Cities and Towns can criminalize homelessness

[herbie]

3 hours ago, impartialobserver said:

The poster that you are conversing with honestly thinks that involuntary incarceration would not only be sufficient but also necessary.

Does not seem to realize that unless otherwise posted by the city anyone can park anywhere on the public streets. Which means they can park their van or motorhome and sleep overnight unless there is a city bylaw that says otherwise.
All the cities I know have a limit for how long you can remain and if you call them they can have the vehicle move on or be towed away if it's been there too long. You could also simply stick a note on their window pointing out the local WalMart parking lot.

Getting your panties in a knot trying to criminalize someone for being homeless is simply being a miserable ass. What if it's not a homeless person at all but some neighbour's family visiting? I've met people people all raged for parking my car on the street 'in front of their house' when staying at my sister's place because her driveway was full. That's what triggered my response.
I did pay minimal respect to the guy and try not to park in front of his house for the time I was visiting. Just thinking that now with all her millenial kids moved back in and no room, if I visited with a camper van ppl of that attitude would 'assume' and it would be a serious problem.

[User]

32 minutes ago, herbie said:

Does not seem to realize...

You presented this as a person living in their van for months... parking in front of my house. 

Instead of responding honestly to me, you sit here making crap up about how I don't understand that people can park on the streets. 

We are not talking about someone parking temporarily on a public road. Stop being such a dishonest person. 

You NEVER presented this as someone merely parking on the street in front of my house because a neighbors driveway was full where they were visiting. 

[herbie]

10 minutes ago, User said:

You presented this as a person living in their van for months... parking in front of my house.

No you did.

By not including for months in your OP.

[User]

1 minute ago, herbie said:

No you did.

By not including for months in your OP.

Your constant lies are becoming insufferable. 

This was your post:

"Had a buddy that lived in the garage of an abandoned house for years going to college. Used the gas staion on the corner to wash up. Even tapped his hydro and cable tv off the neighbour... on a like 12" B&W Tv.

He dropped out in his 3rd year and I never knew what became of him.

There's a lot of working people living in cars and vans and trailers in a rest area these days, a couple are interviewed every week on TV. Even a nurse that was renovicted and living in her van for months who was working full time.

Should they lock her up too for parking in front of your house?"

 

[herbie]

Yeah the AI chose the YOU LIED response again.

You just reposted something that has nothing to do with the claim you made and claimed IT was a lie?
Like could you even answer the question in there about the nurse? Did you ever express the slightest sympathy or suggest solutions for any homeless people? Did you even recognize there are already laws and restrictions in place, let alone suggest better enforcement of them?
Nah, you just kept on with criminalize, make punishment worse as the solution like a typical right-wing zealot.

Well some of us didn't grow into cranky old men only concerned with their own convenience. That learned just shouting liar and I know you are and whatabout is not discussion.

Give it a rest and goodbye on the matter

[User]

33 minutes ago, herbie said:

Yeah the AI chose the YOU LIED response again.

You just reposted something that has nothing to do with the claim you made and claimed IT was a lie?
Like could you even answer the question in there about the nurse? Did you ever express the slightest sympathy or suggest solutions for any homeless people? Did you even recognize there are already laws and restrictions in place, let alone suggest better enforcement of them?
Nah, you just kept on with criminalize, make punishment worse as the solution like a typical right-wing zealot.

Well some of us didn't grow into cranky old men only concerned with their own convenience. That learned just shouting liar and I know you are and whatabout is not discussion.

Give it a rest and goodbye on the matter

I have no idea what kind of obfuscation games you are playing here, but this is some of the worst I have seen. 

Yes, you are a liar. You have repeatedly lied here about what you have said, what we are discussing, and the characterizations of what my responses have been. 

I did answer the question. No, I am not OK with someone living out of their van in front of my home. Yes, I would call the police on them. 

No one should be expected to be OK with people turning their neighborhoods into some kind of public homeless encampments or RV parks. We have zoning regulations and laws regarding public nuisances like this to protect peoples property that they worked hard for and have invested their time and money into. 

If you want to talk about sympathy, you are free to open your doors or go buy some property somewhere where you can let people camp on and live on for free to your hearts desire. Demanding others turn their front yards into some squalor of homelessness is absurd. 

 

[impartialobserver]

20 hours ago, herbie said:

Does not seem to realize that unless otherwise posted by the city anyone can park anywhere on the public streets. Which means they can park their van or motorhome and sleep overnight unless there is a city bylaw that says otherwise.
All the cities I know have a limit for how long you can remain and if you call them they can have the vehicle move on or be towed away if it's been there too long. You could also simply stick a note on their window pointing out the local WalMart parking lot.

Getting your panties in a knot trying to criminalize someone for being homeless is simply being a miserable ass. What if it's not a homeless person at all but some neighbour's family visiting? I've met people people all raged for parking my car on the street 'in front of their house' when staying at my sister's place because her driveway was full. That's what triggered my response.
I did pay minimal respect to the guy and try not to park in front of his house for the time I was visiting. Just thinking that now with all her millenial kids moved back in and no room, if I visited with a camper van ppl of that attitude would 'assume' and it would be a serious problem.

Like all things.. it is a matter of degree. 15 homeless spread out over a mid size city is nothing. Now when you see hundreds clustered in a small area such as a downtown is going to make an impression. 

[herbie]

Yes no doubt. Like pulling into a rest stop near Vancouver and having to search for a spot to park and pee as there were so many homeless vans and broken down trailers?

Look at the trash around and it makes you immediately think to yourself no wonder they're homeless, I wouldn't rent to them either

But that doesn't DO anything about it.

[User]

On 7/20/2024 at 11:08 PM, Matthew said:

How? The direct relationship between those two things is obviously strong and many experts who study this topic have concluded that one has a high impact upon the other.

I literally explained how already. Larger more liberal cities, those with nicer weather, that have policies that allow for people to literally camp on the sidewalk, plug extension cords into outlets on the sidewalk, and police that ignore them... *gasp* big shocker, have more homeless people migrate to them. 

Correlation is not causation with higher costs of living being the largest impact on homelessness in any given area. 

I don't discount it has some impact, obviously, but that isn't the point of discussion. 

The folks you see camping on the streets in San Francisco or laying in their own urine on the sidewalk are not there because the rent just happened to get a bit too high. 

On 7/20/2024 at 11:08 PM, Matthew said:

Common conservative talking point, but not backed by facts. Most homeless people are homeless in the city or local area in which they used to be a rentor.

It is a common sense talking point. You can look to San Francisco as a prime example of this. Even what you say is a playing a bit fast and lose with the facts... sure, that "most" can also include those who rented for less than a year in any capacity or who partook in any of the free housing programs and are often based on surveys that rely on self reported data... where someone can claim to have lived in San Francisco and be a resident when that means... what? I stayed with a friend for a month, I guess I am a resident now. 
 

On 7/20/2024 at 11:08 PM, Matthew said:

Yes. How do you imagine it happening? More than half of the country lives paycheck to paycheck. That can mean one disaster away from homelessness for many.  For example, a costly medical emerency, a rent increasing by $500/mo, a loss of a job means they can't pay rent and eventually get eevicted.

Some might be able to live in a hotel for a while, or in their car, or in a friend or relatives home. But if one's options like this dwindle, they can eventually end up on the street or in a homeless shelter.

You are conflating temporary homelessness with chronic homelessness. Sure, people can hit hard times, but those people have safety nets available to them, the ability to move to get a new job, to find cheaper places to live. Those are not the folks setting up their cardboard boxes under the bridge for the next 5 years we are talking about here or trying to live on a public park for years or as long as they are allowed to. 

On 7/20/2024 at 11:08 PM, Matthew said:

Depends what kind of support network one has and other factors like whether they have kids etc. It's can be extremely difficult to get out of dire poverty without some help. Also one study from a few years ago showed that between 40-50% of homeless people do have jobs. Just not enough income to actually participate in the housing market. It's an inaccurate generalization to caricature most homeless people as druggies and unmedicated schizophrenics.

Having a job doesn't mean they can't afford rent when they can have a job and still be addicted to drugs or alcohol making poor decisions with their money. 

There is a reason why San Francisco keeps having a Homeless problem even with the thousands of home units they make available to help people. 

Most cities and states and the federal government has programs to help people... but when you are making bad choices or are suffering from mental issues or addiction, all the cheap free housing in the world isn't keeping you off the street. 

[Matthew]

19 hours ago, User said:

The folks you see camping on the streets in San Francisco or laying in their own urine on the sidewalk are not there because the rent just happened to get a bit too high. 

That's your opinion. The SF government does an elaborate survey of their 7000-some homeless people every other year.

Why they believe they unable to get a home (2022 data):

- 39% Can't afford rent

- 24% Not enough income

- 17% Can't afford to move elsewhere

- 15% No housing available

 

Why they say they are homeless in the first place:

- 21% Lost a job

- 14% Eviction

- 12% Alcohol/drugs

- 9% Argument with family

- 7% Mental health issue

- 7% Parole/probation restrictions

20 hours ago, User said:

 

20 hours ago, User said:

sure, that "most" can also include those who rented for less than a year in any capacity

1. San Fransisco's homeless overwhelmingly resided in California before becoming homeless. 71% specifically from SF.

2. It doesn't matter for your puposes if they rented for a year before becoming homeless. You're claiming that drug addict homeless people from across the US choose to flock to CA. Also there is an intense bureaucratic process for obtaining free housing is SF that prioritizes families. One cannot easily float in and get that.

20 hours ago, User said:

You are conflating temporary homelessness with chronic homelessness.

Nope

20 hours ago, User said:

when you are making bad choices or are suffering from mental issues or addiction, all the cheap free housing in the world isn't keeping you off the street. 

There is not free housing available to everyone. And the main problem is housing costs. Addiction and mental health is a big issue for about 50% of them in SF but there are plenty of people who simply can't make enough money to afford outragously high rent.