This is great...

[Cameron]

Armed standoff underway at Moncton motel

Police are surrounding a Moncton hotel where a gunman is believed to be holed up inside the establishment's bar.

Kevin Campbell, who works at a used car dealership next to the motel, said rattled patrons Econo Lodge fled into his building after a man with a gun entered the motel.

The armed man ordered them all out of an area of the motel that contained video lottery machines, said Campbell.

When one man refused to leave his VLT, the gunman put his weapon to the man's head. He then fled, said Campbell.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...cton060310.html

This is ridiculous. These people and VLT's are starting to get on my nerves. I can't believe that people will let themselves go that much, to where they have to put a gun to someones head and then sit down at the machines and play for awhile. I think everyone here is to blame, dumb in-bread people, VLT's, and the Government.

What do you guys think??? I'm fuming right now....

[geoffrey]

I'd like to see VLT's gone, its a dangerously addictive system that definitely causes much grief amongst communities and families.

Get rid of them, the costs to society aren't worth the government revenues.

[Newfie Canadian]

I agree that the costs to society and invidual lives outweighes the revenues, but I suspect the things are here to stay.

The government of NL has issued a directive to lottery companies to reprogram the machines to elminate the stop button, with the aim of trying to make them less addictive.

I'm not sure where the logic is in that, but perhaps it's a start.

[geoffrey]

I don't know how that makes them less addictive either. Weird hey.

I guess the libertarian in me is saying, "Geoff, what the hell buddy, let people spend their money as they please." At the same time, I really have to support a removal of VLT's because I don't think the government should be supporting a system that destroys lives and families.

There is no reasonable purpose in VLTs, besides robbing the generally poor people who play them, in order to add some bucks to the coffers.

This is definite case when a government is in conflict of interest with those it's meant to protect. Banning them cuts revenues to program that will make the govenrment look unfavourable. Supporting VLT's will hurt many people and families.

I don't like it one bit, I want them gone.

VLT's = Exploitive Taxation

[Newfie Canadian]

Here's the local CBC story on it.

http://www.cbc.ca/nl/story/nf_stop_button_20060323.html

Now, Finance Minister Loyola Sullivan has told the Atlantic Lottery Corporation to remove the stop button on VLTs.

The buttons let users play more quickly, which also makes the game more addictive.

"When the numbers are rolling, you push a stop button, it stops so you can get your result and feed it again and run it quickly," said Sullivan.

Ahhhh. Ok.

[Riverwind]

I don't know how that makes them less addictive either. Weird hey.

I don't trust any computer controlled gambling machines because they can manipulate the statistics and produce results which are not truly random. This does not mean the chances of winning are any different but the chances of 'almost' winning are much more than would be expected for a truly random game. This psychologically manipulates gamblers into believing that they should keep playing cause they were 'so close'.

[thejollyroger]

I don't know how that makes them less addictive either. Weird hey.

I don't trust any computer controlled gambling machines because they can manipulate the statistics and produce results which are not truly random. This does not mean the chances of winning are any different but the chances of 'almost' winning are much more than would be expected for a truly random game. This psychologically manipulates gamblers into believing that they should keep playing cause they were 'so close'.

That simply is not true. Addictive and couter productive to an enriched society yes, but skewed in their approach no. The simple truth is that human nature is all that is required to fall victim to their addictive nature.

[geoffrey]

I don't know how that makes them less addictive either. Weird hey.

I don't trust any computer controlled gambling machines because they can manipulate the statistics and produce results which are not truly random. This does not mean the chances of winning are any different but the chances of 'almost' winning are much more than would be expected for a truly random game. This psychologically manipulates gamblers into believing that they should keep playing cause they were 'so close'.

That simply is not true. Addictive and couter productive to an enriched society yes, but skewed in their approach no. The simple truth is that human nature is all that is required to fall victim to their addictive nature.

I actually agree with River. I have played a few hands of VLT blackjack at a bar before, and its like 19... 19... 19... with the VLT getting 20 each time. It's just a little too fishy. Now it just might be my limited personal experience, but I don't think that changes things.

I don't think computerized gambling machines belong in bars at the very least, and I'd like to see them out of casino's too.

They add absolutely nothing to society, except a tax on those that can least afford it. Why can't people do better things with their lives?

[cybercoma]

I don't know how that makes them less addictive either. Weird hey.

I don't trust any computer controlled gambling machines because they can manipulate the statistics and produce results which are not truly random. This does not mean the chances of winning are any different but the chances of 'almost' winning are much more than would be expected for a truly random game. This psychologically manipulates gamblers into believing that they should keep playing cause they were 'so close'.

That simply is not true. Addictive and couter productive to an enriched society yes, but skewed in their approach no. The simple truth is that human nature is all that is required to fall victim to their addictive nature.

I actually agree with River. I have played a few hands of VLT blackjack at a bar before, and its like 19... 19... 19... with the VLT getting 20 each time. It's just a little too fishy. Now it just might be my limited personal experience, but I don't think that changes things.

I don't think computerized gambling machines belong in bars at the very least, and I'd like to see them out of casino's too.

They add absolutely nothing to society, except a tax on those that can least afford it. Why can't people do better things with their lives?

they're setup to win at a certain ratio that is most profitable for the casino/bar/hotel/etc. It's the same type of system as slot machines.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I don't know how that makes them less addictive either. Weird hey.

I don't trust any computer controlled gambling machines because they can manipulate the statistics and produce results which are not truly random. This does not mean the chances of winning are any different but the chances of 'almost' winning are much more than would be expected for a truly random game. This psychologically manipulates gamblers into believing that they should keep playing cause they were 'so close'.

That simply is not true. Addictive and couter productive to an enriched society yes, but skewed in their approach no. The simple truth is that human nature is all that is required to fall victim to their addictive nature.

I actually agree with River. I have played a few hands of VLT blackjack at a bar before, and its like 19... 19... 19... with the VLT getting 20 each time. It's just a little too fishy. Now it just might be my limited personal experience, but I don't think that changes things.

I don't think computerized gambling machines belong in bars at the very least, and I'd like to see them out of casino's too.

They add absolutely nothing to society, except a tax on those that can least afford it. Why can't people do better things with their lives?

First - there is too much money to be made with a pure fair random game to risk doing anything fishy.

Second, IMO in a free society grown adults are free to make choices - even those that harm themselves such as smoking, drinking etc. I wouldn't give that up for anything. The idea of the puritan society with no ills or vices makes me gag. We have enough of a nanny state as it is without papa government telling us what we can and cant do with our money.

Nothin wrong with burning off a hundy or two at the track, the craps table or the VLT IMO.

My two cents.

[geoffrey]

Adults aren't free to play Russian roulette or duel though, and for good reason.

There is a difference from having the freedom to do something and the government supplying a 'drug' to society like VLT's to create a taxation.

It is a very regressive tax, you don't see many exec's at the VLT's, its normally those that probably can't afford to be there.

[BubberMiley]

It is a very regressive tax, you don't see many exec's at the VLT's, its normally those that probably can't afford to be there.

Just because a few people can't control themselves I don't think we should criminalize a simple form of entertainment that the rest of the population is perfectly capable of enjoying in moderation. I would rather see people pay a voluntary tax than see mandatory taxes raised and have to put up with even more whining from the so-called Taxpayers' Federation.

[Riverwind]

Just because a few people can't control themselves I don't think we should criminalize a simple form of entertainment that the rest of the population is perfectly capable of enjoying in moderation. I would rather see people pay a voluntary tax than see mandatory taxes raised and have to put up with even more whining from the so-called Taxpayers' Federation.

I have seen some interesting stats about gambling. Apparently, government casinos make 25% of the revenue from 5% of their clients. In other words, a large piece of the revenue is not coming from healthy people blowing off a little steam at the black jack table - it is coming from people with a gambling problem that are likely destroying their lives trying to feed the habit. So much revenue comes from problem gamblers that some Casinos would not be profitable without problem gamblers.

[geoffrey]

Just because a few people can't control themselves I don't think we should criminalize a simple form of entertainment that the rest of the population is perfectly capable of enjoying in moderation. I would rather see people pay a voluntary tax than see mandatory taxes raised and have to put up with even more whining from the so-called Taxpayers' Federation.

I have seen some interesting stats about gambling. Apparently, government casinos make 25% of the revenue from 5% of their clients. In other words, a large piece of the revenue is not coming from healthy people blowing off a little steam at the black jack table - it is coming from people with a gambling problem that are likely destroying their lives trying to feed the habit. So much revenue comes from problem gamblers that some Casinos would not be profitable without problem gamblers.

Your completely right.

If it was just their lives they were destroying, normally I'd let them have at it. But gambling problems are very special in that it destroys families, and it creates criminal elements as you go further and further into debt from more and more shady sources to finance the habits. Having gambling machines in places where people are intoxicated is just adding to the trouble. The fact that the government takes a huge chunk of the pie too... just angers me further that my society is funded on destroyed lives.

[thejollyroger]

First - there is too much money to be made with a pure fair random game to risk doing anything fishy.

True. The games are tested to death in Canada. They are fair, unless there is a bug. (Opinion from one that has been in the VLY manufacturing industry)

Second, IMO in a free society grown adults are free to make choices - even those that harm themselves such as smoking, drinking etc. I wouldn't give that up for anything. The idea of the puritan society with no ills or vices makes me gag. We have enough of a nanny state as it is without papa government telling us what we can and cant do with our money.

Absolutly not. We pay the government to do this for us. Else we would be ever a slave to ... slavery, corruption, gangs, rape rooms and genocide. So, truth be known, you have never had it to give up. As far as VLT's go, I do not want the single moms/dads leaving their kids home to play VLT's. I don't want seniors wasting their money in VLT's rather than buying prescriptions. I do not want YOU, as my neighbor falling victim to an easily addictive element. Why????? 1. I give a shit and 2. I pay for your demise.

Nothin wrong with burning off a hundy or two at the track, the craps table or the VLT IMO.

All good in moderation!!!. I agree with you in the fact that "I" should be able to do this and can without serious harm to others. But the addiction statistics are stagering and people are getting hurt. There are folks working on better solutions. The current free for all is damaging.

My two cents.

As long as you have two to spare why not

[BubberMiley]

Gambling addicts will be gambling addicts no matter what. If we get rid of VLTs, they'll go online and give their money to whomever. At least with the system we have now, profits can and do go to gambling treatment programs.

[geoffrey]

Go to Casino's and play the table games or something. Even if the VLT's were only in Casino's I'd be more ok with that.

VLT's in places that's primary concept is to sell alcohol is a brutual regressive tax from the provincial governments.

[Nocrap]

I'm really out of touch because I didn't even know what a VLT was. Guess I'm part of the 'nanny' crowd.

The story was troubling and you wonder what made the man so desperate. Financial problems perhaps, although it said that he was known to police, so maybe he just has a few screws loose.

I agree with Geoffrey that putting them in bars is just asking for trouble, because it's no longer a rational decision. We may make the 'choice' to gamble (though at the time not view it as a way to pay taxes), but if alcohol becomes a factor, it's like driving drunk. We've lost our perspective.

[BubberMiley]

I thnk the reasoning behind putting them in bars is because that's already a place where kids aren't allowed, and they didn't want kids playing them. And since we're dealing exclusively with grown-ups, it's about time they learned that their actions while drunk still have consequences.

[geoffrey]

I thnk the reasoning behind putting them in bars is because that's already a place where kids aren't allowed, and they didn't want kids playing them. And since we're dealing exclusively with grown-ups, it's about time they learned that their actions while drunk still have consequences.

Doesn't change that is a method of taxation that effects mostly low income earners.

An addictive method of taxation.

Would society be worse off without VLT's? Would society be worse off if drunks weren't allowed to gamble under the influence? Nope.

[Riverwind]

I thnk the reasoning behind putting them in bars is because that's already a place where kids aren't allowed, and they didn't want kids playing them. And since we're dealing exclusively with grown-ups, it's about time they learned that their actions while drunk still have consequences.

The rational for putting them in bars is bars are good places to find lots of suckers. Most kids I know would be more interested in nintendo gameboy than a VLT.

[BubberMiley]

Doesn't change that is a method of taxation that effects mostly low income earners.

Are you implying that low-income people can't decide for themselves how to spend their money? Again, people who can't control themselves are going to run into problems no matter what. At least the money they burn away goes into general revenues and reduces the taxation burden for all of us. I'd rather see it go the provincial governments than PartyPoker.net.

[geoffrey]

Doesn't change that is a method of taxation that effects mostly low income earners.

Are you implying that low-income people can't decide for themselves how to spend their money? Again, people who can't control themselves are going to run into problems no matter what. At least the money they burn away goes into general revenues and reduces the taxation burden for all of us. I'd rather see it go the provincial governments than PartyPoker.net.

I wouldn't. I don't want my society funded by providing means for people to destroy their lives and families.

I want no part in that.

[BubberMiley]

You can destroy your family if you use the roads the government provided for you irresponsibly. Should they not provide roads then? No, because most people are perfectly capable of using them responsibly and they shouldn't have to suffer because a few people don't know how to control themselves.

[thejollyroger]

Are you implying that low-income people can't decide for themselves how to spend their money? Again, people who can't control themselves are going to run into problems no matter what. At least the money they burn away goes into general revenues and reduces the taxation burden for all of us. I'd rather see it go the provincial governments than PartyPoker.net.

Perhaps this is true. Statistically speaking, the most vunerable are low income males under 30 years of age with minimal education. These are the people who are providing those tax dollars, not Doctors and lawyers who can afford it. VLTs are in walking distance of nearly every home of college student and single parent families. Don't have a car or CPU? go to the bar get drunk and lose your money!!! No problem.

Here are a couple of good article for the person that was just getting up yo speed on VLTs.

Nova Scotia specific. Very good info here.

http://www.gov.ns.ca/ohp/gambling/vlts/index.html

Canadian Safety council

http://www.safety-council.org/info/community/gambling.html