Taxes

[Renegade]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Every[one] beneifts". How does everyone benefit? People who donate to charity because it makes them feel good. The recepients obviously benefit. Outside that, how does everyone else benefit?

People in deperate circumstances do deperate things. With no access to charity the crime rate will go up as will the cost of policing and prisons.

I agree but that is only true to a certain extent and there are diminishing returns. Once a minimal level of service is provided for, then there needs to be a determination whether it is more cost effective to spend on policing and corrections rather than charity.

[Riverwind]

Once a minimal level of service is provided for, then there needs to be a determination whether it is more cost effective to spend on policing and corrections rather than charity.

Most certainly. No strings attached charity will not prevent drug addicts from committing crimes - it may actually make their addiction problem worse.

[rogue state]

The US would love us to go, dealing with Alberta is much easier than dealing with Ottawa. We already have an Alberta embassy in Washington because of how much Ottawa has failed in representing us before.

seperation is a grave thing, that can be acquired only with force.

do you think that Canada can stand to be bullied by a minority, and US?

maybe she'll get help from Iran, with all military we need

[BubberMiley]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Every[one] beneifts". How does everyone benefit? People who donate to charity because it makes them feel good. The recepients obviously benefit. Outside that, how does everyone else benefit?

People in deperate circumstances do deperate things. With no access to charity the crime rate will go up as will the cost of policing and prisons.

Not to mention reduced spread of disease, and you don't have so many crippled two-year-olds tugging on your pantleg as you walk down the street like you get in Third World countries.

[Renegade]

Not to mention reduced spread of disease, and you don't have so many crippled two-year-olds tugging on your pantleg as you walk down the street like you get in Third World countries.

Where did you get this from? Show me any evidence that a crippled two-year old is a threat to spread disease.

[Leader Circle]

My tax bill was $42,000 this year, and it was worth every cent.

I hope you made at least $500,000 to pay a tax bill that large!!!

Do you have NO expenses?

Never worth every penny!

[ClearWest]

Most certainly. No strings attached charity will not prevent drug addicts from committing crimes - it may actually make their addiction problem worse.

And what about government charity? When the government donates money to them they get better, but when private charities donate to them, they get worse? I don't think that's the case. I think it's the same.

[geoffrey]

My tax bill was $42,000 this year, and it was worth every cent.

I hope you made at least $500,000 to pay a tax bill that large!!!

Do you have NO expenses?

Never worth every penny!

Don't have to make $500k to pay that bill.

[Renegade]

My tax bill was $42,000 this year, and it was worth every cent.

I hope you made at least $500,000 to pay a tax bill that large!!!

Do you have NO expenses?

Never worth every penny!

Don't have to make $500k to pay that bill.

Depending upon province and individual circumstances, an income of about $130,000 will generate $42000 of taxes.

[BubberMiley]

I'm including property taxes, school taxes, income tax, and GST/PST (approximate). No, you don't need to make anything close to 500K to wind up paying 42K in one year.

[Wilber]

My tax bill was $42,000 this year, and it was worth every cent.

I hope you made at least $500,000 to pay a tax bill that large!!!

Do you have NO expenses?

Never worth every penny!

Where do you live? Even if you lived in Hong Kong which has a flat rate of 15% you would pay $75,000 in income tax on a $500,000 income.

Income tax is only a part of your tax bill. 35% of every liter of fuel you buy is tax. GST, PST, property tax, entertainment tax, liquor tax, food taxes at restaurants, dog licenses, vehicle licenses, yada yada yada. The fact is more than half the average persons income goes out in taxes. Tax freedom day is now into July in most provinces isn't it? That means you are now into the seventh month before the money you earn starts going into your pocket instead of some governments coffers.

The people who think we should be taxed more are free to put their money where there mouth is and write the government a cheque. I'm sure they won't refuse it.

Was the HRDC scandal worth every penny? How about Shawinigate, Adscam, the bloated gun registry? Aboriginal Affairs? Of course we wouldn't know about Aboriginal affairs because we are not allowed to. I'm sure each of us could point to Provincial and Municipal abuses of our money. The feds are the most visible because they affect us all and are the least accountable. All worth every penny? Governments are no different from most people, the more you give them, the harder they will work at finding a place to spend it.

[Riverwind]

That means you are now into the seventh month before the money you earn starts going into your pocket instead of some governments coffers.

The infrastructure provided by gov't allows everyone to earn more than they would otherwise be able to earn - in other words, taxes are not simply a cost - they deliver a benefit too. Paying taxes is really no different than paying rent or a mortgage - it costs a lot of money but you end up with a much more comfortable life as a result.

Was the HRDC scandal worth every penny? How about Shawinigate, Adscam, the bloated gun registry? Aboriginal Affairs?

All a drop in the $300 billion/year bucket that the federal/provincial/municipal gov'ts spend each year. Judging the worth of government spending based on a few ill conceived projects is like judging the worth of the CPC party based on the conduct of Grewal.

[Renegade]

The infrastructure provided by gov't allows everyone to earn more than they would otherwise be able to earn - in other words, taxes are not simply a cost - they deliver a benefit too. Paying taxes is really no different than paying rent or a mortgage - it costs a lot of money but you end up with a much more comfortable life as a result.

Riverwind, you are making some extremely broad generalizaions here. Not all taxes pay infrastructure. Some taxes are nothing but income redistribution and are very much just overhead. With rent or a mortgage, the payors are also the beneficiaries to the extent they pay. This is not true of many taxes. For example taxes directed to healthcare primarily benefit the old and very young, because their healthcare cost are much higher than average.

I agree that there are some infrastructure costs to which taxes are directed and are necessary contributor to earning, however your broad generalization needs to be qualified.

[Wilber]

The infrastructure provided by gov't allows everyone to earn more than they would otherwise be able to earn - in other words, taxes are not simply a cost - they deliver a benefit too. Paying taxes is really no different than paying rent or a mortgage - it costs a lot of money but you end up with a much more comfortable life as a result.

More than debatable in many areas and incidences.

All a drop in the $300 billion/year bucket that the federal/provincial/municipal gov'ts spend each year. Judging the worth of government spending based on a few ill conceived projects is like judging the worth of the CPC party based on the conduct of Grewal.

HRDC, at least a billion. Gun registry, over a billion and growing daily. Aboriginal Affairs, 7 billion. Yup, but a billion here, a billion there and pretty soon you are talking about real money as the man said. Chicken feed to you I suppose but remember whenever someone goes to government for a hand out, it is someone elses money they want.

[Riverwind]

Riverwind, you are making some extremely broad generalizaions here.

No broader that the generalizations Fraser Institute makes when it publishes its 'tax freedom day'.

With rent or a mortgage, the payors are also the beneficiaries to the extent they pay. This is not true of many taxes.

This is a perception - not a fact. Most people take the physical and social infrastructure in our society for granted and do not take it into account when they complain about taxes.

For example taxes directed to healthcare primarily benefit the old and very young, because their healthcare cost are much higher than average.

Private health insurance is the same - most people pay more in premiums than they will ever receive in services. Insurance companies could not survive otherwise.

I am not advocating that taxes be increased, nor am I suggesting that every existing gov't program should continue to exist. I just want to remind people that a large portion of their taxes does pay for things that they indirectly benefit from even if it is not obvious.

[Riverwind]

HRDC, at least a billion. Gun registry, over a billion and growing daily. Aboriginal Affairs, 7 billion. Yup, but a billion here, a billion there and pretty soon you are talking about real money as the man said.

$7 billion/$300 billion = 2.3% = chickenfeed.

You are exagerrating the significance of wasteful spending. BTW - I agree with you that all of those programs are a waste and should never have happened. I just try to put things in their proper perspective.

[geoffrey]

Thats actually untrue. The Federal government doesn't provide for much infrastructure in Canada, and only a slim 1/9 of our money goes to Public Safety and National Defense. So that other 8/9 goes to whatever is the social program of the hour, or transfers between provinces (creating more beaurcracy) and paying interest on the debt.

Leave the money in the provinces and we'd all have way less taxes to pay with the same services.

[Riverwind]

transfers between provinces (creating more beaurcracy) and paying interest on the debt.

Interest on the debt pays for past spending and it is pointless to complain about taxes used for that. Transfers to the provides allow the provinces to pay for the infrastructure. My original point is valid: the majority of taxes go to pay for important social and physical infrastructure even if the current mechanism for spending the money is flawed.

[Wilber]

$7 billion/$300 billion = 2.3% = chickenfeed.

You are exagerrating the significance of wasteful spending. BTW - I agree with you that all of those programs are a waste and should never have happened. I just try to put things in their proper perspective.

Well why don't you just mail of a cheque for an additional 2.3% of your income to cover that chicken feed. I would rather not. Those are just the programs we know that have gone badly awry. What about all those we don't know about and the cost of bureaucracy that is just there for its own sake. It may be changing some with the new regime and Hillier running the show but did you know that there are more military people packing briefcases around Command Center Ottawa than there are in all the regular army battalions and all the operational ships in the Canadian Armed Forces? We have a government that operates by a grant system. Make enough noise and you get a grant from another citizens pocket.

How about these guys.

NCC

[BubberMiley]

So that other 8/9 goes to whatever is the social program of the hour, or transfers between provinces (creating more beaurcracy).

But also creating a more even distribution of wealth.

Leave the money in the provinces and we'd all have way less taxes to pay with the same services.

You just say that because that way all the money would stay in your province. Those of us who enjoy transfer payments would have increased taxes just to maintain the services we have.

[Renegade]

No broader that the generalizations Fraser Institute makes when it publishes its 'tax freedom day'.

But it's not a defense to say "other people are doing it too".

With rent or a mortgage, the payors are also the beneficiaries to the extent they pay. This is not true of many taxes.

This is a perception - not a fact. Most people take the physical and social infrastructure in our society for granted and do not take it into account when they complain about taxes.

Yes, I agree many people do not take into account the services provided, but whether they are getting level of infrastructure services they have paid for depends upon the level of taxes they pay. The wealthy bear a much larger burden relative to the services they are provided. This is not because they have not taken account those services, it is because wealth distribution is also a component of the taxes collected. So they can justifiably complain about the level they are taxed at. One other point, while taxes fund some services, not all of those services are infrastructure which enhances people's ability to earn. For example OAS does not provide a service which enhance the earning power of anyone.

Private health insurance is the same - most people pay more in premiums than they will ever receive in services. Insurance companies could not survive otherwise.

It not the same analogy. private insurance provides the same level of coverage relative to the premium. It doesn't mix in wealth redistribution. If health insurance was run on insurance priniciples, young healthy individuals would be paying less tax because their risk of using the system is less.

I am not advocating that taxes be increased, nor am I suggesting that every existing gov't program should continue to exist. I just want to remind people that a large portion of their taxes does pay for things that they indirectly benefit from even if it is not obvious.

You're not suggesting they be reduced either. I think there are many services provided which are beyond the minimium needed. They don't benefit everyone equally, so when people pay for a service they see little or no value in they rightly complain about taxes.

[geoffrey]

So that other 8/9 goes to whatever is the social program of the hour, or transfers between provinces (creating more beaurcracy).

But also creating a more even distribution of wealth.

Leave the money in the provinces and we'd all have way less taxes to pay with the same services.

You just say that because that way all the money would stay in your province. Those of us who enjoy transfer payments would have increased taxes just to maintain the services we have.

No I say that because we in Alberta had to suffer for a decade before our debt was paid and our budgets started returned the massive surpluses we enjoy.

The other provinces will have to suffer too before they experience the same success. This reminds me of the story of the ant and grasshopper, where the grasshopper works hard all summer saving for the winter, while the ant just plays around. Then in winter, when the grasshopper is enjoying the fruits of his labour, the ant is on the door step demanding equalisation.

Equalisation creates a culture of defeat and entitlement in Canada. Why bother ever improving your provincial economy, if you run it into the ground, Alberta will bail you out!

[Renegade]

But also creating a more even distribution of wealth.

And why is that a good thing? People should earn their wealth, not have it handed to them by the government robbing someone else.

Those of us who enjoy transfer payments would have increased taxes just to maintain the services we have.

So you are for transfer payments out of self-interest? You'd rather someone in another province foot your bill rather than move to a more productive area of the country?

[geoffrey]

So you are for transfer payments out of self-interest? You'd rather someone in another province foot your bill rather than move to a more productive area of the country?

Most people in Canada are for this ridiculous concept. Many more think its good to apply to provinces as a whole too.

Whatever happened to people making their own money, instead of just taking it from others?

[BubberMiley]

Whatever happened to people making their own money, instead of just taking it from others?

Whatever happened to people making their own money instead of raping the earth of its resources for it?