Prayer Rooms in Schools

[Slavik44]

But most people here are only saying that people of all faiths Christian, Muslim, or whatever should have an area designated for prayer that they could choose to go to if they so desired.

When I was a student, I advocated for a similar area designated for masturbation, but it didn't fly.

your telling me your school didn't have a bathroom???

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sami

You wrote- " We are a secular country, not a Muslim and not a Christian one."

According to 2001 census we are a primarily Christian country and NOT a secular country.

I belive you might be somewhat mistaken, When describing Canada as a secular nation the attempt is not to say that the country is runing around with Athiests but it is to say that in theory the laws of the land and legal code are not designed to favour or endorse one particular religion, so yes Canada should be seen as a secular nation.

[Leafless]

Slavik

You wrote- " so yes Canada should be seen as a secular nation."

I made an error four posts back when I said- " The point Sami was trying to make I think, was that Canada is not a secular country (church controlled) compared to other religious controlled countries like Islamic countries."

What I meant to say was... Canada is a secular country (not church controlled) and what your saying our legal code does not support any particular religion is not exactly correct either.

But not everyone agrees that the Charter was implemented in a democratic way in 1982 when it was added to our original BNA Act by excluding a national referendum.

What right does the government have to seperate church and state when Christianity and it's traditons have built this country?

Regardless our Charter does support elements of the Catholic religion over any other religion so in that sense the country cannot be considered a fully secular country but rather a partial one.

Canadians are entitled to their religious beliefs concerning the majority Christian religion and with non- government support I think helps destroys the binding force concerning unity and sells out our countries religious traditions.

[thejollyroger]

I belive you might be somewhat mistaken, When describing Canada as a secular nation the attempt is not to say that the country is runing around with Athiests but it is to say that in theory the laws of the land and legal code are not designed to favour or endorse one particular religion, so yes Canada should be seen as a secular nation.

I think Canada makes a decent effort to be secular. If you look closely you will see that Canada only recognises religions that have a deity. They do not recognise Humanists as a religious organization what-so-ever even though by definition Humanism is a religion. In the US Humanist are fully recognized by the governmennt and in fact allowed to be legally registered as a religious organization. A small oversight in Canada, but the point is that being a truly secular society is very difficult to accomplish. I would conceed that we are very close however and it is the intention of Canada to be so.

P.S Christianity did not built Canada...... Canadians did.

[Leafless]

thejolyrodger

You wrote- " P.S. Christianity did not build Canada ...Canadians did."

One would have to very naive not to admit Canadian Christians were responsible for the building of Canada in the same religious fashion of the U.S.

Christianity provided support for the conventional concept of marriage in Canada encouraging strong family ties and bonds in conjunction with government and buisness suppling the commercial resources to make this union viable through a concept of democracy and capitalism.

Our system excells all others on the planet and is taken advantage of by other free and democratic countries mainly with great thanks to the U.S. for refining and encorporating this system and the universal language of the world English.

Even Islamics and other socities ruled by religion are flocking to Canada to take advantage of the great system built by MAINLY Christians and a democratic government.

We have many things to be thankful for in this country includes Christianity and let's not forget that all important factor.

[Michael Hardner]

One would have to very naive not to admit Canadian Christians were responsible for the building of Canada in the same religious fashion of the U.S.

Christianity provided support for the conventional concept of marriage in Canada encouraging strong family ties and bonds in conjunction with government and buisness suppling the commercial resources to make this union viable through a concept of democracy and capitalism.

Our system excells all others on the planet and is taken advantage of by other free and democratic countries mainly with great thanks to the U.S. for refining and encorporating this system and the universal language of the world English.

Even Islamics and other socities ruled by religion are flocking to Canada to take advantage of the great system built by MAINLY Christians and a democratic government.

We have many things to be thankful for in this country includes Christianity and let's not forget that all important factor.

Leafless:

With all due respect, living in the past is not going to help this country.

Allowing freedom of religion is vital to our status as a forward-thinking democracy. We need to resolve issues revolving around public prayer and secularism with an eye on the future, not the past. As such, our Charter of Rights and Freedoms is a good blueprint for separating church and state, and defining individual rights.

There are many people who want to look backwards, including those who want to blame Christianity for the problems of the past and even make payments and amends for the actions of missionaries many centuries ago. I say, let's all look towards the times to come.

As such, every religion needs to be guaranteed the right to worship. As many posters have pointed out, Christian prayer hasn't been disallowed - it has only been made optional rather than mandatory.

[Leafless]

Michael Hardner

You wrote- " Allowing freedom of religion is vital to our status as a forward thinking democracy. We need to resolve issue's ariund public prayer and secularism with an eye on the future not the past. As such our Charter of rights and Freedom for separating church and state, and defining individual rights."

We already have all the rights you need sire to accomodate in a private manner your specific religion.

The problem though is you want to dominate and accomodate publicly the whims of a specific religion when battle lines have already been drawn up by the previous Liberal government to in fact cater to imported religious views by the separation of church and state especially pertaining to Christianity to accomodate those views.

But now I gather you want government to return to recognizing religion including specific legal rights, but not Christianity but I presume Islamic or some other.

Surley you jest.

You also wrote- " Christian prayer hasen't been disallowed- it has only been made optional rather than manatory."

The Lord's prayer a single short prayer was banned publicly in the classroom's of the nation.

To say it has been made optional is ludicrous as this option is available 'privately' to any person of any religion.

[thejollyroger]

The Lord's prayer a single short prayer was banned publicly in the classroom's of the nation.

Again, can you support this claim with any verifyable literature ?? I'm yet to see literature on a public ban on prayer specifically in Canadian schools.

Christianity has no pecking rights as far as religious organizations in Canada. It needs to be treated equally and fairly like all of the rest. However that must include being separate and free from Government and positions of authority. The people come first not the religion.

[thejollyroger]

To say it has been made optional is ludicrous as this option is available 'privately' to any person of any religion.

Perhaps I'm misreading this and I appologise in advance, but it almost sounds like you believe Christianity should have different rights (if not greater rights) than all other regious beliefs ???

[Michael Hardner]

The Lord's Prayer was dropped by schools without any kind of legal fight that I can remember.

It's a bit of a stretch to say it was 'banned', but you can safely say that the Supremes would have struck down a challenge to allow it in public schools.

Leafless wrote:

But now I gather you want government to return to recognizing religion including specific legal rights, but not Christianity but I presume Islamic or some other.

Since religious freedom is a constitutionally protected right, government has a legal obligation to allow it. That also goes for other entities that operate in Canada.

I don't think the government needs to 'recognize' any religion. It hasn't done that at any time in the past, and I don't think any statement of recognition would mean anything at all.

Surley you jest.

I'm not surly, but I do jest from time to time. Not now, though. Besides, the jest you refer to was your own projection of my opinions, so... really.... you jest.

You also wrote- " Christian prayer hasen't been disallowed- it has only been made optional rather than manatory."

The Lord's prayer a single short prayer was banned publicly in the classroom's of the nation.

Roger has been asking you when/how that happened and now I am asking you that too.

To say it has been made optional is ludicrous as this option is available 'privately' to any person of any religion.

Well, not exactly. Certain religions have requirements surrounding prayer and they have to be accomodated to a degree. It would be a distraction to have Muslims praying in a classroom, don't you think ?

Or would you prefer that option ?

[Leafless]

Michael Hardner

You wrote- " Besides the jest you refer to was your own projection of opinions, so really you jest."

Not quite.

I never complained concerning the 'Lord's Prayer'. This is the nonsense your supporting and now want rights for 'Your religion'.

What a load of BS.

And why don't you plainly tell us what what exactly is your religion is so we can be more precise with replies?

You also wrote-" Rodger has been asking you when/how that happened and now Iam asking you that to"

Yes, Iam well aware of you asking questions!

Anyways all of this started in concerning banning in Sudbury, Ontario, 1988.

The singing of O'Canada and the reciting of the 'Lord's prayer was authorized and made legal originally by Regulation 262, Sec-28-(1) of the Education Act.

Regarding complaints Section 28 of Regulation 262 encouraged or pressured religious minorities to conform to the practices of the Christian majority and that was an infringement of Section 2 (a) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, resulting in a BAN.

You also wrote- " Certain religions have requirements and they have to be accomodated to a degree"

I don't think so.

As far as Iam concerned the Islamic religion is simply to dominating for public exosure to other groups who have a right not to be exposed to that kind of stringent religion with controversial content ( in especially a school) as demonstrated by certain present day followers of that religion.

I wouldn't want my child around a potential Islamic extremist.

[Michael Hardner]

I never complained concerning the 'Lord's Prayer'. This is the nonsense your supporting and now want rights for 'Your religion'.

What a load of BS.

What's my religion ? Maybe you're mixing me up with another poster.

And why don't you plainly tell us what what exactly is your religion is so we can be more precise with replies?

It's immaterial to the argument. You should be able to make a point without having to comment on the person you're discussing with. I can discuss these things with you without knowing what your religion is.

You also wrote-" Rodger has been asking you when/how that happened and now Iam asking you that to"

Yes, Iam well aware of you asking questions!

Anyways all of this started in concerning banning in Sudbury, Ontario, 1988.

The singing of O'Canada and the reciting of the 'Lord's prayer was authorized and made legal originally by Regulation 262, Sec-28-(1) of the Education Act.

Aha ! Yes, you are correct.

You also wrote- " Certain religions have requirements and they have to be accomodated to a degree"

I don't think so.

As far as Iam concerned the Islamic religion is simply to dominating for public exosure to other groups who have a right not to be exposed to that kind of stringent religion with controversial content ( in especially a school) as demonstrated by certain present day followers of that religion.

Your last paragraph is garbled there, but you say something about being exposed to a certain religion. A prayer room would only be used by people of the religion in question, so how would students be 'exposed' to it ?

I wouldn't want my child around a potential Islamic extremist.

Then home school your child. I understand wanting to protect your children from 'the world' but they'll have to live in it sooner or later.

[sami]

I wouldn't want my child around a potential Islamic extremist.

Thank God. I wouldn't want my children exposed to potential bigots.

[Leafless]

Michael Hardner

You wrote- " Aha! Yes, you are correct."

What game are we playing here Mr. Hardner?

Or is it there is simply no conceit in your family?

You also wrote- " A prayer room would only be used by people in question, so how would students be 'exposed to it'."

By simply knowing it's there and being used for support of an extreme religion.

You wrote - " Then home school your child."

Very inappropiate response Mr. Hardner both thoughtless and thankless to a country that allows to acknowledge and accommodate your religious concerns and then turn around and beat the drum to ludicrous religious demands concerning your religion.

[Riverwind]

By simply knowing it's there and being used for support of an extreme religion.

There was a room in my university with a sign on the door called 'Christian Club'. I never went in but passed by almost daily. It's existance certainly did not bother me. A similar room for muslims is no different.

[Leafless]

sami

You wrote- " Thank god. I wouldn't want my children exposed to potential bigots."

There is nothing unreasonably prejudiced and intolerant I said that fits the definiton of a bigot considering acts of extreme violence the world is faced with concerning followers of your specific religion.

I have a right to express discontent with your suggestion of a Muslim prayer room and only hope the legislators of this country see it that way also.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael Hardner

You wrote- " Aha! Yes, you are correct."

What game are we playing here Mr. Hardner?

Or is it there is simply no conceit in your family?

I don't understand. I asked a question, then you answered it.

Thanks for educating me. I had no idea that there was a court case.

You also wrote- " A prayer room would only be used by people in question, so how would students be 'exposed to it'."

By simply knowing it's there and being used for support of an extreme religion.

I see.

Well, I don't think that the courts would see it that way.

I don't think the students can be expected to come home for prayer or to find some other place. I think that it's appropriate for the schools to allow this to happen so that these people can practice their religion. To me, "knowing it's there" isn't enough of an infringement on a non-Islamic's rights to stop these rooms from being used.

You wrote - " Then home school your child."

Very inappropiate response Mr. Hardner both thoughtless and thankless to a country that allows to acknowledge and accommodate your religious concerns and then turn around and beat the drum to ludicrous religious demands concerning your religion.

First of all, you're incorrect in saying that it's my religion. I'm not Muslim.

My comments weren't to my country, which is doing a pretty good job of accomodating people and allowing religious freedom, but to you who doesn't like the idea of your child fraternizing with Muslims. I don't see why you should be thanked for accomodating religious concerns, when you don't want to do that.

You stated that you don't want your child to be exposed to potential future Islamists. Do you mean all Muslims ? Do you think Muslims should be allowed to attend public schools ?

My advice is genuine. If you don't want your child to be near Muslims (it seems that way to me) then you need to home school your child.

[sami]

sami

You wrote- " Thank god. I wouldn't want my children exposed to potential bigots."

There is nothing unreasonably prejudiced and intolerant I said that fits the definiton of a bigot considering acts of extreme violence the world is faced with concerning followers of your specific religion.

I have a right to express discontent with your suggestion of a Muslim prayer room and only hope the legislators of this country see it that way also.

You can use that flawed argument to single out any group. There is more of chance that your child will be exposed to Tamil extremism or Sikh extremism which is way more prevalent in this country then Islamic extremism. Black youths are more likely to commit crimes then any other group so it is better to avoid them too. Sounds reasonable, but it is STILL bigotry. My advice to you is to stop watching CNN and Fox News, it seems that fear is paralyzing your judgment.

You may think that Islam is a bunch of blood thirsty murders. But that’s your uninformed opinion and I really could care less. The school boards and legislators WILL make the right decision because this is Canada and our tolerance and freedoms defines us both nationally and internationally. This is why we one of the more respected countries in the world.

You have a right to your opinions and I have a right to make you accountable for them.

[thejollyroger]

You can use that flawed argument to single out any group. There is more of chance that your child will be exposed to Tamil extremism or Sikh extremism which is way more prevalent in this country then Islamic extremism. Black youths are more likely to commit crimes then any other group so it is better to avoid them too. Sounds reasonable, but it is STILL bigotry. My advice to you is to stop watching CNN and Fox News, it seems that fear is paralyzing your judgment.

You may think that Islam is a bunch of blood thirsty murders. But that’s your uninformed opinion and I really could care less. The school boards and legislators WILL make the right decision because this is Canada and our tolerance and freedoms defines us both nationally and internationally. This is why we one of the more respected countries in the world.

You have a right to your opinions and I have a right to make you accountable for them.

APPLAUSE !!!!

P.S You forgot the catholic clergy as a source of concern...... and statistically speaking they are also more dangerous to children than terrorists.

[Leafless]

Riverwind

You wrote- " There was a room in my university with a sign on the door called the 'Christian Club'. I never went in it but passed by it almost daily. It's existence certaintly did not bother me. A similar room for Muslims is no different."

There is a difference as the Islamic religion is an imported volatile religion as attested by acts of violence throughout the world as we speak. Canada offers you the right to the religion of your choice.

In this country we also have Catholic schools paid for by the tax payer.

It's to bad you don't understand or refuse see the difference concerning Christianity our countries main religion.

[Leafless]

sami

You wrote- " You have a right to your opinions and I have a right to make you accountable to them."

How are you making me accountable concerning my opinions???

As a matter of fact you sound like some sort of disciple rambling on in a dictatorial non-sensensical manner.

Anything I contribute to this board is done purely voluntarily by my hand not yours.

But any further rambling by sami will guarantee pushing the IGNORE button.

[Riverwind]

There is a difference as the Islamic religion is an imported volatile religion as attested by acts of violence throughout the world as we speak. Canada offers you the right to the religion of your choice.

You are making no sense. Christianity and Islam are the same thing as far I am concerned (I don't believe in either). The fact that Canada used to be a largely Christian society is also irrelevant because it is not anymore. If a university can offer a room for a christian club then it can provide a room for the muslim club, a hindu club or a even a jedi club. Providing the room hurts no one.

[Leafless]

Riverwind

You wrote- " Christianity and Islam are the same thing as far as Iam concerned."

And that's what the problem is ...our views differ.

You refuse to acknowledge Christianity relating to the roots of this country and aspects supporting Christianity in our Constitution.

Why not throw away the rest of our culture to?

[Riverwind]

You refuse to acknowledge Christianity relating to the roots of this country and aspects supporting Christianity in our Constitution.

There is absolutely nothing in the consitution that supports Christianity per se. There is this phrase:

Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law

But that phrase does not say that it is the Christian god that is supreme - it just says 'god'.

Why not throw away the rest of our culture to?

Culture changes over time. This is not something that can be stopped nor is always a bad thing. What we need to do as a society is ensure that there is a set of common values that we can agree on. Finding a set of common values requires flexibility - the idea that christianity deserves special treatment is one of the values which can be discarded as part of this process. Democracy, freedom of speach, mutual respect and toterance are much more important values.

[sami]

sami

As a matter of fact you sound like some sort of disciple rambling on in a dictatorial non-sensensical manner.

It is funny that I have that exact same assessment of you.

[thejollyroger]

You refuse to acknowledge Christianity relating to the roots of this country and aspects supporting Christianity in our Constitution.

Why not throw away the rest of our culture to?

If the rest of our culture becomes outdated and as unnecessary as Christianity, then it can fade into history as well. We also have a culture of denying gay rights, abortion rights, womens rights, rights of children and native rights and I'd gladly give up every single one of those parts of our cultural past. Canada was formed in part on all of those ideas as well and that does not mean we should be forced to stay in that mind set. Forced Christianity will take its place along side of the rest of cultural blemishes in history.

The only cultural stigma that I want to see Canada retain is the one that sais we are diverse enough and intelligent enough to move past our differences and mistakes and we are prepared to do better in the future. Perhaps that IS the true culture of Canada ?