. I'm not carping, I'm telling you the man has ruined his Country and is doing his best with the rest of the world.

Bush didn't deliver anything. Al Qaida delivered the bad news and ANY President would have gone after them. Pretending otherwise is nonsense.