Now our PM is restricting information from his gov't.

betsy · March 19, 2006

By using the word "admonish", Betsy is implying our troops are already torturing. I bet they would resent that.

What you on about???

Considering Gerry here is suggesting our soldiers may not survive the horror of warfare...that our men are so likely to crack up under extreme pressure....and that our military officers have not learned anything at all from that torture incident involving our own men!

BubberMiley · March 19, 2006

What you on about???

Admonish means to express disapproval, which implies they are doing something wrong, and I don't think anyone said that. Gerry was simply saying that Harper should make it clear where Canada stands, considering their allies, the U.S. have taken the position that torturing their prisoners is necessary.

betsy · March 19, 2006

By using the word "admonish", Betsy is implying our troops are already torturing. I bet they would resent that.

BTW, according to Webster:

Admonish - to caution against specific faults. (i.e. torturing?), to inform or remind.

betsy · March 19, 2006

[We are ALL possible "lunitics" betsy if put into the wrong conditions. That's why I'm demanding our government make sure the wrong conditions don't have a chance to exist.

So how do you propose "making sure the wrong conditions don't have a chance to exist?"

Withdraw from Afghanistan?

betsy · March 19, 2006

So, it's up to us (and the NDP and the Liberals and the Bloc) to protect the troops from incompetents.

You mean, up to the opportunistic party leaders who are already getting ready for the next election?

BubberMiley · March 19, 2006

BTW, according to Webster:
Admonish - to caution against specific faults. (i.e. torturing?), to inform or remind.

I prefer the Oxford, but my Webster says " to express warning or disapproval to especially in a gentle, earnest, or solicitous manner"

But whatever.

stignasty · March 19, 2006

You mean, up to the opportunistic party leaders who are already getting ready for the next election?

Stephen Harper's photo-op seems to fit that description.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/stign...CPCPhoto-op.jpg

geoffrey · March 19, 2006

You mean, up to the opportunistic party leaders who are already getting ready for the next election?

Stephen Harper's photo-op seems to fit that description.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/stign...CPCPhoto-op.jpg

Or the Liberals going from supporting the troops to calling for debate because Harper has an agenda!

The same agenda as the Liberals had... how odd eh? :lol:

Then of course we have Jack, who's always opportunitistic, that wants us out of Afghanistan because there are Americans there. We can't work with the Americans, its bad. Sorry Jack, your auto workers would be out of a job without the Americans, I'd get used to working with them in a hurry.

stignasty · March 19, 2006

You mean, up to the opportunistic party leaders who are already getting ready for the next election?

Stephen Harper's photo-op seems to fit that description.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/stign...CPCPhoto-op.jpg

Or the Liberals going from supporting the troops to calling for debate because Harper has an agenda!

The same agenda as the Liberals had... how odd eh?

Then of course we have Jack, who's always opportunitistic, that wants us out of Afghanistan because there are Americans there. We can't work with the Americans, its bad. Sorry Jack, your auto workers would be out of a job without the Americans, I'd get used to working with them in a hurry.

Well, that's what betsy was saying wasn't it? I was just stating that it's not just the opposition leaders who are playing politics with the troops. I don't remember the supporters of the Prime Minister's trip giving credit to our minister of defence, Bill Graham when he made the same trip in October. Actually, one right-wing statement I saw called it "Bill Graham's pre-body bag tour."

gerryhatrick · March 19, 2006

So, it's up to us (and the NDP and the Liberals and the Bloc) to protect the troops from incompetents.

You mean, up to the opportunistic party leaders who are already getting ready for the next election?

You engage in your partisan nitwittery. I'll watch out for Canada and her troops.

Hicksey · March 20, 2006

Why does it seem to me that the left demands that every time Harper makes a decision that he should hold a press conference and spell it out letter by letter for them to understand?

If I demanded that Martin had told us every time he made a decision, and that the decision made meet my morals and beliefs, you'd rightly call me irrational for asking such a thing. I think that liberals here as arrogant as the Liberals Canadians just dispatched from office for demanding that conservatives they didn't support cowtow to their every wish.

margrace · March 20, 2006

strange that our liberal MP replied to all my emails, now Mr. Clement does not answer, I wonder why, got an answer from his Ontario counterpart though. Wouldn't you think it would be common curtesy to reply to a constituent.

scribblet · March 20, 2006

strange that our liberal MP replied to all my emails, now Mr. Clement does not answer, I wonder why, got an answer from his Ontario counterpart though. Wouldn't you think it would be common curtesy to reply to a constituent.

They usually do, I imagine they are busy right now, I've waited as long as 6 weeks to receive a reply from some, forgot what I was asking.

I've received a reply from my CPC MP, but so far, strangely enough, no reply from my liberal MPP. Guess he's busy too.

sage · March 20, 2006

If I demanded that Martin had told us every time he made a decision, and that the decision made meet my morals and beliefs, you'd rightly call me irrational for asking such a thing. I think that liberals here as arrogant as the Liberals Canadians just dispatched from office for demanding that conservatives they didn't support cowtow to their every wish.

I don't believe the Lib's under Martin were required to justify any decisions, as they never made any.

betsy · March 21, 2006

So, it's up to us (and the NDP and the Liberals and the Bloc) to protect the troops from incompetents.

You mean, up to the opportunistic party leaders who are already getting ready for the next election?

You engage in your partisan nitwittery. I'll watch out for Canada and her troops.

So, you fall back to the same familiar method of rebuttal.......personal attack!

betsy · March 21, 2006

You mean, up to the opportunistic party leaders who are already getting ready for the next election?

Stephen Harper's photo-op seems to fit that description.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/stign...CPCPhoto-op.jpg

Or the Liberals going from supporting the troops to calling for debate because Harper has an agenda!

The same agenda as the Liberals had... how odd eh?

Then of course we have Jack, who's always opportunitistic, that wants us out of Afghanistan because there are Americans there. We can't work with the Americans, its bad. Sorry Jack, your auto workers would be out of a job without the Americans, I'd get used to working with them in a hurry.

Well, that's what betsy was saying wasn't it? I was just stating that it's not just the opposition leaders who are playing politics with the troops. I don't remember the supporters of the Prime Minister's trip giving credit to our minister of defence, Bill Graham when he made the same trip in October. Actually, one right-wing statement I saw called it "Bill Graham's pre-body bag tour."

Nice try.

Harper was there to rally the troops...and God knows they need to have some moral support since it seems some politicians we know (along with their like-minded supporters/media) are beginning undermine the importance of their mission.

Why do we need to give further credit to Bill Graham?

Bear in mind that it was the Liberals who made the commitment to have the troops in Afghanistan...they already have that credit! Harper is just seriously fulfilling that commitment.

As for that quote "Bill Graham's pre-body bag tour", that comment sounds very left-winger. Must have come from someone awfully opposed to Afghanistan. Ask the NDP.

betsy · March 21, 2006

Well, that's what betsy was saying wasn't it? I was just stating that it's not just the opposition leaders who are playing politics with the troops. I don't remember the supporters of the Prime Minister's trip giving credit to our minister of defence, Bill Graham when he made the same trip in October. Actually, one right-wing statement I saw called it "Bill Graham's pre-body bag tour."

Here's where that "Bill Graham pre-body-bag-speaking tour" quote came from:

"Military insiders, report Mike Blanchfield and David Pugliese of CanWest News Service, refer to Mr. Graham's travel plans as a "pre-body-bag speaking tour." Though, Mr. Graham would certainly disagree: Nobody calls them "body-bags" anymore; the au courant term in the United States is "Transit Tube." And, Mr. Graham wants nothing more than the complete integration of Canadian and American military terminology, and more."

http://www.cpcml.ca/Tmld2005/D35151.htm

The way I understand it, the quote came from military insiders...

Montgomery Burns · March 21, 2006

So, it's up to us (and the NDP and the Liberals and the Bloc) to protect the troops from incompetents.

You mean, up to the opportunistic party leaders who are already getting ready for the next election?

You engage in your partisan nitwittery. I'll watch out for Canada and her troops.

Stop the charade Gerry. You are far more concerned about the "rights" of terrorists than you are the brave men and women who defend Canada's freedom.

betsy · March 21, 2006

GerryHatrick, read this!

"Canadians Made Ready for Afghanistan Death Toll

- Chris Cook*, PEJ News, September 15, 2005 -

The nature of the Afghanistan mission has transformed somewhat in the past few months, as has the nature of Canada's military. No longer focussed primarily on "peacekeeping," Canada's forces are being restructured to more resemble the American model.

Graham recently ordered Canadians out of the north of Afghanistan, where they've operated out of Camp Julien for several years, patrolling the streets and near environs of the capital, Kabul. The bulk of the Canadian contingent, one of more than a dozen international military forces in the country, is to be redeployed to the more volatile south and west of the country."

http://www.cpcml.ca/Tmld2005/D35151.htm

Check the date. Since it said that our military was being "restructured to more resemble the American model"....did you ever write a topic during that time voicing out your fear that "resembling the American model" may have included methods of torture?

If I remember correctly, Martin was still in power during that time. Did you ever voice out on this forum demanding from Martin the very same thing you're demanding from Harper now?

betsy · March 21, 2006

Canada's Military Involvement in Afghanistan:

Why Aren't We Having a National Debate?

- Paul Weinberg*, GlobalResearch.ca, August 31, 2005 -

In a season of extreme heat and parliamentary vacations, there's barely a murmur among the political classes about Canadian soldiers hooking up with a failed American-led coalition of counter-insurgents in the volatile Kandahar region of southwest Afghanistan.

But those closely following on-the-ground developments in Afghanistan are astonished that Canadians have sent their military into a stepped-up mission the aims of which have not been debated. They also worry that our military doesn't truly understand the nature of the conflagration.

-------------------

So why was there no demand for a debate?

Why suddenly now? From Jack...hello? The Liberals....yoo-hoo?

Seems hypocritical.

And you wonder why I call them "opportunistic".

And why I say Pseudo-Humanitarian Posturing!

gerryhatrick · March 21, 2006

So why was there no demand for a debate?
Why suddenly now? From Jack...hello? The Liberals....yoo-hoo?

Seems hypocritical.

Not really. Not if you have even the most basic understanding of the situation.

The mission has changed. They've redeployed and started going out on offensive missions.

Hello? :rolleyes:

gerryhatrick · March 21, 2006

So, it's up to us (and the NDP and the Liberals and the Bloc) to protect the troops from incompetents.

You mean, up to the opportunistic party leaders who are already getting ready for the next election?

You engage in your partisan nitwittery. I'll watch out for Canada and her troops.

So, you fall back to the same familiar method of rebuttal.......personal attack!

No, I'm not calling you an "idiot" or anything. I commented on what you're engaging in...the type of debate.

Now that our troops are engaging in more offensive missions and likely to be taking greater numbers of prisoners there is a need to protect our troops against the same pitfalls that befell our Southern friends due to civilian leadership in this area.

That is partisan nitwittery, pure and simple. I'm sure you're a very nice person betsy and I'm not critisizing you personally, just your points here.

betsy · March 21, 2006

So GerryHatrick, answer the questions.

"Canadians Made Ready for Afghanistan Death Toll

- Chris Cook*, PEJ News, September 15, 2005 -

The nature of the Afghanistan mission has transformed somewhat in the past few months, as has the nature of Canada's military. No longer focussed primarily on "peacekeeping," Canada's forces are being restructured to more resemble the American model."

Since Sep 2005, it had been noted the way our military was being re-structured to model the Americans.

Have you or have you not voiced out your fear on this forum that this may include torture?

Have you demanded of Martin what you demand of Harper now?

It's hard to imagine that in the course of 6 short months, your concern over our country's and military's reputation and shame, had suddenly engulfed you in such dramatic proportions.

Of course I try not to think that your topic now (two similar ones ,as a matter of fact) is not due to partisanship.....and that you're not using the situation of our troops as an excuse to find faults with our PM.

But the facts seem to point that way.

So who's practicing partisan nitwittery then?

At the expense of our military?

Unless of course you've demonstrated such same zeal in the past 6 months or so.

gerryhatrick · March 21, 2006

So GerryHatrick, answer the questions.
"Canadians Made Ready for Afghanistan Death Toll

- Chris Cook*, PEJ News, September 15, 2005 -

The nature of the Afghanistan mission has transformed somewhat in the past few months, as has the nature of Canada's military. No longer focussed primarily on "peacekeeping," Canada's forces are being restructured to more resemble the American model."

Since Sep 2005, it had been noted the way our military was being re-structured to model the Americans.

Have you or have you not voiced out your fear on this forum that this may include torture?

Have you demanded of Martin what you demand of Harper now?

Peace, Earth, and Justice News? Gee, must have taken you quite a while to dig that up!

So Peace, Earth, and Justice News noted in September 2005 that our forces were being transformed to resemble the American model, and that a redeployment was on the horizen. And because I didn't notice this in Peace, Earth, and Justice News I'm now a hypocrite?

More nitwittery!

The redeployment has been recent. This fresh straw man of yours is a waste of your time, and more importantly a waste of my time.

betsy · March 21, 2006

The redeployment has been recent. This fresh straw man of yours is a waste of your time, and more importantly a waste of my time.

What RECENT RE-DEPLOYMENT are you talking about?

According to this news report this is current....the very same mission launched by the Liberals.

"New Democrats are also demanding a full parliamentary debate and vote on Canada's military deployment, which has nine months remaining on its current mandate."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20060306/ca...ghan_cda_debate

You seem to know more about this, so please enlighten me.