US troops killing Iraqi civilians

[newbie]

Ain't this lovely:

The US military is investigating two incidents in which American soldiers killed at least 26 Iraqi civilians and then claimed that they were either guerrillas or had died in cross fire.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle...ticle352819.ece

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1749794

[geoffrey]

Yup, its sad.

[BubberMiley]

Yup, its sad.

Add about three zeroes to that 26.

[geoffrey]

Yup, its sad.

Add about three zeroes to that 26.

Add another zero on top of your zeroes and we get how many Saddam killed in his reign.

[gerryhatrick]

Add another zero on top of your zeroes and we get how many Saddam killed in his reign.

Actually, by most estimates Saddam and the USA are responsible for about the same number of civilian deaths.

Of course Saddam took about 5 times longer to accomplish that.

[BubberMiley]

And the U.S. has been responsible for more women and children. An intensive study by The Lancet Medical Journal from Johns Hopkins University said that by 2004, the Iraq war had killed 100,000 people, half of them women and children.

[geoffrey]

Add another zero on top of your zeroes and we get how many Saddam killed in his reign.

Actually, by most estimates Saddam and the USA are responsible for about the same number of civilian deaths.

Of course Saddam took about 5 times longer to accomplish that.

That is fundamentally false on all accounts.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm#sadhus

That sourced is throughly researched and referenced.

Iraq, Saddam Hussein (1979-2003): 300 000

Human Rights Watch: "twenty-five years of Ba`th Party rule ... murdered or 'disappeared' some quarter of a million Iraqis" [http://www.hrw.org/wr2k4/3.htm]

8/9 Dec. 2003 AP: Total murders

New survey estimates 61,000 residents of Baghdad executed by Saddam.

US Government estimates a total of 300,000 murders

180,000 Kurds k. in Anfal

60,000 Shiites in 1991

50,000 misc. others executed

"Human rights officials" est.: 500,000

Iraqi politicians: over a million

[These don't include the million or so dead in the Iran-Iraq War.]

There is also a difference in that the US doesn't go out and activitely murder people. Saddam did. Colateral damage is different than genocide.

If you actually think the US is out to conduct genocide and is a worse entity than the Ba'ath party, you need to actually learn something on the matter.

The US didn't collect 180,000 Kurds and gas them.

[BubberMiley]

Colateral damage is different than genocide.

Perhaps they are different politically, but when it's your ass, I bet they mean pretty much the same thing.

[scribblet]

And the U.S. has been responsible for more women and children. An intensive study by The Lancet Medical Journal from Johns Hopkins University said that by 2004, the Iraq war had killed 100,000 people, half of them women and children.

That study by the lancet journal has been discredited, or at least widely known that their study was not accurate. I don't have time to look up all the links, but their methodology etc. was flawed and there was no attempt (and no way, probably) to verify how accurate the reports of the causes of death were.

It also seems to me that the majority of Iraqi deaths are from the 'insurgents'.

[gerryhatrick]

That study by the lancet journal has been discredited,

No, it has not.

But regardless of whether it was 100,000, or the 30-40,000 number more accepted by the Bush admin it's still beyond acceptable.

[lost&outofcontrol]

The US didn't collect 180,000 Kurds and gas them.

That is true but the US sold them that gas.

**edit**

Trying to cover it up too.

links to a pdf

[scribblet]

That study by the lancet journal has been discredited,

No, it has not.

But regardless of whether it was 100,000, or the 30-40,000 number more accepted by the Bush admin it's still beyond acceptable.

Do a search and find out, the report was flawed and in error.

Your right the numbers whatever they are are too high, but what would be more interesting is how many Iraqis have been killed by fellow Iraqis.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4525412.stm

The US and UK governments have both said the chaotic situation in Iraq makes it impossible to gather such information accurately.

[cybercoma]

If guerillas aren't wearing uniforms and hiding in neighbourhoods, using civilians for cover, are they considered enemy soldiers?

I'm going to guess probably not. So everyone saying the United States killed 26,000 civilians might be right but only to the extent that they were defending themselves.

[cybercoma]

The US didn't collect 180,000 Kurds and gas them.

That is true but the US sold them that gas.

**edit**

Trying to cover it up too.

links to a pdf

The US has always supported the enemy of their enemies. Not that it makes those nations allies, but if they're going to do the dirty work for the US, so be it. The gas was sold to Iraq at a time when it was fighting with Iran and Saddam has said he gassed the kurds because they were fighting for the enemy.

[Wilber]

And the U.S. has been responsible for more women and children. An intensive study by The Lancet Medical Journal from Johns Hopkins University said that by 2004, the Iraq war had killed 100,000 people, half of them women and children.

Every time a car bomb or suicide bomb goes off, the majority of those killed are almost always Iraqis, killed by Iraqis and other Arabs, not by Americans.

[Montgomery Burns]

Add another zero on top of your zeroes and we get how many Saddam killed in his reign.

Actually, by most estimates Saddam and the USA are responsible for about the same number of civilian deaths.

Of course Saddam took about 5 times longer to accomplish that.

What a load of crap. Yet you have the nerve to call me a lying rightwinger in another thread. You're getting more over-the-top every day.

[Montgomery Burns]

The US didn't collect 180,000 Kurds and gas them.

That is true but the US sold them that gas.

**edit**

Trying to cover it up too.

links to a pdf

The US sold them that gas? What the hell?

Did you even read your link?

Trying to cover it?

Again, did you even read your link?

Your source vindicates the Reagan administration.

[KrustyKidd]

Again, did you even read your link?

Your source vindicates the Reagan administration.

The truth comes from the strangest places doesn't it?

"We also know that Iraq has aquired a CW capability from Western nations, including possibly, a US susiduary"

[scribblet]

And the U.S. has been responsible for more women and children. An intensive study by The Lancet Medical Journal from Johns Hopkins University said that by 2004, the Iraq war had killed 100,000 people, half of them women and children.

Every time a car bomb or suicide bomb goes off, the majority of those killed are almost always Iraqis, killed by Iraqis and other Arabs, not by Americans.

Thats the killer isn't it, it seems to me that Iraqis are killing more Iraqis than anyone else. The Egyptian president yesterday, made quite a strong statement on this turning into a civil war, he actually said the U.S. should not leave or it will get worse.

Wonder where this will all end - I'm guessing it won't end until the U.S. gets a democrat President ?