Slavic Ukraine/Russia Civil War -How to End

[August1991]

1. Advice to Americans: Don't get involved in civil wars.

1a. Iraq.

2. Putin wants regime change in Kiev.

2a. I reckon that this means Zelensky regime is gone.

2b. If not, western Ukraine is destroyed.  

[August1991]

Here's an idea: Divide so-called Ukraine.

Create a new country: Galicia - like Slovakia.

[BlahTheCanuck]

It's not a civil war. Ukraine and Russia have been separate countries for 35 years. Putin has no right to demand regime change in a separate country that is not a threat to Russia. Ukraine is an independent country and has the right to determine its own future.

Edited Sunday at 06:33 PM by BlahTheCanuck

[Scott75]

On 5/17/2025 at 10:56 PM, August1991 said:

Here's an idea: Divide so-called Ukraine.

Create a new country: Galicia - like Slovakia.

That basically fits Russia's demand. They've made it quite clear that they're not giving back the land in eastern Ukraine that they've taken, which is the 4 easternmost regions. The longer it takes for Ukraine to agree to this division, the more land they're likely to take. Russia even said that recently that the next time they would be asking for 4 regions, they'd be asking for 8. I think that "this time" hasn't yet expired, and Trump may understand this, thus his talking to Putin today. Hopefully something is worked out.

[Scott75]

18 hours ago, BlahTheCanuck said:

It's not a civil war.

Not now, but it certainly -was-. Ukraine was in a civil war for 8 -years- prior to Russia's military intervention. It's a war that certainly wasn't well covered in the western mainstream media, but a team of German journalists did a good job of covering it. Their documentary can be seen here:

This civil war, wherein thousands of Russian speakers died, was, I believe, the key factor in getting Putin to decide to go to war in Ukraine when he did. Here's what he said in the speech he gave when it all started, on February 24, 2022:

**

This brings me to the situation in Donbass. We can see that the forces that staged the coup in Ukraine in 2014 have seized power, are keeping it with the help of ornamental election procedures and have abandoned the path of a peaceful conflict settlement. For eight years, for eight endless years we have been doing everything possible to settle the situation by peaceful political means. Everything was in vain.

As I said in my previous address, you cannot look without compassion at what is happening there. It became impossible to tolerate it. We had to stop that atrocity, that genocide of the millions of people who live there and who pinned their hopes on Russia, on all of us. It is their aspirations, the feelings and pain of these people that were the main motivating force behind our decision to recognise the independence of the Donbass people’s republics.

**

Full speech:

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/statements/67843

[User]

4 hours ago, Scott75 said:

Not now, but it certainly -was-. Ukraine was in a civil war for 8 -years- prior to Russia's military intervention.

This is such a lie. You are just pushing propaganda for Putin. 

Russia created that war with its annexation of Crimea. They were the ones pushing the separatists, supporting them, and having an outright shadow involvement of the Russian military. 

 

[Scott75]

5 minutes ago, User said:

4 hours ago, Scott75 said:

Not now, but it certainly -was-. Ukraine was in a civil war for 8 -years- prior to Russia's military intervention.

This is such a lie. You are just pushing propaganda for Putin.

No, I'm just stating a fact. I see you snipped out the part where I included a documentary by a team of German journalists who documented said civil war. For those who didn't see the post User is responding to, here is the documentary once more:

7 minutes ago, User said:

Russia created that war with its annexation of Crimea.

No, what started the civil war was the removal of Viktor Yanukovych, who had been the elected President of Ukraine up until he had to flee for his life during Euromaidan. There's a very good article on Euromaidan that was published on the day that Russia started its military operation in Ukraine. It can be seen here:

https://off-guardian.org/2022/02/24/timeline-euromaidan-the-original-ukraine-crisis/

[User]

4 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

No, I'm just stating a fact.

Hardly. You lied stating that Russia entered the war 8 years later. They pushed it from the beginning and had direct military interventions there. 

Posting a link to some random Youtube video doesn't prove anything. 

 

[August1991]

11 hours ago, Scott75 said:

That basically fits Russia's demand. They've made it quite clear that they're not giving back the land in eastern Ukraine that they've taken, which is the 4 easternmost regions. The longer it takes for Ukraine to agree to this division, the more land they're likely to take. Russia even said that recently that the next time they would be asking for 4 regions, they'd be asking for 8. I think that "this time" hasn't yet expired, and Trump may understand this, thus his talking to Putin today. Hopefully something is worked out.

If I were Russian, I would insist on more.

NATO must dissolve. Disappear.

=====

To avoid a Summer 1914 disaster, we need a new structure of peace among the elites.

Since the early 1990s, we haven't had it.

Edited 23 hours ago by August1991

[User]

22 minutes ago, August1991 said:

NATO must dissolve. Disappear.

Um... might as well ask for the moon to be made of cheese!

[August1991]

16 minutes ago, User said:

Um... might as well ask for the moon to be made of cheese!

Strongly disagree.

Europe has been sliced and diced.

It is America - North America - that has been largely peaceful. As a Canadian, I could not hope for a better neighbour.

=====

To have world peace, we must avoid a 1914 disaster.

[User]

Just now, August1991 said:

Strongly disagree.

Europe has been sliced and diced.

It is America - North America - that has been largely peaceful. As a Canadian, I could not hope for a better neighbour.

=====

To have world peace, we must avoid a 1914 disaster.

So, your brilliant notion for discouraging more war and getting peace... is to give in to a warmonger that used war to get what they wanted, by giving them even more than they could dream of wanting. 

What next, going to teach your dog to not shit on the floor by giving it treats every time it does?

[August1991]

2 minutes ago, User said:

So, your brilliant notion for discouraging more war and getting peace... is to give in to a warmonger that used war to get what they wanted, by giving them even more than they could dream of wanting. 

What next, going to teach your dog to not shit on the floor by giving it treats every time it does?

Europeans: Numerous wars killing people.

Americans: We get along - except for a Civil War.

[User]

15 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Europeans: Numerous wars killing people.

Americans: We get along - except for a Civil War.

When was the last time a nation waged war against a NATO country?

Interesting how that works, and now you want to dissolve that deterrent thinking that will bring peace?

 

Edited 22 hours ago by User

[August1991]

6 minutes ago, User said:

When was the last time a nation waged war against a NATO country?

Interesting how that works, and now you want to dissolve that deterrent thinking that will bring peace?

 

Uh? Afghanistan?

=====

NATO was created to oppose the Soviet Union, you know: Communism.

In 1991, Reagan won. Heck, in 1989, the wall fell.

[User]

12 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Uh? Afghanistan?

=====

NATO was created to oppose the Soviet Union, you know: Communism.

In 1991, Reagan won. Heck, in 1989, the wall fell.

Uh, Afghanistan did not wage war against America. A terrorist did. Afghanistan refused to hand them over on our terms. 

The end of the Soviet Union was not the end of the threat posed by Russia. 

And so what? Having the defensive alliance only continues to... be a defensive alliance to deter war against any member. 

Wasn't that what you wanted? Peace?
 

[August1991]

2 minutes ago, User said:

..

The end of the Soviet Union was not the end of the threat posed by Russia. 

...

Here, I very strongly disagree.

====

When the Berlin Wall fell, we defeated communism. Ordinary people were free.

Russia is not a threat. China is not a threat.

Ordinary Russians and ordinary Chinese can now travel abroad.

[Scott75]

11 hours ago, User said:

11 hours ago, Scott75 said:

11 hours ago, User said:

15 hours ago, Scott75 said:

On 5/18/2025 at 12:33 PM, BlahTheCanuck said:

It's not a civil war.

Not now, but it certainly -was-. Ukraine was in a civil war for 8 -years- prior to Russia's military intervention.

This is such a lie. You are just pushing propaganda for Putin.

No, I'm just stating a fact.

Hardly. You lied stating that Russia entered the war 8 years later. They pushed it from the beginning and had direct military interventions there. 

No, Russia's military only started fighting in Ukraine on February 24, 2022. Former Swiss Intelligence Officer Jacques Baud, whose job had been to find out where eastern Ukrainians were getting their weapons during the civil war figured that out. You can read his article where he brings this up here:

https://scheerpost.com/2022/04/09/former-nato-military-analyst-blows-the-whistle-on-wests-ukraine-invasion-narrative/

 

11 hours ago, User said:

Posting a link to some random Youtube video doesn't prove anything.

Agreed. I didn't do that though. I posted a documentary from a German team of journalists documenting the 8 year civil war between western Ukraine and eastern Ukraine between 2014 and 2022. For anyone who missed the post in question, the documentary can be seen here:

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Scott75

[Scott75]

4 hours ago, August1991 said:

15 hours ago, Scott75 said:

That basically fits Russia's demand. They've made it quite clear that they're not giving back the land in eastern Ukraine that they've taken, which is the 4 easternmost regions. The longer it takes for Ukraine to agree to this division, the more land they're likely to take. Russia even said that recently that the next time they would be asking for 4 regions, they'd be asking for 8. I think that "this time" hasn't yet expired, and Trump may understand this, thus his talking to Putin today. Hopefully something is worked out.

If I were Russian, I would insist on more.

NATO must dissolve. Disappear.

=====

To avoid a Summer 1914 disaster, we need a new structure of peace among the elites.

Since the early 1990s, we haven't had it.

I agree that NATO -should- be dissolved, but I think that Putin is smart in not demanding that. I think that Putin is aiming to get as much as he can -without- getting some western country do something particularly foolish, such as lobbing a nuke. I also think he's smart in on agreeing to talk to Trump and deftly saying that he'd like peace but certain conditions must be met every time.

I think there was a really good paragraph from an article substack blogger Simplicius just published that you may also find interesting:

**

Right now the prevailing mode of negotiations theater can be likened to a game of Musical Chairs, where each party plays along so as not to be the one left out without a chair in the end. In this case, everyone is playing along as wanting peace to deter accusations of warmongering, but in reality each party has their own secret motivations for continuing the conflict. In Russia’s case, it needs a decisive victory to keep the conflict from restarting in the future. In Europe’s case, they need a weakened Russia perpetually held in check via the yoke of sanctions and tensions. The US wouldn’t mind seeing all the parties weakened to the benefit of the US itself.

**

Source:

https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/putin-trump-phone-call-deadend-afu

[Scott75]

2 hours ago, August1991 said:

3 hours ago, User said:

The end of the Soviet Union was not the end of the threat posed by Russia.

Here, I very strongly disagree.

====

When the Berlin Wall fell, we defeated communism. Ordinary people were free.

Russia is not a threat. China is not a threat.

Ordinary Russians and ordinary Chinese can now travel abroad.

Russia and China are threats to western elites that don't like the fact that these nations have clearly become major powers. Combined, I believe they are more than a match for the U.S. and its European lackeys. 

Russia has made it clear that it -will- retaliate if provoked, its war in Ukraine being the prime example. As the saying goes, don't poke the bear. I also strongly suspect China would also retaliate if the U.S. keeps on antagonizing it via political moves it does with regards to Taiwan. As has become increasingly clear, the United States' navy is no longer such a threat as it used to be, due in large part to the fact that a low budget military can do a lot of damage to it- the Houthis made that clear:

https://www.kitklarenberg.com/p/americas-defeat-by-gods-partisans

[User]

10 hours ago, August1991 said:

Here, I very strongly disagree.

====

When the Berlin Wall fell, we defeated communism. Ordinary people were free.

Russia is not a threat. China is not a threat.

Ordinary Russians and ordinary Chinese can now travel abroad.

Russia is not a threat... as we are in a thread talking about how Russia invaded Ukraine. 

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia has continued to engage in their provocation around the world and support for global groups and causes that go against the West. 

 

[User]

7 hours ago, Scott75 said:

No, Russia's military only started fighting in Ukraine on February 24, 2022.

This is an outright lie. 

Russian forces were directly involved in the initial fighting in 2014. They supplied weapons, tanks, artillery, troops, and special forces.

This shit is even reported in the Moscow Times now, about how it was a Russian unit led by Igor Strelkov that really started the war as they were the ones that took administrative buildings and prevented local police from seizing back control quickly enough. 

 

[Scott75]

14 minutes ago, User said:

8 hours ago, Scott75 said:

No, Russia's military only started fighting in Ukraine on February 24, 2022.

This is an outright lie. 

Russian forces were directly involved in the initial fighting in 2014. They supplied weapons, tanks, artillery, troops, and special forces.

Lies, though to be fair, they were government sponsored lies. As I mentioned (and you snipped out) in the post you were responding to, former Swiss Intelligence Officer Jacques Baud blew the whistle on this false western mainstream media narrative, as well as many others in the following article:

https://scheerpost.com/2022/04/09/former-nato-military-analyst-blows-the-whistle-on-wests-ukraine-invasion-narrative/

Quoting the relevant part:

**

In 2014, I am at NATO, responsible for the fight against the proliferation of small arms, and we are trying to detect Russian arms deliveries to the rebels in order to see if Moscow is involved. The information that we receive then comes practically all from the Polish intelligence services and does not “match” with the information from the OSCE: in spite of rather crude allegations, we do not observe any delivery of arms and materials Russian military.

The rebels are armed thanks to the defections of Russian-speaking Ukrainian units which cross over to the rebel side. As the Ukrainian failures progressed, the entire tank, artillery or anti-aircraft battalions swelled the ranks of the autonomists. This is what drives the Ukrainians to commit to the Minsk Accords.

But, just after signing the Minsk 1 Accords, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko launched a vast anti-terrorist operation (ATO/Антитерористична операція) against Donbass. Bis repetita placent  : poorly advised by NATO officers, the Ukrainians suffered a crushing defeat at Debaltsevo which forced them to commit to the Minsk 2 Agreements…

**

 

[User]

21 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

Lies, though to be fair, they were government sponsored lies.

Yes, you are regurgitating Russian lies. 

 

[Scott75]

54 minutes ago, User said:

This shit is even reported in the Moscow Times now, about how it was a Russian unit led by Igor Strelkov that really started the war as they were the ones that took administrative buildings and prevented local police from seizing back control quickly enough.

The Moscow Times? Oh User, your education on that publication is severely lacking. From the start, this publication has been run by someone that has cared little if at all for the truth. A good article on its founding to 2015, by John Helmer, one of its first writers, who was fired for not wanting to tell lies:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/05/08/no-more-regurgitation-from-the-moscow-times/

Quoting from the beginning of the article:

**

The Moscow Times version claims it “was established as Independent Media in March 1992 by a group of Dutch investors headed by Derk Sauer…From the beginning, founder Derk Sauer raised an ‘Iron Curtain’ between the editorial and commercial divisions as a precautionary measure to protect the newspaper’s reputation in a country where the media is still known for publishing paid-for articles. The newsroom and commercial offices even occupy separate floors at SIM’s headquarters in Moscow.”

Sauer himself claims to have sold his “beautiful house” in the Netherlands to raise the cash to finance the start of the newspaper. “I sold the house,” he said last November, “developed a business plan, plunged into the company’s financial performance and become a true entrepreneur.” In 1992 Sauer told me himself he was getting investment from US sources.

I am the last of the original Moscow Times writers still reporting from Moscow. The story of my sacking can be read, along with the story which caused it, here.

At the beginning of September 1992, the political and constitutional conflict was intensifying between the Russian parliament, led by Ruslan Khasbulatov, and President Boris Yeltsin. Reporting on growing support for Khasbulatov and Yeltsin’s worsening position, I was told by the Times editor, then Meg Bortin (above, centre), to change my text, so that it would mean the opposite of what I was reporting, and favour Yeltsin. I refused; Bortin gave me an ultimatum; I refused again; the article was spiked; and I never appeared in The Moscow Times again (above right – Sauer and Bortin in 1992).

According to an exchange of documents on September 4, 1992, Sauer proposed paying me a monthly stipend if I would stay silent. When Sauer’s payments stopped, I resumed regular reporting in the English-language media of Moscow – firstly in the Moscow Tribune published by Anthony Louis, then in The Russia Journal of Ajay Goyal (below).

**

Sonoma acquired Independent Media in 2005, and sold "MoscowTimes LLC to Demyan Kudryavtsev [ru; et], a former director of Kommersant.^[30][31][32]", according to Wikipedia. 

 

Continuing from Wikipedia:

**

In 2017, the paper version stopped. The final paper edition appeared on 6 July.^[33] In July 2017 the operation of the paper changed to Stichting 2 Oktober, a foundation based in the Netherlands.^[34][35]

The Moscow Times currently belongs to a limited liability company which is 51% owned by Russian businessman Vladimir Jao, the CEO of an airline catering company, 30% by Svetlana Korshunova (Russian: Светлана Коршунова), general director of the paper, and 19% by Derk Sauer, the original founder of the paper. Speaking to Kommersant, Derk Sauer explained that this is merely to comply with a Russian law which prohibits foreigners from controlling more than 20% of any Russia-based media company, since Sauer is a Dutch citizen. He further said that Vladimir Jao is an old friend of his, and "he does not control the publication, he is a partner".^[36][37][38]

In March 2020, the online newspaper launched a Russian language edition.^[39]

Following the passage of a law restricting coverage of the Russian invasion of Ukraine in March 2022, the newspaper moved its main editors to Amsterdam.^[1][40] On 15 April, Roskomnadzor blocked access to the Russian-language website of The Moscow Times in Russia after it had published what authorities called a false report on Russian riot police officers refusing to participate in the invasion.^[7][8] To make the website available within Russia despite blocks, it registered a range of domain names, sending links to the next current domain to readers via Telegram when one is blocked.^[41]

On 17 March 2023, The Moscow Times said it has been designated a ‘foreign agent’ by Russia's justice ministry, which accused The Moscow Times of spreading inaccurate information about authorities' decisions, thereby forming a negative image of Russia. The Moscow Times said that the foreign agent legislation had been "disproportionately used”.^[42]

On 10 July 2024, the Prosecutor General of Russia declared The Moscow Times an undesirable organization.^[43] This designation practically bans the Times from operating in Russia, as anyone working for them or interacting with them (such as by agreeing to be interviewed) could potentially be prosecuted and sent to jail.^[44]

**

So clearly, this is -not- a Russian sanctioned paper at this point, but just another western publication.

Edited 10 hours ago by Scott75