Scott75 Posted March 22 Author Report Posted March 22 12 hours ago, TreeBeard said: Capitulation is an age old way to get “peace”. The question that should be asked is, what is better for Ukraine- to continue a war it can't win where it continues to lose territory or to negotiate a peace deal now. I think there's already plenty of evidence that the deal it's likely to get will get worse and worse the longer it refuses to work out a deal. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 24 Report Posted March 24 (edited) On 3/22/2025 at 8:49 AM, Scott75 said: The question that should be asked is, what is better for Ukraine- to continue a war it can't win where it continues to lose territory or to negotiate a peace deal now. I think there's already plenty of evidence that the deal it's likely to get will get worse and worse the longer it refuses to work out a deal. Yes, because Trump seems inclined to make sure it gets worse. So far, he's done nothing but improve Putin's position and make Ukraine's position worse. This is not surprising, of course, because everything he and his clown cabinet were saying even before the election suggested that's exactly what they were going to do. Edited March 24 by Moonbox Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
Scott75 Posted March 25 Author Report Posted March 25 (edited) 2 hours ago, Moonbox said: On 3/22/2025 at 6:49 AM, Scott75 said: The question that should be asked is, what is better for Ukraine- to continue a war it can't win where it continues to lose territory or to negotiate a peace deal now. I think there's already plenty of evidence that the deal it's likely to get will get worse and worse the longer it refuses to work out a deal. Yes, because Trump seems inclined to make sure it gets worse. No, because Russia is winning the war. 2 hours ago, Moonbox said: So far, he's done nothing but improve Putin's position and make Ukraine's position worse. I've seen no evidence for this. As a matter of fact, I see the opposite. It's a shame Trump wasn't around back when Russia and Ukraine almost made a peace deal at the start of the war, as I can easily imagine that Trump would have jumped at the chance, instead of what actually happened, which was the Biden Administration and Boris Johnson telling Zelensky to "fight on". Had Trump been at the helm at that time and persuaded Zelensky to accept the deal rather than reject it, Russia would have literally walked away from -all- of the territory they took since the start of their military operation, in exchange for some very reasonable concessions from Ukraine. You can read all about the almost peace here: https://www.thenation.com/article/world/ukraine-russia-war-peace-diplomacy/ As things stand, Trump inherited a mess in Ukraine. Considering that fact, I'd say he's doing a lot better than Biden ever did there. His biggest problem is that Zelensky's Administration has no interest in facing the reality of their situation as thus has no interest in actually achieving peace at this time. The Russians have figured that out: https://www.rt.com/russia/614714-kiev-violates-truce-moscow/ Edited March 25 by Scott75 Quote
Moonbox Posted March 25 Report Posted March 25 17 hours ago, Scott75 said: I've seen no evidence for this. Right, so declaring Zelensky a dictator, that Ukraine started the war, and pausing military aid and intelligence sharing weren't all gifts to Putin. Okay buddy boy. 🤡👍 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 25 Report Posted March 25 25 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Right, so declaring Zelensky a dictator, that Ukraine started the war, and pausing military aid and intelligence sharing weren't all gifts to Putin. Okay buddy boy. 🤡👍 Nope. Leverage to bring Zelensky to the table to agree to a ceasefire. It worked. Military aid and intelligence sharing have resumed. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 25 Report Posted March 25 43 minutes ago, User said: Nope. Leverage to bring Zelensky to the table to agree to a ceasefire. It worked. Military aid and intelligence sharing have resumed. While no leverage or pressure was applied to Russia whatsoever. While Trump and his clown cabinet validated and justified Putin's invasion publicly. If you were trying to describe appeasement then I guess you're right? 🤡 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 25 Report Posted March 25 2 minutes ago, Moonbox said: While no leverage or pressure was applied to Russia whatsoever. While Trump and his clown cabinet validated and justified Putin's invasion publicly. If you were trying to describe appeasement then I guess you're right? 🤡 Not whatsoever. Trump has been vocal about enacting more sanctions and Putin has been engaged in talks as well as some small advances towards some ceasefires like the one in the Black Sea. I am describing facts and reality, you are more interested in spin. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 26 Report Posted March 26 On 3/25/2025 at 3:14 PM, User said: Not whatsoever. Trump has been vocal about enacting more sanctions and Putin has been engaged in talks as well as some small advances towards some ceasefires like the one in the Black Sea. Considering Russia is already smothered in sanctions, this "threat" rings pretty empty. Now Russia is saying they're not going along with a Black Sea deal until some of the existing sanctions are lifted. Let's see how that goes, huh? 😆 On 3/25/2025 at 3:14 PM, User said: I am describing facts and reality, you are more interested in spin. Trump's spin is your reality. That's why you can't run away fast enough from the "fact" that he keeps legitimizing Putin's propaganda points. 👌 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 26 Report Posted March 26 2 hours ago, Moonbox said: Considering Russia is already smothered in sanctions, this "threat" rings pretty empty. Now Russia is saying they're not going along with a Black Sea deal until some of the existing sanctions are lifted. Let's see how that goes, huh? There can always be more done. 2 hours ago, Moonbox said: Trump's spin is your reality. That's why you can't run away fast enough from the "fact" that he keeps legitimizing Putin's propaganda points. I have not ran away from that, I have responded to that point already. You say he keeps legitimizing Putin's propaganda... OK, when was the last time? Quote
Moonbox Posted March 27 Report Posted March 27 23 hours ago, User said: There can always be more done. Yeah, just like Putin can keep threatening to "escalate" against Ukraine. The threats hit a point of diminishing returns at a certain point, both practically and rhetorically. 23 hours ago, User said: I have not ran away from that, I have responded to that point already. You say he keeps legitimizing Putin's propaganda... OK, when was the last time? He legitimized it, publicly and unequivocally. That's toothpaste you can't put back in the tube - permanent damage to Ukraine's position and a permanent gift to Putin's propaganda. "He said a stupid thing" is a pretty feeble response, all things considered. Pretty massive "oopsy" if that's all it was. 🙃 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 27 Report Posted March 27 6 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Yeah, just like Putin can keep threatening to "escalate" against Ukraine. The threats hit a point of diminishing returns at a certain point, both practically and rhetorically. Well... you are trying to have it both ways here. You want to play the extremes saying Trump is not doing anything towards Russia: "While no leverage or pressure was applied to Russia whatsoever. " But then when I point out what he is doing then you want to downplay it. This is, like other discussions of ours, a very dull game of whack-a-mole with you. You pop up with one outrageously extreme assertion, then go on to the next... 9 minutes ago, Moonbox said: He legitimized it, publicly and unequivocally. That's toothpaste you can't put back in the tube - permanent damage to Ukraine's position and a permanent gift to Putin's propaganda. "He said a stupid thing" is a pretty feeble response, all things considered. Pretty massive "oopsy" if that's all it was. See, here you go again. You said: "he keeps legitimizing" Now, back to whack-a-mole you can't back that up so instead of admitting that you just go back to the original comment we have already discussed. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 27 Report Posted March 27 10 minutes ago, User said: Well... you are trying to have it both ways here. You want to play the extremes saying Trump is not doing anything towards Russia: "While no leverage or pressure was applied to Russia whatsoever. " But then when I point out what he is doing then you want to downplay it. It's not downplaying if the threat is basically meaningless. Please keep pretending that more American sanctions are really going to dial up the pressure on Russia though. That's totally credible. 🙃 10 minutes ago, User said: "he keeps legitimizing" Now, back to whack-a-mole you can't back that up so instead of admitting that you just go back to the original comment we have already discussed. Yes, whack-a-mole indeed. Even the most feeble deflection you can manage counts as a big victory in your little cult-brain. Let's pretend you had a point then: Your argument is that because Trump hasn't handed any further massive propaganda wins to Putin, that means...what, exactly? Beyond your usual word games, what was your point here? Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 27 Report Posted March 27 1 minute ago, Moonbox said: It's not downplaying if the threat is basically meaningless. Please keep pretending that more American sanctions are really going to dial up the pressure on Russia though. That's totally credible. I don't have to pretend anything. You are trying to have a different argument now over how much of a threat something is after you already tried to claim no leverage whatsoever. 2 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Yes, whack-a-mole indeed. Even the most feeble deflection you can manage counts as a big victory in your little cult-brain. Let's pretend you had a point then: Your argument is that because Trump hasn't handed any further massive propaganda wins to Putin, that means...what, exactly? Beyond your usual word games, what was your point here? See, now you are just playing dishonest games. My argument is that your absurd assertion was wrong. It would be so much simpler if you just owned up to it. Quote
Moonbox Posted March 27 Report Posted March 27 19 minutes ago, User said: I don't have to pretend anything. You are trying to have a different argument now over how much of a threat something is after you already tried to claim no leverage whatsoever. What's the relevant point here? Whether Trump has actually applied any meaningful pressure, or my wording of my phrase? Since even you know that these sanction threats amount to little, the only thing you have left is to obfuscate and play your usual word games. 29 minutes ago, User said: See, now you are just playing dishonest games. My argument is that your absurd assertion was wrong. Which one is that? That this wasn't a massive propaganda win for Putin, handed on a platter by Trump? OOookay. 🤡 Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
User Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 2 hours ago, Moonbox said: What's the relevant point here? Whether Trump has actually applied any meaningful pressure, or my wording of my phrase? Since even you know that these sanction threats amount to little, the only thing you have left is to obfuscate and play your usual word games. I already made the relevant point... lets go back to the beginning: 2 hours ago, Moonbox said: Which one is that? That this wasn't a massive propaganda win for Putin, handed on a platter by Trump? OOookay. Oh, looks like you have a short memory. Here you go: 1 Quote
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