Six Nations occupation at Caledonia

[No truth]

Getting back to the actual occupation, why is it that no one from the OPP has come forward to explain how they made such a mess of the initial raid? I'll be asking my Provincial representative to make sure heads roll for that disaster. I'll also be curious as to why the Army wasn't immediately called ou to deal with an attack on our law enforcement personnel. The next time I get a speeding ticket, I'll simply beat the officer to death and claim I'm one of the "native people".

[Riverwind]

...Certainly everyone here tonight should think carefully upon the figures given in the Royal Commission Report on Aboriginals that 125,000 children went into those schools and 50,000 never came out.

Please show me where the Royal Commission makes such a statement. You can find it online here.

http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ch/rcap/sg/cg_e.html

I have tried to find confirmation for that statement with no luck. I suspect it is a myth conjured up by the native victim industry.

[Temagami Scourge]

River:

This is in the listed Report's bibliography, from Dr. Kevin Arnett. Another excellent source is Dr. John Milloy, who goes into greater detail, but you have to buy his book on genocide. Both of these authors' work were extensively used in the Royal commission.

"...For it was the residential "schools" that constituted the death camps of the Canadian

Holocaust, and within their walls nearly one-half of all aboriginal children

sent there by law died, or disappeared, according to the government's own

statistics.

These 50,000 victims have vanished, as have their corpses, "like they never

existed," according to one survivor. But they did exist; they were innocent

children, and they were killed by beatings and torture, and after being

deliberately exposed to tuberculosis and other diseases by paid employees of

the churches and government, according to a "Final Solution" master plan

devised by the Department of Indian Affairs and the Catholic and Protestant

churches...."

There is more about Indian Affairs and the Churches discussing a "final solution" in 1910...over thirty years before the Nazis put the term to popular use, but I thought just the above quote was sufficient.

Man...it must be nice to deny history...and here I only thought it was Nazi-sympathizers that did that! On this site, you get rank and file Canadians!

[Riverwind]

This is in the listed Report's bibliography, from Dr. Kevin Arnett. Another excellent source is Dr. John Milloy, who goes into greater detail, but you have to buy his book on genocide. Both of these authors' work were extensively used in the Royal commission.

So what? If the report did not include those numbers in their findings then it is an complete and total lie to say "figures given in the Royal Commission Report on Aboriginals". It is quite possible the Royal Commission did not include those figures because the Commission felt the numbers were bogus.

[Temagami Scourge]

Sans Truth:

Getting back to the actual occupation, why is it that no one from the OPP has come forward to explain how they made such a mess of the initial raid?

Actually, you should contact the Turtle Island News on Six Nations. They took a wealth of pictures during the raid, including pictures of the OPP snipers putting their hands up to show that they aren't touching their weapon (It does look like a surrender, but that would be wishful thinking). The fracas was well-documented by Aboriginal media, so try contacting those sources. Mainstream is neither/nor on this issue.

I'll be asking my Provincial representative to make sure heads roll for that disaster.

You do it guy! Work those rights of yours!

I'll also be curious as to why the Army wasn't immediately called ou to deal with an attack on our law enforcement personnel.

Yes...let's call the army for every drunk that swings at a cop. I'm surprised the army didn't come in when the drunken Kaledonians charged the roadblock. they could've grabbed a number of the youths yelling at the peaceful Natives and got them into the army, where their violent ways could be put to effective use.

The next time I get a speeding ticket, I'll simply beat the officer to death and claim I'm one of the "native people".

This is the part I always chuckle at! and they say that Natives are above the law, when rank and file Canadians want to kill the police, like no truth does!

Truth...maybe you should join the army. It builds muscle and backbone when I was in. Try it.

[Temagami Scourge]

River (truth denier)End:

"It is quite possible the Royal Commission did not include those figures because the Commission felt the numbers were bogus ."

Prove it. The men were sourced. The stats were INAC's, and they were sourced.

what are you going to tell us next? Auschwitz was a wonderland with cool kiddy rides?

Gimme a break. You should be proving me wrong (which none of you have been able to do so far).

go nuts.

[Riverwind]

Prove it. The men were sourced. The stats were INAC's, and they were sourced.

I never take any statistic a face value. If someone quotes me a stat I want to know how those stats were collected, what sources of error existed and all of the explainations for the stats (not simply the explaination that support the conclusions the person using the stats wants). Simply saying INAC had some numbers is not good enough. If they are really INAC numbers then show me where they came from.

Let's put it another way: if the commission found that anything close to 50,000 kids disappeared in the schools the report would have had an entire section devoted to that topic. However, the commission report itself makes no mention of it (as far as I can find). The only logical conclusion is the Commission did not take those stats seriously. If the Commision did not take those stats seriously - why should anyone else?

Gimme a break. You should be proving me wrong (which none of you have been able to do so far).

I have proved you wrong: you claimed those stats came from the Royal Commision report. You have admited that was not true and now claim they came from INAC numbers.

[gc1765]

I've never seen any convincing evidence, show me the proof and I'll believe you.

I don't take peoples' word at face value when there is a cheque waiting for them depending on what they say.

To Riverwind and Geoffrey,

Like I said in my previous post, most of the victims will never recieve a single cent. Nor will the church, which has confessed to abuse http://www.presbyterian.ca/residentialschools/ or the government. In fact, it makes them financially liable, so perhaps you should take their word for it. Or maybe you'll believe Dr. Peter Bryce who quoted 50,000 dead, http://hmb.utoronto.ca/HMB438H/weekly_supp...07/genocide.pdf plus references in that document, especially "Bryce, Dr. P.H., The Story of a National Crime, Being a Record of the Health Conditions of the Indians of Canada from 1904-1921 (Ottawa, 1922)", look them up and read them before you post a reply. There were witnesses to these murders whow will never recieve a cent for being a witness. If a person is on trial for murder, would you assume that all of the witnesses had been paid for their testimony? Or if the guilty party confessed, would you believe it then? Cause if I'm ever on trial for muder, I want you on my jury. I don't know how much more evidence you could ask for, there is as much evidence for genocide here in Canada as there was in germany in the 30's/40's, so let me ask you something, do you believe the holocaust really happened? And if so why, where's the proof? And what makes that 'proof' any different from the proof you need that it happened in Canada?

Frankly, I'm tired of aruging with you both, so why don't you do your OWN homework. Visit reserves and talk to elders, call the department of Indian Affairs and ask them for statistics, talk to the churches which ran these schools and learn more. Or if you're too lazy just type 'canada's genocide' or something similar in google and see what you find. All I ask is that you learn more, if you still don't believe it then what have you lost? And if it changes your mind then you will have learned something important. Unless your afraid of the truth...

[Riverwind]

Or maybe you'll believe Dr. Peter Bryce who quoted 50,000 dead, http://hmb.utoronto.ca/HMB438H/weekly_supp...07/genocide.pdf

That 'genocide' report is crap. It tries to take a factual report by Dr Bryce on the appalling health conditions in the residential schools and claim that it is 'evidence' of a deliberate Nazi style extermination program. Every quote by 'Dr Bryce' is taken out of context and in most cases blatantly misinterpreted in ways that support the political agenda of the report. This report is the perfect example of the propaganda and misinformation circulated by the native victim industry.

If you want to support your claims of 'genocide' then find some evidence in the Royal Commission report. That document may not be perfect but it is infinitely more credible than any document produced by the "Truth Commission in Genocide in Canada".

Frankly, I'm tired of arguing with you both, so why don't you do your OWN homework.

I have read through large parts of the Royal Commission report and found nothing to corroborate the 'genocide' claims that you make.

[Temagami Scourge]

I have to agree with gc1765. Even though an abundance of information has been provided vis-a-vis treaties, rights, residential schools and everything else imaginable vindicating Aboriginal Canadians, numerous posters here simply refuse to believe anything that doesn't jive with their ingrained belief that Canada has done oh-so-much for Aboriginal people.

In essence, there is a denial that anything really bad happened to Native kids at residential schools; we have people here who perversely feel that getting repeat butt-rapings in exchange for an education is somehow a good trade-off. We get people like Riverend who say they read "large parts" of the RCAP, and yet have no understanding that the generations of "quality" educational programming at residential schools pumped out boys who were alcoholic abusers and girls who quickly became street whores. Instead, River believes that these social concerns are the Indians own fault because they just aren't quite as "with it" as the average Euro-Canadian...and for proof, River and friends offer "factual" evidence that only Europeans made North America what it is today because the Natives, like all Africans, are incapable of advanced thought.

Of course, no one thinks of what may have happened if things were left alone, but so what?

Additionally, for a guy who supposedly read "large parts" of RCAP, how can he continue to question treaties? If anything is explained in overwhelming detail in the report, it is the treaty-based relationship between the Crown and the First Nations here. Additionally, the report points out one of my favorite points: The treaties are based on eliminating the title of the people who were already here; they were certainly not signed simply because the Crown "loved" Natives so much that they felt the need to provide lands, perpetual funding for housing, medical and education, and other treaty items because their skin was a lovely brown color!

...and yet when you listen to our fellow Canadians, they completely believe that there is no other basis for treaties than race. They insist on this belief by saying that Indians "are immigrants too".

But the piece-de-resistance is this desire on the part of many on this thread who insist that Natives are Canadians and therefore should be treated the same.

Well, if we are "the same", then why doesn't anyone refer to us as Canadians? To me, "sameness" means we are on the same team or same side, but every, single poster here talks about "natives", "Indians", "First Nations" or whatever identifiers they bestow on us. I've yet to see some one say "Gee, it's terrible to see the land issue between the Canadians down at Caledonia." or "...it's too bad that Canadian, Dudley George, was shot and killed by the OPP".

nosiree! I don't think I can be considered a "Canadian" on one hand, when clearly I'm an Indian for every other purpose. So don't give me this "we are the same" crap when hardly anyone truly thinks this way.

[Riverwind]

In essence, there is a denial that anything really bad happened to Native kids at residential schools; we have people here who perversely feel that getting repeat butt-rapings in exchange for an education is somehow a good trade-off.

Some kids were sexually abused at residential schools. Some kids were physically abused. Others were disciplined using techniques that are considered abuse today but were acceptable at the time. Many kids were suffered from the effects of an underfunded system and did not receive adequate food or medical care. All this adds up to a pretty horrible experience. However, your problem is you think you can make a point by claiming 'systematic rape' or 'genocide'. It is those exaggerations that I object to and the reason I find it difficult to believe anything you say. I have already caught you making false statements on this forum.

Instead, River believes that these social concerns are the Indians own fault because they just aren't quite as "with it" as the average Euro-Canadian...

I made no claim that the problems were the fault of natives. If made it clear that I have a big problem with the native victim industry which seeks to push their racist agenda down the throats of Canadians through a campaign of propaganda, exaggeration and outright lies. But that is different from saying that the social plight of natives today is all their fault. I also stated that I don't have a problem spending a lot of money providing assistance provided this assistance is not in the form of permanent race based entitlements.

In River and friends offer "factual" evidence that only Europeans made North America what it is today because the Natives, like all Africans, are incapable of advanced thought.

I made no such statement. I said native society lacked "social institutions necessary to build the sophisticated modern economy". Nothing in that statement implies that natives as individuals are not capable of participating in a modern economy.

Additionally, for a guy who supposedly read "large parts" of RCAP, how can he continue to question treaties? If anything is explained in overwhelming detail in the report, it is the treaty-based relationship between the Crown and the First Nations here.

I realize that there are some legal treaties that are currently enforceable in our court system that give some native groups certain rights. Just like US plantation owners used to have legal documents that entitled them to own another person and all of the children that person created. However, I think any racist law is illegitimate and has no place in our society today no matter what the courts may say.

Well, if we are "the same", then why doesn't anyone refer to us as Canadians? To me, "sameness" means we are on the same team or same side, but every, single poster here talks about "natives", "Indians", "First Nations" or whatever identifiers they bestow on us.

You reap what you sow. If you blockade roads or use the court system to demand special rights because you are "Indians" then don't be surprised if you are called "Indians" and not "Canadians". In fact, that I why I oppose native treaties so strongly: I believe they serve only to increase the racial tensions in our society over time. Especially, if the social conditions in native society improves and the 'sympathy factor' no longer persuades some people to overlook the blatant racism of native treaty rights.

[geoffrey]

Canadians believe in a country with rule of law, which obviously these Indians don't agree with. I can't actually be expected to accept people as fellow citizens that believe that they have a god given right to not follow societies laws.

It is illegal to blockade roads and force people out of jobs on the other side. They should all be arrested. If I did that in protest, it would be quickly ended and I'd be sitting in a cell. But when Indians do it, it's ok.

I shouldn't be blaming the Indians, they are being allowed to do this so why not? It sends their message out clearly and there is no consequences. I should be blaming our elected officals that don't have the backbone to go in there and arrest everyone breaking the law, end the blockade and permenantly jail everyone that attacks cops in the process.

[No truth]

"They took a wealth of pictures during the raid, including pictures of the OPP snipers putting their hands up to show that they aren't touching their weapon (It does look like a surrender, but that would be wishful thinking). "

I don't understand why you'd want our law enforcement officials surrendering to criminals? I think it should be the other way around.

[Temagami Scourge]

River:

Some kids were sexually abused at residential schools. Some kids were physically abused. Others were disciplined using techniques that are considered abuse today but were acceptable at the time. Many kids were suffered from the effects of an underfunded system and did not receive adequate food or medical care. All this adds up to a pretty horrible experience. However, your problem is you think you can make a point by claiming 'systematic rape' or 'genocide'.

Only some were raped? I don't know about you River, but the Canada i prefer to live in doesn't turn a blind eye to child rape. Any rape is bad to me, but apparently, a raped Native child is water off a duck's back in your world.

Only some were physically abused? and even the abuses were nothing out out the ordinary?

Are you sure you read the RCAP River? don't you remeber this excerpt: "In 1896, Agent D.L. Clink refused to return a child to the Red Deer school because he feared "he would beabused". Without ever being reprimanded by the principal, a teacher had beaten children severely on several occasions, one of whom had to be hospitalized. "Such brutality," Clink concluded, "should not be tolerated for a moment" and "would not be tolerated in a white school for a single day in any part of Canada."247"

Hmmmm. 1896 and even then the agent knew that the punishment when beyond the pale, and yet you maintain that this was the norm for that time period?

Buddy, what the kids went through in those schools was the norm for the Marquis de Sade or Genghis Khan, but certainly not Canada. Although I'd love to know what proof you have that shows up the RCAP and make you beleive that residential schools were little more than an all-seasons kids camp.

It is those exaggerations that I object to and the reason I find it difficult to believe anything you say. I have already caught you making false statements on this forum.

If anyone appears to be shovelling the bull river, you win that one hands down. You still haven't disproved the 50,000 dead, and yet two separate posters have given you links citing this figure. In the immoratl words of Jerry Maguire, River, SHOW US THE MONEY!

I made no claim that the problems were the fault of natives.

I know...you just imply it repeatedly. Je comprendre.

If made it clear that I have a big problem with the native victim industry which seeks to push their racist agenda down the throats of Canadians through a campaign of propaganda, exaggeration and outright lies.

a)What victim industry? where are they? What are their names? Show me the Native Victim Industry! Is it anything like the World-wide Jewish banking conspiracy to rule the world? I'm of the impression that many Occidentals need to find scary conspiracies to explain away their own incompetence and why life is sooooooo hard for them.

Historically speaking, I tend to believe that Euro-Canadians hold a lock on the lies and exaggerations. I also find it amusing that you'd accuse Native people of lies and exaggerations given the type of politicians you and your fellow Canadians elect.

But that is different from saying that the social plight of natives today is all their fault. I also stated that I don't have a problem spending a lot of money providing assistance provided this assistance is not in the form of permanent race based entitlements.

Buddy, you can't have one without the other. Your people signed agreements with my people. We traded our land away for certain rights. Just because we are beige is not the point, but rather the fact that we were here first. If you don't like those facts, then pressure your governments to go to war against Aboriginal Canadians, just like your American cousins did, and then feel free to dictate terms to us.

RE: Native North Americans and Africans and their respective continents:

I made no such statement. you didn't? then what is this supposed to mean: "Give me break. North America would be a hopeless basketcase like Africa today if the British/Americans had not overrun the continent."

Pretty clear to me. Just like our African brothers, the arrival of Europeans and their natural superiority made our continents just shine...except for when you gave the Africans back their continent, and they proceeded to turn it into a "basketcase". nah...I think I hear you pretty clearly, River.

I said native society lacked "social institutions necessary to build the sophisticated modern economy". Nothing in that statement implies that natives as individuals are not capable of participating in a modern economy.

You're absolutely right. Nothing you say says natives can't participate in a modern economy...it simply says natives (and I assume other non-Caucasians) are incapable of creating a modern economy.

Well, i'd like to see you re-argue this one in twenty/thirty years time when the Chinese and Indian (the real ones) economies are driving the world.

I realize that there are some legal treaties that are currently enforceable in our court system that give some native groups certain rights.

River....are you sure you know anything about Canadian history? My god...it is terrible to see what a disservice our educational system does to the average Canadian when they haven't a clue about our own history!

Just terrible!

Just like US plantation owners used to have legal documents that entitled them to own another person and all of the children that person created. However, I think any racist law is illegitimate and has no place in our society today no matter what the courts may say.

what...like "whites only" bathrooms, water fountains and buses? Laws creating these things are indeed racist laws, and have since been struck down. I can't think of any other kind of Canadian law that discriminates against any particular group? Can you?

You reap what you sow. If you blockade roads or use the court system to demand special rights because you are "Indians" then don't be surprised if you are called "Indians" and not "Canadians".

Au contraire mon ami! We have been called Indians and a host of other names for the past few centuries. We only became "Canadian" in the 1950's, and even then we weren't described as such. However, since some Canadians have gotten on this "why are they tax exempt" kick over the last decade or so, I see more and more non-Natives telling us that we are Canadian, and no different than anyone else.

That's fine. I believe I'm no different than anyone else. I believe that I have a duty to live up to agreements made by my people. What I can't understand is why you don't?

In fact, that I why I oppose native treaties so strongly: I believe they serve only to increase the racial tensions in our society over time.

that's only because you let yourself get upset. Why not be like your Dad or any of your forebears? They didn't seem too upset by Treaties in their day? Heck, why not do what your forebears did when things got unpleasant for them and leave? You might be happy in the U.S., they beat their Indians fair and square. Jeepers, you might be happy in Europe, where there are no treaties at all!

Especially, if the social conditions in native society improves and the 'sympathy factor' no longer persuades some people to overlook the blatant racism of native treaty rights.

oh...so it's alright (and natural I guess) for euro-Canadians to get ahead, but we certainly can't have those Natives doing it in anyway...it would be, well, unnatural?

[Temagami Scourge]

Geoffy:

"Canadians believe in a country with rule of law, which obviously these Indians don't agree with."

Hunh? No Truth says he wants to waste cops, and you say that the Indians are the problem? Gotta love that double standard! Why not go after him for making such a blaise statement about the Police? Or do you find it funny to talk about killing police officers?

I can't actually be expected to accept people as fellow citizens that believe that they have a god given right to not follow societies laws.

I bet that you look more like Hitler than myself, Pinball Clemons or Olivia Chow.

It is illegal to blockade roads and force people out of jobs on the other side.

Geooffy..do you have a clue as to what you are talking about? No? I didn't think so.

you see geoff...I've been to Kaledonia. many times. Six Nations too. I know lots of people from these parts, and have even been to the blockade (and I'm going there this weekend). I haven't seen any non-Native suffer, unless having them stand at the police tape and yell insults at the Indians keeps them from making an honest dollar. Now, I do know a Native woman who lives three blocks from the protest -in the heart of Kaledonia- and she gets young white fellas walking by her house calling her and her kids "Squaws" and "bitches". She seems to be the only one put out, and yet she makes it to T.O. to work everyday!

They should all be arrested. If I did that in protest, it would be quickly ended and I'd be sitting in a cell. But when Indians do it, it's ok.

That's probably because the Indians have some legal ground to stand on, eh? I've seen every argument in the world that the land in question has been sold, and so far, this has done much good for either the Federal or provincial governments...unless, of course, there is something they know about the land that they haven't bothered to let the rest of Canada know about?

Oh yes, and I certainly hope you'd be arrested. I couldn't see you having a valid anything to fight for.

I shouldn't be blaming the Indians

I know, but you do, so what the heck?

they are being allowed to do this so why not?

Wow...you Caucasians have to think that you rule over everything! The Six Nations people did this of their own accord, they never received permission from non-Natives to protest!

It sends their message out clearly and there is no consequences.

What, like losing the land in question? That's a pretty big consequence to me...especially if there is a question as to the validity of the purchase, never mind the amount, or where the investment went.

I should be blaming our elected officals that don't have the backbone to go in there and arrest everyone breaking the law, end the blockade and permenantly jail everyone that attacks cops in the process.

Well, you get on your MPP and MP's cases. While your at it, why don't you also write the same people and ask them to take the time to solve Native claims across the country, instead of leaving them in limbo and creating further circumstances for more Kaledonias?

Too bad you didn't think about writing your elected reps years ago to solve these claims...this may never of even happened had you done so....but what the heck....I guess you just want to go back to blissfully ignore the Indians again.

[Temagami Scourge]

No truth:

I don't understand why you'd want our law enforcement officials surrendering to criminals? I think it should be the other way around.

Buddy...I don't know why you'd want to joke about killing police officers. I didn't find that funny at all, especially during times like these.

[Temagami Scourge]

River, geoffy,etc:

Hey...Check out this website and look for members of the Native Victim Industry; www.turtleisland.org

They could be anywhere.........

[geoffrey]

Website is down, government must have cut the funding.

[Temagami Scourge]

"Website is down..."

I was just there moments ago. Try again.

[southerncomfort]

I've been reading this with interest, for the most part I agree with Riverwind and others.

rant on.

Some of us choose not to walk through life with a chip on our shoulders and make the best of life, I choose to work for a living and raise my children to be proud of their heritages. I completely disagree with the way Governments have handled this whole issue. It stinks. Self Government, don't think so, not when most native groups don't handle what they have given to them now well.

I see how these people CHOOSE to live, and don't give me that crap about being held down. They have new houses, new cars, their education is paid for, healthcare is paid for ( including dental, optical), no taxes or GST on reserves. If they have to go see a specialist or a dentist in the city, their transportation, hotel and meals are all paid for. Schools lunches are paid for and there is much much more. All that's lacking is motivation and discipline.

The Government a few years back even lowered the bar on entrance standard for aboriginals. Isn't that saying that you simply don't have the intelligence that the rest of Canada has - and you acept that?

The avenues are there but they choose total and complete dependancy. I feel sorry for none, they are choosing to take the money and all the perks, but not to pick themselves up for their betterment and continue to want this humiliation . Anyone who supports continued dependancy on the backs of the rest of Canadians is a fool.

History,- gee, maybe the natives are going to compensate the thousands of slaughtered white women and children with none other than a tomahawk? And while were at it, if the want to live the way their ancestors did I guess that means no snowmobiles, no guns, no helcopters, no boats etc. etc.

Rant off !!!

[Temagami Scourge]

comfort:

You've been reading this with some interest? Usually, that's what people say when they are about to comment on something they have no clue about.

let's see what you say...

"Some of us choose not to walk through life with a chip on our shoulders and make the best of life, I choose to work for a living and raise my children to be proud of their heritages."

who has a chip on their shoulders? When you mention raising your children to be proud of themselves, are you making the blanket assumption that Native folks aren't? Many come here and do just that. I hope you aren't one of them....

I completely disagree with the way Governments have handled this whole issue. It stinks.

In the time since you've been Canadian, have you written to your MP and/or MPP and asked them to resolve Aboriginal issues like land claims and sexual abuse at residential schools? have you cared, or does the topic come up whenever you see the word "blockade" with a picture of an Indian standing there?

Self Government, don't think so, not when most native groups don't handle what they have given to them now well.

Comfort...I am Native. I live in a city and pay taxes. I got my university education before the government recognized that I was, indeed, an indian (although there was no doubt about it my entire life, looking the way I do). I think I'm a pretty smart guy, and I k now lots of other Natives in the same boat. I am a vet, I raise two proud boys, have been married for 18 years 9longer than a lot of white folks i know), and you mean to tell me that -because i'm a card-carrying Indian- i'm incapable of handling my business and need non-Native guidance in how i politic?

geez...If it wasn't for that kind of attitude I might actually be proud to be a Canadian, but I'm not because my fellow Canadians hold me and others like me in such disdain.

personally, I think you could use my leadership, given what yours has been like for the past few decades.

I see how these people CHOOSE to live, and don't give me that crap about being held down.

You've been to my place? how's the garden look? I enjoy shooting hoops with my boys. What makes me so different than my neighbours? Am I whining for more of something?

They have new houses, new cars, their education is paid for, healthcare is paid for ( including dental, optical), no taxes or GST on reserves.

Houses! Cars! Taxes!

What a load of crap. I've been to many reserves and have hung with many urban Aboriginal people, and the only time I've seen new stuff was when it was earned. I've never had a "free" house, i've never had a "free" car, and i've been status for over 20 years now. Where are my trinkets and baubles? I'll tell you Comfort, they are nowhere, because you are feeding us a load of white priviledged bullcrap.

besides, as i've often made this point, do you think it was an unfair trade for all the land called Canada in exchange for medical assistance, education and housing? Because if you don't think its a good trade, I'll certainly take the land back and pay for my own education, housing and medical assistance.

If they have to go see a specialist or a dentist in the city, their transportation, hotel and meals are all paid for.

See above.

Schools lunches are paid for and there is much much more.

what!?...you are blaming us for school lunch programs too? What a minute buddy, these are for all children, not just Aboriginal children. I friggin' knew it...you are a liar making up stuff that you've heard third or fourth hand.

All that's lacking is motivation and discipline.

Do you want to tell me what I lack in motivation and discipline. If I didn't dedicate my own time to these threads, God knows what kind of drivel you'd be spewing out among everyone here. You'd probably be in the same league as River, where you are left to justify child rape as the price for getting an education!

The Government a few years back even lowered the bar on entrance standard for aboriginals. Isn't that saying that you simply don't have the intelligence that the rest of Canada has - and you acept that?

Gee...I certainly don't recall that. Are we living in the same country? To be honest, i'm of the impression that I lose more intelligence in my morning movement than you've committed in ideas to this thread!

The avenues are there but they choose total and complete dependancy.

not really. I'd gladly trade back the rights for the land and go on my own way with no interference from your governmental system. I don't want to give you the appearance of being a burden on you, personally.

I feel sorry for none, they are choosing to take the money

Yep, $1.9 billion for getting raped by priest and reverends!

and all the perks,

Yep, nothing like being overrepresented in the jails or as street prostitutes! Canada just keeps on giving...

but not to pick themselves up for their betterment and continue to want this humiliation . Anyone who supports continued dependancy on the backs of the rest of Canadians is a fool.

I agree with you wholeheartedly here, my friend! As I said, give me back the land and I'm on my way! No more education, housing or medical assistance! We'll just call everything square.

History,- gee, maybe the natives are going to compensate the thousands of slaughtered white women and children with none other than a tomahawk?

sure....I'd gladly do that if you coerce your government into handing back the land for the treaty rights we dealt with. I'd even agree that Natives made residential schools for White folks too! We'll call the enacting legislation the "the White Act".

And while were at it, if the want to live the way their ancestors did I guess that means no snowmobiles, no guns, no helcopters, no boats etc. etc.

Oh...Natives aren't allowed to live in the 21st century either? Tell me this then, comfort, where were your snowmobiles in 1675? Where were your jets in 1809? Where were your helicopters in 1912? How is it that only white people get these things? explain that one to me?

[Gerald]

RE: The Caledonia Land Repatriation

The reclaiming of traditional and legally owned lands by the Six Nations should be a loud and clear message to the Crown in Right of Canada that enough is enough and that Canada must in true partnership with the First Nations of Canada agree on an expedient, meticulous fair and transparent process to settle all land issues with the First Nations of this land.

This Native expropriation of land started receiving media attention at the eleventh hour. Why is it that it is allowed to get to the point of physical confrontation before Canada will act on these land issues? The land in question was illegally taken by Canada and should be returned to the Six Nations and Canada should give financial compensation for loss of use retroactive to the land appropriation by Canada in 1835. This was allegedly a land lease with lease payments forthcoming and this is something that was not honored by Canada. Why did Canada wait until their unethical treatment of the Six Nations forced these sovereign people to act in their future generation’s interest and take matters into their own hands?

The Six Nations submitted a land claim in 1987 in which the Six Nations irrefutably proved that there was no surrender of the land, no fair and equitable compensation for the land and no trust for the alleged lease payments. Canada has steadfastly ignored this very valid land claim and to date have not responded to it.

The Six Nations are taking the land back so that their future generations can have a land base that they can call their own. Canada has always employed delay tactics with all First Nations in the land claims process. The First Nations have limited fiscal resources and any delay tactics utilized by Canada can force the First Nation to frustratingly put their land claim in an indefinite state of abeyance.

What is obviously needed here in an independent, neutral international body that would hear the case from both sides, decide the merits of the case and award any compensation that is owed to the First Nation by Canada. This body should also have the binding authority that must be recognized and followed by both parties in question.

I am a band member from the Sandy Bay First Nation in Manitoba Canada as it is presently known and in the past have worked on my First Nation’s land claim. The biggest problem I saw through being involved in the land claim process through the Indian Claims Commission is that the Department of Indian Affairs (INAC) is the defendant in all land claim cases. INAC is in a blatant conflict of interest as they allegedly have a fiduciary responsibility towards the First Nations. This means they must act in the best interests of the First Nations and yet are working against the First Nations in either stalling or attempting to refute minute details of every claim, incurring legal cost that the First Nations cannot afford.

The Crown in Right of Canada and the Governor-General of Canada must be the ones that actually sit down with the First Nations and negotiate the claim and work with the First Nation on a “Nation to Nation basis and settle the outstanding land issue.

The situation in Caledonia should be a waking call to Canada that First Nations want justice and need land for their growing memberships. Does Canada need another OKA? Ipperwash? Williams Lake? Sun Peaks in British Columbia will be ignored until something happens. But what needs to happen? Does there have to be bloodshed before Canada will start meeting legal domestic and international obligations regarding Treaty Rights?

Why do our First Nation people have to keep on suffering in substandard, third world conditions while mainstream Canada lives off the wealth created through the revenues generated from the sale of resources? The resources and land still legally belong to the First Nations of this land and this issue will be brought to light in the near future as First Nation frustrations are increasing, our populations are growing, the cost of living is growing and yet we as the true owners of this land do not get a fair and equitable share of the vast resources and revenues while mainstream Canada continues to rape and contaminate our lands.

I wholeheartedly support the Six Nations in their endeavor and I realize that this is only the beginning. Canada, take heed, the First Nations are waking up and you will be held accountable for all of your genocidal processes and policies that you have imposed on us. We are supposed to be in partnership with Canada and we ended up as subordinates. (Peasants in our own homeland). Go Six Hundred and thirty four First Nations Go!

Gerald McIvor

Indigenous Citizen of Turtle Island

[geoffrey]

There are legal ways of dealing with a situation and this isn't one of them.

None the less, there is no inherent right to land of your ancestors. That's like me claiming the near 100 acres in Quebec that my great-grandfather first settled in the 1800's. He was the first land owner. Now the land has been sold, do I have a legal right to ask for it back?

Indians should be happy with what they get already, its a pretty sweet deal. No taxes on reserves, free school, free health care. But all they want is more more more. Well, the rest of Canada is sick of it and we are ready to give less less less.

Be Canadian or don't ask for my money thanks. We have laws, and none of these laws gives inherent ownership of land of your ancestors.

We need to end the discrimination. Everyone should get the same social programs, the same tax structure, and have to work the same for their land, housing and schools. I'm sick of having one ethic group rule supreme over the rest of us, I'm a second class citizen despite being the majority.

What angers me further is how much of the privledge bestowed up the Indians is squandered. With all of these programs and spending of around $15,000 per Indian per year, you think they'd be succesful. But they aren't.

What a waste, time to end it. We need to stop being racist in our social programs and treat all Canadians equally. If your claim is that your not Canadian, then stop asking for our money.

[Gerald]

There are legal ways of dealing with a situation and this isn't one of them.

None the less, there is no inherent right to land of your ancestors. That's like me claiming the near 100 acres in Quebec that my great-grandfather first settled in the 1800's. He was the first land owner. Now the land has been sold, do I have a legal right to ask for it back?

Indians should be happy with what they get already, its a pretty sweet deal. No taxes on reserves, free school, free health care. But all they want is more more more. Well, the rest of Canada is sick of it and we are ready to give less less less.

Be Canadian or don't ask for my money thanks. We have laws, and none of these laws gives inherent ownership of land of your ancestors.

We need to end the discrimination. Everyone should get the same social programs, the same tax structure, and have to work the same for their land, housing and schools. I'm sick of having one ethic group rule supreme over the rest of us, I'm a second class citizen despite being the majority.

What angers me further is how much of the privledge bestowed up the Indians is squandered. With all of these programs and spending of around $15,000 per Indian per year, you think they'd be succesful. But they aren't.

What a waste, time to end it. We need to stop being racist in our social programs and treat all Canadians equally. If your claim is that your not Canadian, then stop asking for our money.

We did not and do not ask for"Your Money". The Colonial entity enacted the Indian Act making us wards of the state with no legal rights whatsoever. Once they did this, they imposed the Natural Resources Transfer Act or the NTRA, 1930 effectively taking away First Nations owned resources through legislated theft. The Treaties were and still are peaceful coexistence treaties and Canada breached the treaties even before the ink was dry. The dependence on government funding was imposed by your occupation and is nothing less than a control mechanism that benefits the colonial powers. If the colonial occupation agreed to let us have our own systems and we didn't have to depend on yours, the colonial sqatters would have the highest unemployment rate in the free world. It is in the interest of Canada to keep the First Nations in abject poverty as we are a 9 billion dollar a year industry of misery for you Euro-Canadians. So do not give me your redneck position and cry me a river. Throughout the history of what you guys call Canada, every successive government in collusion with the Churches have tried everything to eradicate the original peoples of this land through various forms of genocide. Yet at the end of the day, we as proud people can still say to you and your fellow rednecks, it is okay, we forgive you , let us move on. The difference between the First Nations and the colonial people is that we are happy with what we have to live on and you people want more and more. Look at the weird weather patterns. You are poisoning mother earth and she is turning on us. Remember this First Nation proverb someday when it is too late to turn back and save mother earth ' When they have cut down the last tree, when they have caught the last fish, when they have polluted the last drop of water, they will realize too late that they cannot eat that almighty dollar" I feel sorry for you and your kind and I pray to the creator that someday you will broaden you narrow mindset and realize the atrocities your systems have committed on my people. Think about it...

[geoffrey]

Gerald,

Your obviously a very intelligent person and tend to argue in a far more rational way then Temagami so I'd be pleased to discuss this with you. I am open-minded on the issue, as with all issues, and my mind could be changed if I was presented sufficent evidence of course.

Now, I have a few questions.

1) Why do Indians (status) have an entitlement to free post-secondary education, free health care and don't pay taxes on reserve income? Or do you not agree that Indians should have these rights above everyone else?

2) Do you acknowledge that the protesters are impacting people's lives and acting quite hypocritically if their argument is that the government is impacting their lives?

3) Do you believe that environmental issues play into the debate at a reasonable level? How can we legislate environmental damage compensation? Are the Indians not benefitting through more transfers to reserves from our economic progress that has caused this pollution? Would Indians then be responsible for their environmental damage, such as the 3 days of toxic air pollution my community had when the T'su Tina reservation set their garbage dump ablaze?

4) What resource ownership do you expect? Many Alberta reservations lease their land to oil companies and make a great deal of money off it, I think this is fair within the current system. I can't see how you could ask for more?

5) What is your pragmatic solution to either adapt all Indians to modern society or to support a viable live off the land only reservation system?

Answer what you wish, I look forward to hearing them.