Guardian Angels anyone?

[Riverwind]

Most smokers can perform normally, hold a job, raise a family etc., unlike a heroin or other drug dependent addict who probably started just because they like to feel high for many reasons or is just plain irresponsible.

The majority of heroin users do all of those things too. The people you see on the street are the ones that have hit bottom. However, I do agree that nicotine does not drive people to the extremes that heroin does. OTOH, the legal drug alcohol does.

There is no way you can justify an addiction when it comes down to abusing an illegal and banned substance and no way can this justify criminal activity.

So what? The fact that some drugs are illegal yet other are legal is irrelevant to the question of how to best deal with crimes committed by addicts.

[Leafless]

Sparhawk

You wrote- " So what. The fact that some drugs are illegal yet others are legal are irrelevant to the question of how to best deal with crimes committed by addicts."

Thats just like saying society is responsible to the perpetrator of a crime for any illegal act committed by that person.

So, why have jails.

Let's just have one big re-hab centre for everyone!

Free t.v., free lectures, free councilling, free room and board, free drugs, free booze etc. etc....In that case maybe we should all be criminals.

Are you Liberal?

[Riverwind]

So, why have jails.

The are three objectives to the criminal justice system:

1) Retribution

2) Deterrent

3) Rehabilitation

All three must be balanced. It does society no good if jails are simply places to send criminals do they can learn to become better criminals. Nor does it make sense to set up a system where ever increasing numbers of people need to be warehoused at taxpayer expense.

If somebody kills someone while high on drugs they should go to jail. Drugs are no excuse. If somebody breaks into a car then it worthwhile thinking about alternatives that will ensure the person does not break into another car as soon as they get out of jail.

[Drea]

So, why have jails.

The are three objectives to the criminal justice system:

1) Retribution

2) Deterrent

3) Rehabilitation

All three must be balanced. It does society no good if jails are simply places to send criminals do they can learn to become better criminals. Nor does it make sense to set up a system where ever increasing numbers of people need to be warehoused at taxpayer expense.

If somebody kills someone while high on drugs they should go to jail. Drugs are no excuse. If somebody breaks into a car then it worthwhile thinking about alternatives that will ensure the person does not break into another car as soon as they get out of jail.

I agree. Here in BC a drunk native woman broke into a senior gentleman's home and stabbed him to death. Her defense lawyer is fighting the case on the basis of "she was drunk and didn't know what she was doing"

BULLSHIT!

She should be jailed for life.

[lost&outofcontrol]

I think the problem lies with our 50-50 jail spaces (one goes in, one has to come out), as Canada hasn't built any new maximum security prisons, and only one new medium security prison in something like 25 years.

Except that's not true at all...

Atlantic Institution maximum security institution, opened in 1987

NOVA Institute for women multi-level security, opened in 1995

Joliette Institution multi-level security - max unit opened in 2003

Port-Cartier Institution, opened in 1988

Really isn't hard finding them too. link If people would just research things a bit before spewing preconceived ideas that are based on fairies and pink elephant stories there might be a bit more logic to discussions on these boards. There are more max level institutions especially on the women's side that have been opened in the past 25 years.

[theloniusfleabag]

Excepted that it's not true at all...

Atlantic Institution maximum security institution, opened in 1987

NOVA Institute for women multi-level security, opened in 1995

Joliette Institution multi-level security - max unit opened in 2003

Port-Cartier Institution, opened in 1988

My bad, I actually did look at the corrections canada website, but obviously did not do the proper search. Only Fenbrook came up as 'new'.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Excepted that it's not true at all...

Atlantic Institution maximum security institution, opened in 1987

NOVA Institute for women multi-level security, opened in 1995

Joliette Institution multi-level security - max unit opened in 2003

Port-Cartier Institution, opened in 1988

My bad, I actually did look at the corrections canada website, but obviously did not do the proper search. Only Fenbrook came up as 'new'.

No problem, just me being my usual snippy self. But you are probably right at the provincial level. Convicted deviants are actually asking during their hearing for more than 2 years in the hope of getting into a federal institution. There's barely any programs available at the provincial level. And I'll look a bit more into it but I don't think there has been any new max security institutions opened at the provincial level in a very long time.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear geoffrey (and all),

Writing the Guardian Angels seemed like a good idea, but as of yet I have heard nothing back.

As things have turned, out, I did hear back from the Guardian Angels, and am scheduled to meet with them tomorrow. They are doing a few 'spot checks' in Calgary and Edmonton this weekend, and may be considering 'chapters' here.

[geoffrey]

Dear geoffrey (and all),

Writing the Guardian Angels seemed like a good idea, but as of yet I have heard nothing back.

As things have turned, out, I did hear back from the Guardian Angels, and am scheduled to meet with them tomorrow. They are doing a few 'spot checks' in Calgary and Edmonton this weekend, and may be considering 'chapters' here.

Let me know the result, I'd be interesting in hearing more.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear geoffrey,

My wife and I met with Chris Sliwa, Founder and President of the Guardian Angels, along with two other gentlemen from the Denver chapter, and one from the now defunct Toronto chapter today. We took them, Rick Bell from the Sun, and a nice female reporter from the Herald (forget her name, I think it was Julie) on a walk-through of the neighbourhood around the drop-in centre. Wow. Even Mr. Sliwa was astounded by the amount of crack use, crime, etc. happening right around city hall. They confiscated a knife from one seriously spaced out crackhead woman, a crack pipe from another, and broke up a fight right outside the Cecil. Then we took them to Olympic Plaza, as Mayor Bronconnier had just announced in the Sun today his intention to spend some 25+ million of 'tax-kickbacks' to hire more police and emergency services for the downtown core. The mayor had commented in the Sun, "If I am getting asked to buy crack downtown, across from city hall, then it is time something has to be done", or some such. No guff.

As luck would have it, we walked around City Hall today, from the crack and heroin addicts on the back side, to the front side (Olympic Plaza) where, lo and behold, the "420" demonstration was being held, in an effort to legalize marijuan. Grant Krieger was there, as a guest speaker, and they were in the process of doing a prize give-away, where the lucky winners got pot pipes, 'Cannabis Culture' magazines, or 'bud-buster' grinding tools. There were about 8-10 uniformed police officers there, just keeping an eye on the crowd (as per regulation when the city issues 'demonstration' permits) and we all had a bit of a chuckle. Mr. Silwa commented, "If I were a tourist coming into the city, and seeing what I have just seen in the last 2 hours, you'd think Calgary was a real 'drug city".

My wife and I were in awe today, and it was incredible that, for a change, it was in the capacity for someone to be a force for good, and positive change, rather than our usual disgust at seeing the capacity for waste and the bad things some of our fellow beings are capable of.

[KrustyKidd]

I think guardian angels in big cities like Toronto and other Canadian cities would be advantageous to combat crime.

Not me. I think we need more tobacco police to bust up nicotine addicts grabbing a puff within ten meters of any public (yet privately owned) business. Far greater threat.

My wife and I met with Chris Sliwa, Founder and President of the Guardian Angels, along with two other gentlemen from the Denver chapter, and one from the now defunct Toronto chapter today. We took them, Rick Bell from the Sun, and a nice female reporter from the Herald (forget her name, I think it was Julie) on a walk-through of the neighbourhood around the drop-in centre. Wow. Even Mr. Sliwa was astounded by the amount of crack use, crime, etc. happening right around city hall. They confiscated a knife from one seriously spaced out crackhead woman, a crack pipe from another, and broke up a fight right outside the Cecil. Then we took them to Olympic Plaza, as Mayor Bronconnier had just announced in the Sun today his intention to spend some 25+ million of 'tax-kickbacks' to hire more police and emergency services for the downtown core. The mayor had commented in the Sun, "If I am getting asked to buy crack downtown, across from city hall, then it is time something has to be done", or some such. No guff.

I am humbled dear Lonius. Tell me, were you in awe of this guy? And when he did this taking away stuff, he must have done it with a gift of speech rare to see.

[theloniusfleabag]

A couple of corrections I must make,

Mr. Sliwa's name is Curtis, not Chris

-The amount the city may spend is 15+ million, not 25,

-the name of the Herald reporter was Sherri Zickefoose (a really nice person, she was as astounded as we were at how prevalent the crack usage was)

KrustyKidd,

Tell me, were you in awe of this guy? And when he did this taking away stuff, he must have done it with a gift of speech rare to see.

Yes, we were in awe at the abilities of Mr. Sliwa. Loaded with charisma, and absolutely confident and fearless. The kind of guy you would love to have as a neighbour. Yet he was very affable and down to earth.

Evidently, according to the Calgary Sun, Curtis Sliwa had been shot in New York by John Gotti Jr. a number of years ago. That probably really hurt.

[Sensisage]

I highly disagree. The American agenda of using fear and propaganda to bend the will of the people to suit their needs is being demonstrated right here. The Gaurdian angels ARE a vigilante group, who do they report to? Three months of training, yeah i feel safer already. Seeing their leader oppose our safe needle disposal program was the clincher. they need to realize YOU CAN NEVER STOP ADDICTION or the drug and prostitution trades, is it better for the people afflicted by this problem on the bottom rung dispose of their needles on the ground, so everyone has a chance of stepping on one? the angels say that it makes drug use almost leagal and encourages it, please, the boxes simply create a safer community for parents and their children. As for them being role models, they are a gang, and i'm sure they use some unsavory tactics to achieve their goals, but who would find out because who do they report to...themselves. We need to find a solution to these problems, yes they will more than likely liberal ideas but the times they are a changing. Sending a gang after another gang is not the answer, brute force is not the answer, intimidation and fear won't solve anything and the "Crime Problem" isn't even bad downtown, they have inflated the issue and exaggerated the facts it's absurd. Let the police do their job, we already have a huge police force with yet another hiring drive, and we're the only city in Canada to have 2 police helicopters, why do we need a helicopter in the air 24/7? A new social policy must be tabled to ease the tensions and try to build a new future for those addicted to hard narcotics, violence and being "tough" aren't the answer, it will escalate before it alleviates.

[geoffrey]

There is no tensions in Calgary, nothing of the sort. This isn't gang vs. gang warfare we are talking about (unless we are talking about the immigrant gangsters, but thats another story altogether). This is just your typical druggie trash laying on our streets, shooting up and being a threat to our safety. I personally don't like people on drugs waving box cutters around in the streets, do you? So if someone wants to step up, take the weapons and drugs away from them (which they can't legally have anyways), then by all means.

They aren't vigilantes. They have never been sued, all their actions are completely within the law.

Maybe we'll see a little less trash on our streets, the East Village is already too disgusting to go to on a regular basis, and thats too bad, because they have some damned good food.

Where do the Angels say they are against needle disposal? I can't recall reading this in the paper or seeing it on TV with all the coverage this has been getting.

I can't believe you honestly don't think the crime problem is bad downtown. When people shooting up in the streets isn't viewed as crime maybe, but right now, the amount of blatant drug use is ridiculously out of control. Take a walk down by the East Village 9 or 10 at night, alone, then tell me there isn't a drug or crime problem in this city.

The sad reality is that most people are willing to just say 'oh we are a big city, we should have crime' when it doesn't have to be that way. We can clean our downtown up, get rid of the degenerates and be a leader in having drug free, crime free downtown areas. Just a little effort. We are bringing in more police too, 18 new officers for downtown in the new city spending.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear geoffrey,

Excellent post, and I whole-heartedly agree.

Vigilantism? Technically, if you stop a fleeing purse-snatcher, you are a 'vigilante'. Society needs more involvement from it's citizens, not less.

I'll post the letter I wrote to the Mayor a while ago (it is on my computer at work), explaining our problems in the area. Until now, I really had no hope that these issues would ever be addressed.

[theloniusfleabag]

Here is most of the letter written to our mayor..

The most urgent concern, however, that is jeopardizing our business is the crack-cocaine traffic in our neighborhood. There has been a notable increase of crack use in the last two years, as well as a surge in violence and a corresponding increase in fear of the law-abiding business-people, customers, and residents in the area. My customers have begun to comment that they no longer feel safe in my neighborhood, and some have even asked to wait inside my establishment for spouses, relatives and friends of my customers, as they ‘do not feel it is safe’ outside.

I have grave concerns about the future of my business, and of myself and my wife’s own personal safety, as well as those of my customers.

I have taken my concerns to the Police, my Alderman, and finally the Office of the Mayor in the hopes that something can be done to assure our safety as citizens and businesspeople of Calgary. As of yet, however, these efforts have been fruitless. I can state with certainty that, to the best of my knowledge, the situation will dictate that I will have no other recourse but to take ‘pre-emptive self-defense’ measures.

I was asked by The Office of the Mayor to submit a detailed message outlining my grievances and efforts to rectify them, and they are as follows:

· To the best of my recollection, at least 50 calls have been made in the last 2 years to the Calgary Police to report crack dealers, fights/assaults and illegal activity. The Police informed us that they cannot search anyone without probable cause, and at some point last year ceased responding to reports of crack deals.

· Co-workers, and I, have been solicited to buy crack-cocaine.

· Co-workers, and I, have been solicited by prostitutes and pimps.

· Our business frontage has been littered with human feces, urine, syringes, garbage, blood, broken glass, beer cans and liquor bottles regularly.

· On two occasions the previous owner caught individuals on our premises urinating on her vehicle.

· Co-workers, and I, have had to ask crack addicts/users to ‘go elsewhere’ to count/smoke their purchases

· I have asked crack dealers to ‘take their business elsewhere’ and was responded to by one dealer “you should try some” and another dealer said “Mind your own (expletive) business” and drew back his fist to strike me. (He did not throw the punch, but I did report the incident to the police immediately).

· Co-workers, and I, have on a daily basis witnessed the purchase/use of crack-cocaine and heroin, as well as sexual acts and acts of violence.

· Co-workers, and I, have compiled lists of license plate numbers, vehicle descriptions, and dealer descriptions. We have, on numerous occasions, offered these lists to the Police/Vice squad. They stopped returning our calls sometime last year.

· Began to hear customer comments that some ‘do not feel safe’ patronizing our business, even accompanied by their dogs.

· A relative of a customer asked to wait (for said customer) inside our premises, as he felt ‘it was not safe’ outside the building.

· An employee at the Harry Hays Building, who is also an acquaintance of mine, did not feel it was safe to cross the street (due to the drug activity and violent altercations) at the corner of 3rd St SE and Riverfront Ave to return to her car, and walked to the next corner to cross.

· The City of Calgary Police Dispatcher, and various officers, has told us that our eyewitness reporting of drug traffic does not constitute ‘probable cause’ as grounds for searching crack-dealers.

· Have contacted the Office of the Alderman in our neighborhood. Have been told that no community liaison exists for our neighborhood. Have submitted some of above points and as of yet have not heard a reply. Suggestion received was to contact the Office of the Mayor.

· A previous employee recovered his own stolen property within 100m of our business, while the property (a bicycle) was stolen the previous night from Eau-Claire Market. One of the group found ‘in possession’ the bicycle followed the employee back to our business, ostensibly to steal the bike again.

· Have cleaned up various discarded weapons from both frontage of our business, and from neighboring public property.

Given the fact that numerous offers of information and assistance to the Police has been met with silence, and the fact that the police ‘have their hands tied’ by Search and Seizure laws, coupled with the fact that the crack traffic and violence has steadily increased, has left us in the neighborhood feeling that contacting the mayor is, to the best of our knowledge, the last possible resort of peaceful and legal means to ensure our personal safety and that of our businesses.

I eagerly await your reply.

Sincerely,

[theloniusfleabag]

I thought I would dredge up this old thread since my wife and I have recently completed training (though it will be ongoing) and joined the Guardian Angels. The first official patrol was last night in Calgary. The response was overwhelmingly positive, even amongst the 'street-people'. Many of them don't even feel safe. Soooo interesting, and a real eye-opener. If anyone has any questions about the group, please feel free to ask.

[guyser]

Congrats on becoming an Angel.

Glad it is there and not here. I have absolutely no use for them , and if it were me, they would not be welcome.

But, you enjoy it and I wish you luck.Keep safe

[leonardcohen]

Well, lets bring 'em on. And fix the rest of our justice system while we are at it.

What do the police think about these guys?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2006/07/07/guardianangels.html

Apparently ,the police here in Ottawa are cool to the idea, can't say i blame them ,

all we need is something going wrong,and the city could be on

the hook for a lawsuit or 2.

[geoffrey]

Well done fleabag. I think you've mentioned that you have a business near the East end of downtown. Good to see business owners doing what the city has refused to do. I'm rarely downtown now that we've relocated out of the core, but I was down the other night and do we ever need the Angels.

Good on ya.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear geoffrey,

Thanks for the encouragement.

guyser and leonardcohen,

I understand that not everyone is in support of the group, but support for us has been about 95% positive, from what we have seen. Even amongst the 'homeless' around the drop-in centre. Several have told us that they are glad to see us, and that even they don't feel safe, especially at night. However, some few people have given us the finger, and one gentleman commented, "Go back to America, you Nazi swine".

The other night we broke up a fight along the bike path downtown, and asked the two guys to go their seperate ways with no one getting hurt. A little while later we helped carry an extremely intoxicated man into the Drop-in Centre for his own safety (two guys were already making their way there with him, and we asked if we could help). The staff at the centre were very friendly and helpful, and seemed genuinely pleased to see us.

I think that so far, the most common misconception is that we are out to 'bash heads', and that we are 'wanna-be cops' trying to make arrests. Not so, at least for our group. One of our group was formerly in Toronto for years, and he told us (and the CPS, with whom we have recently had a very positive meeting) that in all the years they were in TO, they never made one arrest.

We don't want to be cops, we all have full-time jobs and none of us really envy the police, they have one of the toughest and thankless jobs around. We have had some training in self-defence, and also in the law, and realize that physical force is only to be used in extremely rare circumstances. Even then only the 'barest minimum required' can be used.

Basically, we just want to be good citizens who want to improve our community, and are not afraid to stand up to wrong-doing. Our motto is 'Dare to Care'.

What we do (and hope to do)

-be a visual deterrent to crime

-be extra 'eyes and ears' for the police

-offer help when it is needed

-be positive role-models, especially for youth

Our first couple of patrols has seen us spending more time picking up needles and crack-pipes (to get them off the sidewalks so kids don't get curious) than anything else, so if that is all we ever did, I would say it has been a positve thing.

[blueblood]

Dear geoffrey,

Thanks for the encouragement.

guyser and leonardcohen,

I understand that not everyone is in support of the group, but support for us has been about 95% positive, from what we have seen. Even amongst the 'homeless' around the drop-in centre. Several have told us that they are glad to see us, and that even they don't feel safe, especially at night. However, some few people have given us the finger, and one gentleman commented, "Go back to America, you Nazi swine".

The other night we broke up a fight along the bike path downtown, and asked the two guys to go their seperate ways with no one getting hurt. A little while later we helped carry an extremely intoxicated man into the Drop-in Centre for his own safety (two guys were already making their way there with him, and we asked if we could help). The staff at the centre were very friendly and helpful, and seemed genuinely pleased to see us.

I think that so far, the most common misconception is that we are out to 'bash heads', and that we are 'wanna-be cops' trying to make arrests. Not so, at least for our group. One of our group was formerly in Toronto for years, and he told us (and the CPS, with whom we have recently had a very positive meeting) that in all the years they were in TO, they never made one arrest.

We don't want to be cops, we all have full-time jobs and none of us really envy the police, they have one of the toughest and thankless jobs around. We have had some training in self-defence, and also in the law, and realize that physical force is only to be used in extremely rare circumstances. Even then only the 'barest minimum required' can be used.

Basically, we just want to be good citizens who want to improve our community, and are not afraid to stand up to wrong-doing. Our motto is 'Dare to Care'.

What we do (and hope to do)

-be a visual deterrent to crime

-be extra 'eyes and ears' for the police

-offer help when it is needed

-be positive role-models, especially for youth

Our first couple of patrols has seen us spending more time picking up needles and crack-pipes (to get them off the sidewalks so kids don't get curious) than anything else, so if that is all we ever did, I would say it has been a positve thing.

If only more people in the cities did the little things like you guys are doing our country would be a better place, nicely done.

[Leafless]

As things have turned, out, I did hear back from the Guardian Angels, and am scheduled to meet with them tomorrow. They are doing a few 'spot checks' in Calgary and Edmonton this weekend, and may be considering 'chapters' here.

Good luck with your new job.

I would only like to point out that I have some reservations concerning the basic purpose of the 'Angels'.

There are weak links with the Angels objectives being basically, being seen as 'rule by gang type enforcement' and the possibility of becoming over emotionally dominant and controlling carrying out the role of 'do-gooder social enforcers'.

The basic point is the Angels are only masking or helping hide societies rot and decay and doing nothing to source out and rectify the root cause of social decay, which is the responsibility of our political leaders who are not doing their job.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Leafless,

I would only like to point out that I have some reservations concerning the basic purpose of the 'Angels'.

There are weak links with the Angels objectives being basically, being seen as 'rule by gang type enforcement'

I understand that this is a popular misconception, but we do not desire to 'rule' anything, except our own selves (within the rule of law, of course). We also wish to encourage and empower others to do the same.

and the possibility of becoming over emotionally dominant and controlling carrying out the role of 'do-gooder social enforcers'.

We intend to be 'do-gooders', no doubt...but we wish to lead by example. We cannot force any standards upon anyone, nor do we intend to. What we can do, though, is the same as any other citizen...respect the law, report those we witness breaking the law, and if safe (and lawful) to do so, invoke the right of citizen's arrest (especially if someone's life is in jeopardy).

For example, what would you do if you saw 2 muggers beating an old lady while trying to wrench her purse free? Call the cops? So would we. However, we have also been trained how to safely detain (safe for us and for them) those 2 muggers until the police arrive. Likely, though the mugging might not even happen, or happen less often, if criminals start to think twice, or look over their shoulder, for a group of citizens that are willing to intervene on behalf of a victim.

The basic point is the Angels are only masking or helping hide societies rot and decay

Not so. We will point it out and be willing to try to change it.

to source out and rectify the root cause of social decay, which is the responsibility of our political leaders who are not doing their job.

It is not just the responsibility of political leaders, but all of ours.

[Leafless]

We intend to be 'do-gooders', no doubt...but we wish to lead by example. We cannot force any standards upon anyone, nor do we intend to. What we can do, though, is the same as any other citizen...respect the law, report those we witness breaking the law, and if safe (and lawful) to do so, invoke the right of citizen's arrest (especially if someone's life is in jeopardy).

This is easier said than done.

To enforce criminal law via 'citizens arrest' the immunities and limitations must be clearly defined, which they are NOT. This is also greatly complicated by Charter rights.

For example, what would you do if you saw 2 muggers beating an old lady while trying to wrench her purse free? Call the cops? So would we. However, we have also been trained how to safely detain (safe for us and for them) those 2 muggers until the police arrive.

Your life could be at risk by trying to detain two muggers who could be or probably high on drugs. There is no safe way to detain suspected muggers. It is quite common for even police officers to have great difficulty apprehending suspects on drugs. The suspected is often so hyped up that when they are subdued they often die of a self induced heart attack and very often leaving the police department open to charges.

Likely, though the mugging might not even happen, or happen less often, if criminals start to think twice, or look over their shoulder, for a group of citizens that are willing to intervene on behalf of a victim.

What happens if criminals simply start to eliminate, one way or the other, people who 'get in the way' of criminals.

The basic point is the Angels are only masking or helping hide societies rot and decay

Not so. We will point it out and be willing to try to change it.

Authorities and politicians already know what causes societies rot and decay.

But guess what? In reality they only turn around and actually encourage and feed the current problem, which is basically fueled by corporate greed.