Milk Concentrate Imports

[August1991]

I am not just defending dairy farmers in Ontario and Quebec, i'm defending the industry as a whole, there are some outfits out here in the prairies too. Ag isn't profitable due to corporations being their greedy selves.

....

Umm ag is modernized, we are without a shadow of a doubt one of the most efficient industries in the country, our farm and others run at over 100% efficiency in that our crops yielded more than we thought, have you seen some of the brand new machinery out there, if that's not modern i don't know what is.

Blueblood, you keep saying that Canada's dairy farms are efficient. They're not. The only way they can survive is to forbid any imports, and operate in an artificial environment.

The simple fact is that New Zealand farms (not big corporations) can produce milk at much lower cost, even shipping it to us, than we can produce it ourselves. If New Zealand could freely send us milk (concentrate or other), our dairy products would be cheaper.

Why would New Zealand send us milk? Because we would send them something in return - for example, aluminium, oil or computer programmes. Since they don't send us milk, we don't send them aluminium - and this makes both them and us poorer. Agricultural protection/subsidies just hurt other sectors of our economy, the things we do well.

The truly sad fact is that some Canadian dairy farms probably can produce milk better than New Zealand can. But we'll never know which ones as long as we have supply management and quotas on imports. This policy allows the lousy farm.s to hide among the good ones.

Blueblood, all your claims about the efficiency of Canada's agriculture make about much sense as running a race where the competitors must put 20 kg weights on their backs.

As I say though, Canada's agricultural sector is going to get hit on environmental issues - not the common sense of free trade. Pork farms, for example, are notorious for harming the environment.

[blueblood]

I am not just defending dairy farmers in Ontario and Quebec, i'm defending the industry as a whole, there are some outfits out here in the prairies too. Ag isn't profitable due to corporations being their greedy selves.

....

Umm ag is modernized, we are without a shadow of a doubt one of the most efficient industries in the country, our farm and others run at over 100% efficiency in that our crops yielded more than we thought, have you seen some of the brand new machinery out there, if that's not modern i don't know what is.

Blueblood, you keep saying that Canada's dairy farms are efficient. They're not. The only way they can survive is to forbid any imports, and operate in an artificial environment.

The simple fact is that New Zealand farms (not big corporations) can produce milk at much lower cost, even shipping it to us, than we can produce it ourselves. If New Zealand could freely send us milk (concentrate or other), our dairy products would be cheaper.

Why would New Zealand send us milk? Because we would send them something in return - for example, aluminium, oil or computer programmes. Since they don't send us milk, we don't send them aluminium - and this makes both them and us poorer. Agricultural protection/subsidies just hurt other sectors of our economy, the things we do well.

The truly sad fact is that some Canadian dairy farms probably can produce milk better than New Zealand can. But we'll never know which ones as long as we have supply management and quotas on imports. This policy allows the lousy farm.s to hide among the good ones.

Blueblood, all your claims about the efficiency of Canada's agriculture make about much sense as running a race where the competitors must put 20 kg weights on their backs.

As I say though, Canada's agricultural sector is going to get hit on environmental issues - not the common sense of free trade. Pork farms, for example, are notorious for harming the environment.

Well if New Zealand decides to go under supply management system like us, their farmers are probably not going to complain, we still get our milk, they still get theirs, and everyones fat and happy. Your point does make sense though in the fact of importing cars from overseas, they are fuel efficient, cheap, but they are stealing the market share from us, so we make fuel effecient cheap cars to compete, but they've established themself, still stealing market share and a lot of Canadian factory workers are left out in the cold and that's not cool. I would sooner have lots of small Canadian car companies competing and we get pretty low cost cars. I mean our milk is not terribly expensive, I believe it is priced fair, and I believe there is nothing wrong with our system -> Canada benefits. I've already mentioned what would probably happen if we opened it up in my previous posts, not a good idea if you ask me. If New Zealand is exporting milk at rock bottom prices, like we are with grain and canola I'd hate to see the shape of their industry, it would appear it would be in some sort of trouble. If New Zealand wants to export us something, send us the wool, I hear they have a well run wool industry, then we'll hook them up with something. The EU has very high Ag subsidies and their economy seems to be doing pretty well by the looks of it. If New Zealand wants to export milk so bad then export to a country that doesn't have a dairy industry and can send them something back that they DON'T have. I truly believe that keeping things small results in more efficiency, helps out more people, and results in a lower cost to the consumer. How is canadian ag inefficient, the dairy farms are spic and span, high tech, and produce high volumes of milk sounds efficient to me, I can feed 135 people, it's ridiculously efficient, it's more efficient than it's ever been and is getting more efficient (in terms of produce), what makes sense as running a race with 20 kg weights is the fact that we are getting the screws put to us from corporations in the ag business sector. It's been proven that if ALL export subsidies are removed the gate price will only increase by 3% NFU website. I don't see what your problem is with spreading out the wealth and people paying and getting fair prices for their work and milk. Sure there are some lousy farms, but at the end of the day all the milk is tasting the same to me.

Your right in the fact that the only way we can survive is to cap imports and operate in an artificial environment, I have no problem with that and in fact embrace that idea. Your also right in that it will be environmental issues taking down some farms. It's the super duper big corporate boys that are the worst environmental polluters and i'd like to see them go down. Me, I got carbon credits, practice zero till, am debating on accepting 100 bucks an acre one time fee to not log the ravine behind my house from an environmental firm, I like those environmental policies, they save me money.

To end off I'll ask this question would you rather pay a fair price, support the few thousand Canadian dairy farmers, or under free trade or as I like to call it Feudalism with a mask, eventually pay a ridiculously inflated price, supporting a few non-Canadian firms (i.e. Cargill, Tyson)? (Look at what I pay for fertilizer with only 3 big boys to pick from, jeez)

[August1991]

Your right in the fact that the only way we can survive is to cap imports and operate in an artificial environment, I have no problem with that and in fact embrace that idea.

Embrace the idea?

Well, blueblood, you get points for honesty.

Your also right in that it will be environmental issues taking down some farms. It's the super duper big corporate boys that are the worst environmental polluters and i'd like to see them go down.

You're wrong. Ordinary farmers are the worst environmental offenders because they've been able to sneak under the radar screen, and the farmers know it.

But ordinary Canadian farmers are going to caught once urban, progressive voters - the Paul McCartneys of the world - catch on to them.

Pork farmers are the worse, but dairy farmers are bad too. Corn and canola deserve critical reports. And I don't want to talk about GMO.

Me, I got carbon credits, practice zero till, am debating on accepting 100 bucks an acre one time fee to not log the ravine behind my house from an environmental firm, I like those environmental policies, they save me money.

Carbon credits? You have a carbon "bank". Someone else made the deposit, and your only claim is the interest. How much CO2 will your land/forest eliminate? Probably little or none since dead trees emit the CO2 they contain.

You can only claim credit if you are planting new trees. Are you?

To end off I'll ask this question would you rather pay a fair price, support the few thousand Canadian dairy farmers, or under free trade or as I like to call it Feudalism with a mask, eventually pay a ridiculously inflated price, supporting a few non-Canadian firms (i.e. Cargill, Tyson)? (Look at what I pay for fertilizer with only 3 big boys to pick from, jeez)

I see no more reason to pay money to Canadian dairy farmers than to pay money to Canadian computer programmers.

Sorry, blueblood, but 30 years ago, Canadians might have supported the family farm. No more.

I think families with young children deserve cash - not dairy farmers. $120,000 per family? If I were a dairy farmer, I'd look for a new business.

[blueblood]

Your right in the fact that the only way we can survive is to cap imports and operate in an artificial environment, I have no problem with that and in fact embrace that idea.

Embrace the idea?

Well, blueblood, you get points for honesty.

Your also right in that it will be environmental issues taking down some farms. It's the super duper big corporate boys that are the worst environmental polluters and i'd like to see them go down.

You're wrong. Ordinary farmers are the worst environmental offenders because they've been able to sneak under the radar screen, and the farmers know it.

But ordinary Canadian farmers are going to caught once urban, progressive voters - the Paul McCartneys of the world - catch on to them.

Pork farmers are the worse, but dairy farmers are bad too. Corn and canola deserve critical reports. And I don't want to talk about GMO.

I'll say right now that I practice some environmentally sound processes, and a lot of times I pollute in some way or another, that's the game. A lot have been able to get away with it because we live in an area large enough to somewhat absorb the little bits of pollution we create, the big boys like the packers and pork farmers, don't get away with it cuz they are WAY too big. I see where your coming from on this aspect of it, if those urban guys catch on, We'll get so many environmental and safety regulations slapped on us we'll go broke just to be up to code. I'm scared of that day. Why are we unsafe and pollute that little bit, cuz it's honestly cheapest for us, do I want an unsafe and polluted workplace no, can I afford to bring things up to code no. If we get fair prices and are able to afford to do these things then that is another reason to help us out with Royalty laws and supply management.

[blueblood]

"Carbon credits? You have a carbon "bank". Someone else made the deposit, and your only claim is the interest. How much CO2 will your land/forest eliminate? Probably little or none since dead trees emit the CO2 they contain.

You can only claim credit if you are planting new trees. Are you?"

I can claim credit with zero till practices, and some CO2 eliminated is better than none.

"I see no more reason to pay money to Canadian dairy farmers than to pay money to Canadian computer programmers.

Sorry, blueblood, but 30 years ago, Canadians might have supported the family farm. No more.

I think families with young children deserve cash - not dairy farmers. $120,000 per family? If I were a dairy farmer, I'd look for a new business."

With that statement you just shown that you take the ag industry and food supply for granted and I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry that city boys are so heartless that they can't appreciate where their food comes from and how hard people work to make sure they don't have to do it themselves and can just trot over to the store. The reason to support ag is that you need to eat to live, you don't need a computer program to live. Supporting the many small guys ensures you get a fair price, and not it grossly overinflated by the few big guys. It's win win. We support doctors for 6 figures and they have an important job, why not the guy who makes sure we don't starve, he's on the same level of importance. It would be nice if we could turn off the food spiggot so you could appreciate how easy you got it with us.

[margrace]

Since when does everyone work 9 to 5. I don't. I don't get $120,000 towards my family run business to ensure its profitability every year.

Why are farmers different? They sell a product, they should be expected to stand on their own two feet.

It's not about a dirty farmer image. It's about wanting a free market in agriculture so that consumers get both the highest quality and the most competitive prices.

Peope are more likely to start starving under the 'never adapt, never improve' system we have now. Why bother having more productive argiculture when instead we can just hand out money??

The poverty in Africa has nothing to do with a lack of support to inefficent Eastern Canadian dairy farms. We won't starve if we stop bailing out farmers. There are many wealthy farmers, that know how to run a business. These efficient farmers will take over, and provide us with a higher quality, lower cost product. Last time I checked anyways, it was an oversupply of foodstuffs that was making our farmers poor.

Perhaps before you make all these assessments you should come and work on these so called inefficient eastern farms for a year, or go where my son in law went into the top milk producing area in the US and see what he saw. He came back thoroughly horrified at how bit business ran things.

One of the main ideas is missing in most arguments here, cars are made of metal and steel, Cows are living breathing animals, the same as us, and if you do not treat them as you would your children then catatrophe can happen.

Forcing cows to produce more and more as they do in the US with drugs, which by the way are illegal in Canada, will only result in a poorer unsafe product.

Unless you have walked the walk you do not know what you are talking about.

Today it costs over $25,000 per cow for milk quota, the newer healthier barns and milk parlours start at over a million dollars each. It is a common statement among the farming community today that if you can afford to buy and set up a farm then you are rich enough to retire and you would be far better off to do that.

Our family is starting to really push to get their children into other areas of earning a living because farming is far to hard. They are becoming doctors,nurses and school teachers because it is a much earier way of life and you don't have things like Mad Cow over your head.

Now who will feed us, Canadian food has always been the among the cheapest and safest in the world

[geoffrey]

Perhaps before you make all these assessments you should come and work on these so called inefficient eastern farms for a year, or go where my son in law went into the top milk producing area in the US and see what he saw. He came back thoroughly horrified at how bit business ran things.

One of the main ideas is missing in most arguments here, cars are made of metal and steel, Cows are living breathing animals, the same as us, and if you do not treat them as you would your children then catatrophe can happen.

Forcing cows to produce more and more as they do in the US with drugs, which by the way are illegal in Canada, will only result in a poorer unsafe product.

Great, the drugs that could harm humans are illegal. Having businesses that are efficient and can stand on their feet won't make the drugs legal. I don't see your direction in that.

Cows are not sentient beings, they have no feelings, they don't recongize reality. I could care less if they are kept in a 4x2 stall or in a open meadow to dance their cow dances. The reality of the situation, much like the seal hunt, is that people think animals such as cows have feelings. They don't, no self-actualisation. If it were chimps, I'd agree, but these are freaking cows.

I do not fear the day when the cows rise up from their chains and take over humanity, but apparently some do.

Unless you have walked the walk you do not know what you are talking about.

What is there to understand? The industry needs bailouts to run. It is inefficient.

Today it costs over $25,000 per cow for milk quota, the newer healthier barns and milk parlours start at over a million dollars each. It is a common statement among the farming community today that if you can afford to buy and set up a farm then you are rich enough to retire and you would be far better off to do that.

Good, then they should retire. Let whoever can do it cheaper produce the milk.

Our family is starting to really push to get their children into other areas of earning a living because farming is far to hard. They are becoming doctors,nurses and school teachers because it is a much earier way of life and you don't have things like Mad Cow over your head.

Good plan. Have them educated in things that pay, instead of have them rely on the government for their lives. Excellent choice.

Now who will feed us, Canadian food has always been the among the cheapest and safest in the world

It sure isn't anymore the cheapest.

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I don't see why you think farmers should get money when their business is unprofitable. If my family run oil services business was unprofitable, should the government bail me out? I mean, its a family business after all, providing an 'essiential' service.

How silly.

[margrace]

yep typical reply from someone who has no idea of farming. I hear this quite often. Maybe you should work with animals, evidently you think as do a lot of people that animals are not the same as yourself, we are all animals.

Do animals have feelings? Evidently they do but its easier to eat the meat if you don't have to look the beast in the face. If everyone had to raise and kill their own meat there would be a lot more vegans. HOw do you know cows do not have feelings?

If the market is turned open as you would like then you would drink the milk from the US with the dugs in it. Is this what you want?

A cow can get sick if it is not treated right.They are not machines they are living breathing animals. Losing an animal one has paid $2000 for is a huge lose. Pumping drugs into cows to keep them producing shows up in you body.

Most farms have 100 cows milking at anyone time, in order to sell that milk they must have quota, at $25,000 a cow you do the math. You cannot buy a milking parlour to milk 100 cows for under a million dollars. Where do you think this money comes from, it certainly isn't given by the government. The government owns the quotas and sells them at $25,000 a cow.

The farm machinery people sell the expensive equipment. The barns must be spotless there are very stringent laws in Canada concerning the sale of our milk. If the Bacterial count goes over the accepted limit the milk is dumped on the ground. It only takes on little mistake to contaminate a whole load of milk. Therefore farmers have to be on top of it 24/7.

One new tractor to plough with costs on an average of $100,000, that ain't chicken feed boyo. Most farms must have multiple tractors to harvest their hay and feed.

I hope the day doesn't come when your children go hungry because there is no food. Our farmers feed us.

I hear a lot of anger in your replies, this is what I am saying, people resent having to pay for food, health care and schools, they want to spend their money on the toys not support good healthy products.

[August1991]

Do animals have feelings? Evidently they do but its easier to eat the meat if you don't have to look the beast in the face. If everyone had to raise and kill their own meat there would be a lot more vegans. HOw do you know cows do not have feelings?

What does this have to do with the billions of dollars Canadians are forced to funnel into the pockets of dairy farmers?

A cow can get sick if it is not treated right.They are not machines they are living breathing animals. Losing an animal one has paid $2000 for is a huge lose. Pumping drugs into cows to keep them producing shows up in you body.

If Canadians don't want to drink or consume chemically-enhanced milk, who is going to force them? This has nothing to do with anything.

[geoffrey]

I do want to spend money on a good product, being milk. But I don't want to be ripped off, and I don't want Alberta farmers disadvantaged by the weak industry in the other half of the country. There are people out here, many dairy farmers, that want to sell cheaper, but they aren't allowed to, because the price is inflated to help Quebec and Ontario farmers along.

Do you not want good gas for your car? Or good plastic to make your milk jugs from? Well then you best subsidize my company too!!!

Again, how silly.

I don't need to work in dairy to understand that anyone that requires government bailouts and artifically inflated prices to function is an inefficent burden on the rest of us. Let those farmers that can be profitable survive. Those that can't, like in every other business out there, will have to close up shop.

[Canuck E Stan]

yep typical reply from someone who has no idea of farming.

If the market is turned open as you would like then you would drink the milk from the US with the dugs in it. Is this what you want?

A cow can get sick if it is not treated right.They are not machines they are living breathing animals. Losing an animal one has paid $2000 for is a huge lose. Pumping drugs into cows to keep them producing shows up in you body.

Most farms have 100 cows milking at anyone time, in order to sell that milk they must have quota, at $25,000 a cow you do the math. You cannot buy a milking parlour to milk 100 cows for under a million dollars. Where do you think this money comes from, it certainly isn't given by the government. The government owns the quotas and sells them at $25,000 a cow.

The farm machinery people sell the expensive equipment. The barns must be spotless there are very stringent laws in Canada concerning the sale of our milk. If the Bacterial count goes over the accepted limit the milk is dumped on the ground. It only takes on little mistake to contaminate a whole load of milk. Therefore farmers have to be on top of it 24/7.

One new tractor to plough with costs on an average of $100,000, that ain't chicken feed boyo. Most farms must have multiple tractors to harvest their hay and feed.

I hope the day doesn't come when your children go hungry because there is no food. Our farmers feed us.

I hear a lot of anger in your replies, this is what I am saying, people resent having to pay for food, health care and schools, they want to spend their money on the toys not support good healthy products.

Like a lot of things in life, a person makes decisions based on their personal choices.Farmers have made their's.I don't care to be in the farmer's shoes,because I just don't care about farming.Maybe you should be in the shoes of our soldiers,or construction workers or fishermen.Why should I be concerned about what it costs the farmer to farm. That decision to farm was his and his alone.You seem to resent people doing what they want with their money.I don't hear anyone complaining about paying for food,or health care or schools.I hear people complaining about government handouts and waste.You seem to be making excuses for the farmer,his costs,his lifestye,his lack of income.Everyone makes choices in life and if the lifestyle is too hard to bare,do something else.We are all struggling to make ends meet.Costs are affecting all of us,from housing,to fuel, to day to day living.As much as you would like to believe the farmer is someone special, in actual fact he's no different than the rest of us working smucks.

[Technocrat]

OK.. well after a Looonnngg time away from posting on the forums ill chime in on this one because well... I have a pretty good idea as to what im talking about when it comes to the dairy business. Why? Well I work in the food business. I speak with farmers, processors, distributors, retailers and of course consumers. Basically Ive dealt with the whole supply chain for dairy products in one form or another. By the way I have read the Milk Act for ontario. Its long, its a tedious read, but its interesting... read it you might learn a thing or two.

After reading about the canadian food industry one of the consitent findings was this. Canadians spend the smallest proportion of our total income on food then any other industrialized nation. We HAVE the cheapest food around... we don't spend alot on food compared with other countries YET PEOPLE STILL BITCH ABOUT IT?!?! (I will get the info for the academic article back in about a week, one of my friends in grad school is writing a paper on this and wanted my copy).

A few of the reasons we have cheap food. Well a stable supply helps. It actually creates all sorts of effeciencies that may not be available in a completely open market.

The Dairy Board (DFO in ontario)

After reading the laws regarding the DFO and what they do im glad they are there. Why well milk is one of those substances that is perfect for all sorts of good and bad things. Milk consists of vitamins minerals water, sugars and fat, which in food terms is the perfect breeding ground for microbes that can make you sick if its not handled properly. The DFO ensures that the milk is safe and that throughout the supply chain its handled properly. They also issue quota. Now mistakenly most people think that you buy quota for producing milk, thats not entirely correct. You can actually produce as much milk as you would like on your farm. You just can't transport it. The DFO controls the transportation of milk. Transport milk illegally and you get a huge fine. The DFO by selling quota controls the milk supply. The DFO also works with the dairy processors it takes the orders for milk and will distribute it accordingly. Essentially the DFO knows exactly how much demand there is for raw milk(it gets it from the dairies as all milk MUST be processed for good safety reasons) and sells the quota to supply that demand to farmers. THIS IS EFFICIENT. There is very little waste in this process and it helps dairies by allowing them to know what price they will be purchasing their raw supplies for and ensuring that when the dairy is set up to do a run of milk or cheese that the product raw milk actually arrives when its supposed to, resulting in very little downtime in a modern dairy. Which again is efficient.

Farm

Well a stable supply system helps a farmer because they will know that they will get a target price for their product. This set price allows a farmer to budget, make capital purchases, livestock purchases, hire off farm help if they need it. It essentially helps a farmer by saying you have this much quota, your MAXIMUM income is this, you have these financial obligations. If you want to make a decent living manage your farm accordingly and you should be able to produce a good product and make a little money for your troubles.

Distributors

Distributors actually gain from a managed supply chain as a distributor lives and breathes on a system of operations management. If a truck is sent to a dairy and there is no product to pick up as the dairy cannot get the supply of raw milk then the distributor is suffering huge costs not only direct but also in opportunity costs(which are very real for distributors). Now im not saying the DFO is perfect at supply management, and that a truck has never had to wait at a dairy, what im saying is that these risks are MINIMIZED by a supply management system. If the risks go up for a distributor they must then raise their prices. Which then get passed onto the retailer.

Retailers

(cont'nd) If the price that a distributor charges to a retailer goes up, then naturally the price will also increase at the retail level. Now what most people don't know is that grocery stores operate at extremely low margins. What is extremely low... well ill tell ya 1%... thats it folks a whopping 1%. Next time you go through the check out look at your bill if you spent $100 on groceries you have just made them a profit of $1 thats it. Supply management is a HUGE part of retailing. The king of kings in retailing is of course WalMart, who interestingly enough do not view themselves as retailers. They take the veiw that they are only the platform of which to move products and thats what they do really well. When Walmart lists (stocks) your product they INSIST on a total fill rate for your product that you produce. IE if they order 100million units you better be able to produce 100million units or you will find yourself on the wrong side of the walmart spank machine. Walmart and Loblaws(if you follow loblaws as of late you will know why this is an issue) both follow the Golden Rule of Retail. "You Cannot Sell From an Empty Shelf". Essentially empty space on a shelf is a double whammy as far as costs. You cannot of course sell a unit of goods that isn't there no revenue, the goods that should be there also has an allocated fixed costs for the space it would normally occupy. If a retailer has a consistent supply of goods, the less downtime there is for sales, the more consistent the revenue base is for a retailer the lower the margins have to be to make money, the less a consumer has to pay at the till.

The Consumer

The consumer benifits in many ways. First the product is safe, it is handled for the most part in a proper manner(ie milk usually does not go bad early these days and you won't die from drinking it or get sick<- by the way that saves us on medical costs as well ) Second the consumer benifits from a stable supply of products, ie i can go to the grocery stores anytime and 99.9% of the time I can buy what i need, the consumer doen'st have to waste their money, gas & time. Finally WE SPEND LESS ON OUR GROCERIES yay!!!

I will continue this post when i have more time... for now. Take some time to digest this food for thought.

Cliche.

[August1991]

OK.. well after a Looonnngg time away from posting on the forums ill chime in on this one because well... I have a pretty good idea as to what im talking about when it comes to the dairy business. Why? Well I work in the food business. I speak with farmers, processors, distributors, retailers and of course consumers. Basically Ive dealt with the whole supply chain for dairy products in one form or another. By the way I have read the Milk Act for ontario. Its long, its a tedious read, but its interesting... read it you might learn a thing or two.

Welcome back, Technocrat.

Your arguments are no different from the arguments used by Soviet planners when explaining why Gosplan was a better system than the capitalist West. "Since the government fixes prices, ordinary producers can better plan their production. This removes uncertainty from the supply chain and leads to a more effective use of resources. The government also ensures the safety and standardization of products."

It looks great on paper, but in fact it's a crock.

It didn't work in the Soviet Union and it will ultimately fail in Canada too. Such schemes usually collapse because they run out of other people's money but I think Canada's agricultural supply management scheme may collapse earlier for other reasons. (For example, the environmental practices of farmers will come under scrutiny.)

I will agree that Canada's production quota system probably makes the best of a bad policy. But it too leads to many anomalies, definition of rules (your nuance about transportation is an example) and then further re-definitions.

Let's be honest here. There is a massive transfer of money from food consumers to food producers. Why does this occur? For political reasons (rural voters are over-represented in all parliaments in Canada), farmers get privileged treatment.

After reading about the canadian food industry one of the consitent findings was this. Canadians spend the smallest proportion of our total income on food then any other industrialized nation.

I'd like to see evidence of that claim. I think we spend more than Americans on food, and European agricultural policies are even crazier than ours.

Anyway, food is a big portion of poor people's budgets and Canada is a rich country. Ergo, Canadians don't spend alot on food. Nevertheless, I'll bet we spend more on food than Icelanders, and I'll bet that Icelanders have better quality butter at lower prices than Canadians do. Compare comparables.

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Incidentally, I think that if Canadian farmers were smart, they would move into the free-range, organic, high-quality end of the food market. The government's supply mechanism sets all the wrong incentives for that possibility and so when the collapse occurs, Canadian farmers will suffer tremendously.

The lesson of the Soviet Union is that the government can temporarily provide security and protect people from change. But eventually, you must face the real world. Markets allow changes to occur slowly; government solutions like supply-management are an invitation to tectonic shifts and earthquakes.

[margrace]

There's something wrong here about the free market. The farmers in Ontario,who do not have marketing boards are going broke at an alarming rate. So much for free enterprise. When it cost more to buy the seed to put in the ground than they will get for it at harves time, there has to be something wrong.

Farmers have been blocking the food terminals here and putting thier tractors out on main highways and blocking the roads around the parliament buildings in Ottawa. The mad cow has destroyed a lot of beef farms and subsudized grain products from other countries are making it impossible for farmers to compete.

Something wrong with this scene.

[Technocrat]

"I think that if Canadian farmers were smart, they would move into the free-range, organic, high-quality end of the food market"

Guess what part of the industry i work in. My milk sells @ about 8 bux for 4L. Organic industry sales are 20%+ year after year... YAY!!!

Organics also encourage a farm to be self sufficient. Ie provide its own feed, use crop rotations, compost manure properly to provide fertilizer. There are all sorts of great things about organics, but realistically not everyone can and will shell out the extra $ and frankly i don't expect them to. Generall the organic consumer is the

I agree controlled supply management is probably the best of bad situation. But right now there is no such thing as the "free market in agriculture", certainly not in the Adam Smith sense. The problem lies with the fact that almost every major trading partner that canada has subsidizes either farmers or corporate owned plantations. THIS is the problem. Foriegn subsdies for foreign farmers means that they can export excess crops and sell them internationally at below the cost to produce them. If all subsidies were gone, for all farmers, for the nations in which we trade in agribusiness and food, them im all for scrapping controlled supply management. But the last thing we need is to turn the rural areas of our country into ghettos by leaving everyone high and dry. Think of it this way... how many rural economies would collapse if the majority of farmers went bankrupt? How much latent demand for goods that the cities produce evaporate. The effects are more then just a couple of farmers... its small businesses, towns, and the cities.

I wish it were easy to fix over subsidization of farmers, im not particularly fond of subsidizing any industry. But like most things, its not black nor is it white... its some pain in the ass shade of grey. This is on the table at most WTO meetings and predictable is a major point of contention. Movement to change farm subsidies are extremely slow at the international level. IMHO when the WTO rules that farm subsidies are illegal and cannot be used by governments then i fully support removing the controlled supply chain and farm subsidies. But removing them before hand is basically just screwing our rural population and ourselves.

BTW yeah i know controlled supply was used in the soviet era... it works to a point. Same way as the 'free market' only really works to a point. Neither are perfect. Im under no illusion that this is essentially a temporary fix for a much larger problem that so far our politicians have been either unable or unwilling to really adress. Untill it does, the system should remain in place.

[blueblood]

Holy smoke, what's up ingratefulness, and since I see no one arguing my economic points I'll assume I hit the nail on the head. If anyone has any questions on the free market system just read my previous posts and check out NFU website, yah just look at microsoft and the fertilizer sector, if you don't justify paying 80 dollars to get a good supply of dairy nutrients, I don't justify paying 250 bucks for windows xp or 40 + dollars an acre for fertilizer, THAT'S ridiculous. I don't know but now and throughout history we survived and lived without oil and other stuff, but I'd like to see anyone go a month without food. I mean if it ever came down to it, which is more important? Exactly. Nice to see some people are unappreciative and ignorant. We have the best food supply in the world and it's a crying shame to see you guys crap on it and be so disrespectful towards it, I bet a guy in a third world country wouldn't be talking like that. Look at the NFU website and talk to me about efficiency, theres enough links throughout this forum. It'll be a sad day when we run out of oil and have to use biofuel to power us up, and with the way things are going there won't be much for competion, bo won't your food bill go through the roof. I'll say again keeping it small will keep your prices lower in the long run, you should be thankful there's supply management to keep the little guys producing and happy, God help us if there winds up being 3 big guys though, can you say super inflated prices? Case in point fertilizer and any business dominated by less than five companies. You say free market, I say FEUDALISM. What is it with you guys against Canadians making money? The more the money stays HERE, the better it is for our economy, we are at an advantage where we don't really need to import much and can export quite a bit, why not use this, As far as dairy production goes we should be looking out for number one (Canadain producers), and if only a few thousand can fulfill our 30+ million dairy needs, that's efficient enough. Look at stores, before walmart, all the small canadian stores are making money, keeping the money in Canada thus boosting the Canadian economy, Walmart comes in, where does a lot of our money go? SOUTH!! What are our most economical exports, Oil, minerals, and ag products, I don't think we need to be importing ag products thank you very much. I mean from what I've read here, if you are that against agriculture keep your hypocrite ass out of the grocery store, cuz everytime you buy something, you are supporting us (even though the big corporations are screwing us). If push came to shove, I can honestly say I can live without oil, do I like being high tech and having oil, Yes. Can I honestly say I can live with out it, Yes. Do I WANT to live without oil, No. There is another thing wrong with people in this country, we put our wants over our needs. You say you don't want 80 bucks off your income tax to go to the dairy farmers, well by your logic, I don't WANT 90% + of my 80 grand audit to go to the cities, and a lot of country boys don't either, but I'll pay anyways because what if I need something from the government and the government might end up helping us out. You can say that this is a business all you want, but in reality this is one of the greatest services out there, and as we are providing you with such a great service, SHOW US SOME RESPECT!!! Keep em' coming cuz this is quite an interesting and educational debate.

[Technocrat]

Easiest way to handle this issue,is to ban subsidies to milk producers,the same as we do to tobbacco and alcohol.

Why subsidize something that's no good for you?

Don't Drink Your Milk!

Processing Is the Problem

The path that transforms healthy milk products into allergens and carcinogens begins with modern feeding methods that substitute high-protein, soy-based feeds for fresh green grass and breeding methods to produce cows with abnormally large pituitary glands so that they produce three times more milk than the old fashioned scrub cow. These cows need antibiotics to keep them well.

Their milk is then pasteurized so that all valuable enzymes are destroyed (lactase for the assimilation of lactose; galactase for the assimilation of galactose; phosphatase for the assimilation of calcium).

Literally dozens of other precious enzymes are destroyed in the pasteurization process. Without them, milk is very difficult to digest. The human pancreas is not always able to produce these enzymes; over-stress of the pancreas can lead to diabetes and other diseases.

The butterfat of commercial milk is homogenized, subjecting it to rancidity. Even worse, butterfat may be removed altogether. Skim milk is sold as a health food, but the truth is that butter-fat is in milk for a reason.

Without it the body cannot absorb and utilize the vitamins and minerals in the water fraction of the milk. Along with valuable trace minerals and short chain fatty acids, butterfat is America's best source of preformed vitamin A.

Synthetic vitamin D, known to be toxic to the liver, is added to replace the natural vitamin D complex in butterfat. Butterfat also contains re-arranged acids which have strong anti-carcinogenic properties.

Non-fat dried milk is added to 1% and 2% milk. Unlike the cholesterol in fresh milk, which plays a variety of health promoting roles, the cholesterol in non-fat dried milk is oxidized and it is this rancid cholesterol that promotes heart disease.

CONGRADULATIONS YOU HAVE OFFICIALLY QUOTED A CERTIFIED QUACK!!!!

Dr. Joseph Mercola is actually listed as a certifiable quack. YAY for promoting questionable health information.

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/index.html

don't beleive everything you read on the internet Canuk E Stan... check your sources, then check theirs.

[geoffrey]

Galileo was a quack too.

Science is just as intolerant and vicious to new ideas as it was back then.

[Technocrat]

lol so your openly defending someone who openly advocates fake cures, and gives health advice that can seriously harm you or kill you... wow. I guess those 'psychic surgeons' are justified when they charge people a couple grand to cure people of their cancers.

Well the FDA nailed this guy selling unapproved drugs and making false health claims about them. Not to mention other dubious health claims and advice.

Yeah Galileo may have been dubbed a Quack by the church at the time, but he was also a genious and a scientist. Mercola is neither.

[Canuck E Stan]

Technocrat,

I commend you for your findings about the "quack", well done.

It was about the message and not the messanger.

But that doesn't dispell the fact that milk IS NOT the perfect food there is.

Milk is in fact the cause of many thing that make us sick, despite what the Milk marketing board says.

Maybe this site would be better.

Not Milk

Take your own advice and don't believe everything you read.

Dairy Milk really is for Cows.

Moo-oo

[geoffrey]

If that website was at all organized in a fashion I could understand, I'd take a further look.

Techno,

I wasn't defending the quack, I know nothing about the topic so how could I judge? Just be careful about jumping on public bandwagons of hate, unless your an expert in the topic, like a biologist or at the very least a dietican, I don't see how you can label someone a quack. Your just running with public opinion, and that my friend, is a dangerous thing to do.

[Technocrat]

If that website was at all organized in a fashion I could understand, I'd take a further look.

Techno,

I wasn't defending the quack, I know nothing about the topic so how could I judge? Just be careful about jumping on public bandwagons of hate, unless your an expert in the topic, like a biologist or at the very least a dietican, I don't see how you can label someone a quack. Your just running with public opinion, and that my friend, is a dangerous thing to do.

Geoffery... my opinion has been formed by researching the topic. I have spent quite a bit of time reading about Mercola and his likes. It takes some digging but you can usually find a reason for what they say. An example, the NOT MILK website, is a perfect example. Robert Cohen the founder of www.notmilk.com also happens to sell his own machine to make soy drinks... hmmm vested interest... i think soooooo. Hell Ill even state up front, i have a vested interest, dairy products help pay my bills. There ya see up front. I would like to say though that im trying not to misrepresent the facts or skew them in a different light. Everyone in some way shape or form is biased. Im trying to inform you that there is alot of misinformation about almost every food product there is... so really really question peoples motives.

Milk is not a magic food to cure all cures. Its not. Its just a food. In moderate quantaties it can be benificial. Just like most food, you eat in excess then it can become detrimental. Some people are allergic to casien(milk protein) or lactose intollerant(genetic condition where your body stops producting the enzyme lactase, it really depends on your ethnic background). Milk is not for everyone.

Saying milk is for cows is a fallicious argument. Im pretty sure an apple was meant to help seed another apple tree but we still eat them. Im pretty sure a soy bean was never meant to be squeezed and drank yet, they are. Its just another way of aquiring nutrients, thats all.

I would like to bring the discussion back to the topic. The Quota System.

[Canuck E Stan]

Milk is not a magic food to cure all cures. Its not. Its just a food. In moderate quantaties it can be benificial. Just like most food, you eat in excess then it can become detrimental. Some people are allergic to casien(milk protein) or lactose intollerant(genetic condition where your body stops producting the enzyme lactase, it really depends on your ethnic background). Milk is not for everyone.

I would like to bring the discussion back to the topic. The Quota System.

I'm reading here an admission that milk is not all it's made out to be. It can cause problems and is not the only source for good health. Other foods can replace it's health benefits. It has problems the same as alcohol,tobbacco, ect.,ect. I don't see subsidies being given out by the government to alcohol or tobbacco or foods that give the same nutrients as milk.Milk is just another food.

Sorry but, it does not deserve special treatment,nor do the people who produce it.

[margrace]

There's something wrong here about the free market. The farmers in Ontario,who do not have marketing boards are going broke at an alarming rate. So much for free enterprise. When it cost more to buy the seed to put in the ground than they will get for it at harves time, there has to be something wrong.

Farmers have been blocking the food terminals here and putting thier tractors out on main highways and blocking the roads around the parliament buildings in Ottawa. The mad cow has destroyed a lot of beef farms and subsudized grain products from other countries are making it impossible for farmers to compete.

Something wrong with this scene.

No one addressed this. If the free market is so good why are the only farmers in Ontario able to make a living producing milk. Isn't there something wrong with this scene.

[Technocrat]

Milk is not a magic food to cure all cures. Its not. Its just a food. In moderate quantaties it can be benificial. Just like most food, you eat in excess then it can become detrimental. Some people are allergic to casien(milk protein) or lactose intollerant(genetic condition where your body stops producting the enzyme lactase, it really depends on your ethnic background). Milk is not for everyone.

I would like to bring the discussion back to the topic. The Quota System.

I'm reading here an admission that milk is not all it's made out to be. It can cause problems and is not the only source for good health. Other foods can replace it's health benefits. It has problems the same as alcohol,tobbacco, ect.,ect. I don't see subsidies being given out by the government to alcohol or tobbacco or foods that give the same nutrients as milk.Milk is just another food.

Sorry but, it does not deserve special treatment,nor do the people who produce it.

No Canuk E Stan... there is not admission that milk is bad for you or whatever the hell your trying to read into what im saying. Milk & dairy products are very good for you there is a reason its one of the 4 food groups. Yes ther are alternatives... but there not for everyone. I personally can't stand the wannabe dairy products... imho their gross and don't even compare to the real thing. (soy also gives me uber stinky farts... ewwwwwww)

No one is forcing you to consume dairy products Canuk E Stan, but you can't deny the fact that they are a major component of most peoples diet. Equating milk with alcohol or tobacco is just plain weird... and frankly makes no god damn sense. Im going to read into what you seem to want me to say... would you like me to say that milk is the product of the devil? The first drop of milk that hits your tongue will make your heart explode?? Its part of a healthy diet... for gods sakes, its not part of a crazy fad diet.

You can eat all the soy products you like, but they have their own set of drawbacks. If you would think and be sensible, Im saying that overconsumtion of ANY FOOD, wether it be milk, soy, carbs, meat, fish can and in all probability will be detrimental to your health. A balanced diet is how you stay healthy, an unbalanced diet is how you get sick. Yeesh... can i make it any clearer? Wait Yes I CAN!

BINGO!!! Canada's Food Guide to Healthy Eating

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/food-guide-al..._ciel_ga_e.html

enjoy the read =P

Lets get back to the topic.

margarace... you touched on a point I made earlier. The free market fails, because the model was drawn up a couple hundred years ago before the corporation became the dominant business entity. In the "free" market system, there are supposed to be many small businees entities, not massive corporations that span a country or the globe. Here in lies the failing... economic models are all based on a set of assumtions. Where the free market system falls flat on its face, is in the assumtions. The corporate model for business has changed dramatically over the past 200 years and yet the free market model remains unchanged.

People still tout the free market system as the be all and end all of economics. Its not. Its a great model but its horribly out of date. Im not proposing some overriding socialist economic scheme... but it really bothers me when people state that the 'free market' shall rule the day, and screw everyone in its path.

The other point i would like to make is that in modern agriculture... the free market has little to do with the prices we pay for our food. Globally most commercial agriculture is subsidized... removing Canada's subsidies before the rest of the world is just going to screw us and the farmers first. When there is general world concensus on removing subsidies(im not holding my breath for this to happen anytime soon) then I say remove the subsidies. But not a moment before.