Cities and Towns can criminalize homelessness

[User]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

Should they lock her up too for parking in front of your house?

If she refuses lawful orders to leave, yes. If she continues to violate the law, yes. 

My home is not a homeless encampment nor is it a parking lot zoned for vehicle camping. 

[Matthew]

On 7/10/2024 at 11:46 AM, impartialobserver said:

I see why Grants Pass would do this. First, they are trying to attract business to their small-ish town.

I agree. Also I don't think parks are really the issue. I don't have a problem with a community telling homeless people they can't live in a park. The actual policy problem here is targeting homeless people in parks via criminalization without offering any legal alternative way to be homeless outside of the restricted public spaces.

Funny you mention SLC, i did a job downtown there every summer for many years. Its a lovely city, though homelessness was very noticable. But then a few years ago I suddenly noticed no homeless people anywhere. I also observed within view of my air b&b condo, what turned out to be a newly built homeless shelter-- if it can be called that. A brick complex surrounded by high fencing, topped with barbed wire, and teams of armed guards circling it constantly. I'm not sure what the situation was for those within, but I didn't see people coming and going from the entrance very often.

Edited July 11, 2024 by Matthew

[impartialobserver]

19 hours ago, Matthew said:

I agree. Also I don't think parks are really the issue. I don't have a problem with a community telling homeless people they can't live in a park. The actual policy problem here is targeting homeless people in parks via criminalization without offering any legal alternative way to be homeless outside of the restricted public spaces.

Funny you mention SLC, i did a job downtown there every summer for many years. Its a lovely city, though homelessness was very noticable. But then a few years ago I suddenly noticed no homeless people anywhere. I also observed within view of my air b&b condo, what turned out to be a newly built homeless shelter-- if it can be called that. A brick complex surrounded by high fencing, topped with barbed wire, and teams of armed guards circling it constantly. I'm not sure what the situation was for those within, but I didn't see people coming and going from the entrance very often.

Parks is where you will see this though. We have it in Reno. The middle class family takes the kid to the park and finds it full of homeless people. So then next time.. they go to another part of town and therefore zero chance that you take your kid to get ice cream or whatever. 

This is a problem with no easy solution. To simply round them all up and put them in jail does not work and there are case studies to show this. To incarcerate someone costs money and time. Ask a member of law enforcement whether they would rather cite someone for vagrancy, take them to jail, and then do it all over again in 3 to 4 days OR work in a much bigger case such as murder, rape, drug trafficking.. the latter wins out. Society also values the latter over the former. 

[User]

9 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

To simply round them all up and put them in jail does not work and there are case studies to show this. To incarcerate someone costs money and time.

It does in fact work. However, it needs to be more than just jail, it has to be involuntary rehab facilities. 

What is complex about this is the bleeding heart liberals don't feel good about that and instead want to ignore the problem or treat the symptoms and make it worse. 

That is how we end up with the crazy people on the subway in New York threatening people and attacking them... because it is "complex" so just let them go. 

[impartialobserver]

recent reports show that the homeless that are arrested in my neck of the woods.. end up back on the street within 7 days. Hmm.. so arresting them has really solved that problem. 

[Matthew]

On 7/12/2024 at 10:17 AM, User said:

it has to be involuntary rehab facilities.

That might help the minority of homeless people who are there due to addiction issues, but will do nothing for the majority who became homeless due to a rent increase or a job loss. Others are dealing with severe mental health problems. Some people just prefer a simple lifestyle that rejects the expectations of work and housing and have no mental health or drug issues. Point being that any one-size-fits-all solution is bound to fail.

[Matthew]

4 hours ago, impartialobserver said:

recent reports show that the homeless that are arrested in my neck of the woods.. end up back on the street within 7 days. Hmm.. so arresting them has really solved that problem. 

That's up there in effectiveness with fining people who can't pay their bills, or charging people for their prison stay after they get out.

[User]

7 minutes ago, Matthew said:

That might help the minority of homeless people who are there due to addiction issues, but will do nothing for the majority who became homeless due to a rent increase or a job loss. Others are dealing with severe mental health problems. Some people just prefer a simple lifestyle that rejects the expectations of work and housing and have no mental health or drug issues. Point being that any one-size-fits-all solution is bound to fail.

The majority of homeless people are not homeless because of a recent job loss or rent increase... 

For those with mental health issues, bring back involuntary commitment if they are unable to care for themselves... and for those who chose that lifestyle... then they can go choose it somewhere else. 

[impartialobserver]

13 minutes ago, Matthew said:

That's up there in effectiveness with fining people who can't pay their bills, or charging people for their prison stay after they get out.

Its very effective at creating a lather, rinse, repeat cycle. Go to jail, get out, go to jail, get out.. each time, the outstanding debt grows. I will say it helps the cities balance sheet in the form of making the accounts receivable look artificially good. 

[Matthew]

12 minutes ago, User said:

The majority of homeless people are not homeless because of a recent job loss or rent increase

Sure it is. Lack of affordable housing is the leading cause of homelessness.

"A large body of academic research has consistently found that homelessness in an area is driven by housing costs, whether expressed in terms of rents, rent-to-income ratios, price-to-income ratios, or home prices. Further, changes in rents precipitate changes in rates of homelessness: homelessness increases when rents rise by amounts that low-income households cannot afford. Similarly, interventions to address housing costs by providing housing directly or through subsidies have been effective in reducing homelessness. That makes sense if housing costs are the main driver of homelessness, but not if other reasons are to blame. Studies show that other factors have a much smaller impact on homelessness."

Source

41 minutes ago, User said:

For those with mental health issues, bring back involuntary commitment if they are unable to care for themselves

I'm fine with that. Though that's incredibly expensive. Republicans since the 80s have taken every opportunity to cut public funding for mental institutions.

47 minutes ago, User said:

for those who chose that lifestyle... then they can go choose it somewhere else

I'm fine with rules against homeless people living in public spaces so long as there is some place they are legally allowed to go.

A system in which one is legally required to buy housing otherwise face criminal punishments seems quite unethical.

[User]

16 hours ago, Matthew said:

Sure it is. Lack of affordable housing is the leading cause of homelessness.

No, it is not. You cited someone else's view on studies, but those studies were a statistical comparison of housing prices going up in large cities compared to homeless rates. 

If there is a particular study you want to use, cite it, then I can see how they are coming to that conclusion because otherwise, it is a bit specious to try to conclude that San Francisco has more homelessness because their housing prices are going up... when Homeless people flock to larger left wing cities on the coast for other reasons.

There is also the difference between chronic homelessness and how people are counted as "homeless" when they are not out living on the streets like the homelessness we are talking about. 

You can do the same kind of comparison between Deinstitutionalization in America and the rise of homelessness. 

 

16 hours ago, Matthew said:

I'm fine with that. Though that's incredibly expensive. Republicans since the 80s have taken every opportunity to cut public funding for mental institutions.

Not interested in your extreme partisan generalizations. 

16 hours ago, Matthew said:

I'm fine with rules against homeless people living in public spaces so long as there is some place they are legally allowed to go.

A system in which one is legally required to buy housing otherwise face criminal punishments seems quite unethical.

If there is a legal place to go, you have defacto created a magnet for homeless people to abuse. And there are private shelters in the area... but they didn't count some of them because they were religious and have rules around no drinking... 

They do have legal places to go, they can legally stay with people like you who think it is unethical to combat homeless people abusing public areas. 

 

[impartialobserver]

19 hours ago, Matthew said:

Sure it is. Lack of affordable housing is the leading cause of homelessness.

Well.. instead of just arguing.. lets put some numbers to this. Random homeless person in Seattle. We can reasonably assume that they have little to no actual liquid income. So now they want to get an apartment. Lets say that they go with the studio... $1481 on average. 

So first they have to get a job. We all know that being on the street (now or in the recent past) is going to limit their options. So they will end up in janitorial, fast food, or low end retail. The average gross weekly wage in those industries is roughly $1600 in King county for 2023 q4 (source QCEW). So now we also know that they have first months rent, last months rent, and a deposit. The person has to have at least 1481 + 1481 + 500. Quick estimate is about 3300.... $3300 is a lot of money for most let alone someone on the street starting with 0 income or close to it. 

When I was on the street in SLC, I got around this by renting someone's basement for $100 per month. Yes, my hypothetical person in Seattle could find such alternative arrangements. The higher the housing cost for the primary owner/tenant.. the higher the cost for the subletter (myself in SLC). 

Edited July 18, 2024 by impartialobserver

[User]

11 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

Well.. instead of just arguing.. lets put some numbers to this. Random homeless person in Seattle. We can reasonably assume that they have little to no actual liquid income. So now they want to get an apartment. Lets say that they go with the studio... $1481 on average. 

So first they have to get a job. We all know that being on the street (now or in the recent past) is going to limit their options. So they will end up in janitorial, fast food, or low end retail. The average weekly wage in those industries is roughly $1600 in King county for 2023 q4 (source QCEW). So now we also know that they have first months rent, last months rent, and a deposit. The person has to have at least 1481 + 1481 + 500. Quick estimate is about 3300.... $3300 is a lot of money for most let alone someone on the street starting with 0 income or close to it. 

When I was on the street in SLC, I got around this by renting someone's basement for $100 per month. Yes, my hypothetical person in Seattle could find such alternative arrangements. The higher the housing cost for the primary owner/tenant.. the higher the cost for the subletter (myself in SLC). 

That is not really the question though. It is not if a current homeless person can afford housing... you can play those same numbers out just about anywhere in any town in America. If you start at zero, with nothing, no income... you can't afford anything. 

Is that why a homeless person in Seatle is homeless? Well, just can't afford a home, so going to live on the streets I guess. 

No, if they do not have some underlying condition, there are a million things you can do to move to get housing to get a job starting from nothing somewhere else. 

 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, User said:

Is that why a homeless person in Seatle is homeless?

Am going on a hunch here, but feel its 90% mental health at how they can't deal with life, and 10% them having no means to afford anything.

I have yet to meet a homeless person that didn't have serious mental health issues.

Most working people lose a job, and get on their horse to get another one or two. Its a setback. A speed bump in the road of life.

When you can't cope with what life throws at you, this becomes your life. That speed bump becomes a wall. No doors.

It becomes far easier to slip through cracks when you're no longer looking out for them. That much easier with a clouded mind on drugs or alcohol.

Once your confidence matches your environment, its hard to get up from that. You at that point have accepted you are human waste, and will look and smell the part. 

Once that far gone, without heavy handed support, you will likely die this way.

[impartialobserver]

housing costs may not be why someone ends up on the street but it is one of the reasons that they stay there. Mental health is another part that is both separate and interwoven with high costs. So not only do you have diminished job prospects, high costs, and now mental health issues that make daily existence challenging. 

When I was on the street.. there were 3 distinct camps. 1. Young, able bodied, but drug addicts that deliberately lived on the street so as to avoid detection by law enforcement. These were criminals who changed their names and appearances as well as lived "off the grid". 2. Mental health issues.. folks who had severe depression, anxiety, and/or schizophrenia. Most of them self medicated in the form of drugs and/or alcohol. 3. The able bodied types that were doing everything that they can to get off the street (myself being one of them). For the second and third groups.. lower cost of housing would definitely take some of them off the street. 

[herbie]

On 7/10/2024 at 5:49 PM, User said:

If she refuses lawful orders to leave, yes. If she continues to violate the law, yes. 

My home is not a homeless encampment nor is it a parking lot zoned forg vehicle camping. 

Oh so you're like my neighbour who thinks the street in front of her house is her property too. And calls the city if she sees a dog walk down the sidewalk cuz the asphalt is too hot.

Edited July 21, 2024 by herbie

[User]

32 minutes ago, herbie said:

Oh so you're like my neighbour who thinks the street in front of her house is her property too. And calls the city if she sees a dog walk down the sidewalk cuz the asphalt is too hot.

You presented a woman living out of her vehicle parked in front of my house. That is illegal. It is also a long term nuisance and blight on the community and my home. 

Walking a dog down the sidewalk is not illegal, and someone just passing by. 

Edited July 21, 2024 by User

[Matthew]

On 7/18/2024 at 9:54 AM, User said:

it is a bit specious to try to conclude that San Francisco has more homelessness because their housing prices are going up

How? The direct relationship between those two things is obviously strong and many experts who study this topic have concluded that one has a high impact upon the other.

On 7/18/2024 at 9:54 AM, User said:

Homeless people flock to larger left wing cities on the coast

Common conservative talking point, but not backed by facts. Most homeless people are homeless in the city or local area in which they used to be a rentor.

On 7/18/2024 at 11:29 AM, User said:

Is that why a homeless person in Seatle is homeless? Well, just can't afford a home, so going to live on the streets I guess. 

Yes. How do you imagine it happening? More than half of the country lives paycheck to paycheck. That can mean one disaster away from homelessness for many.  For example, a costly medical emerency, a rent increasing by $500/mo, a loss of a job means they can't pay rent and eventually get eevicted.

Some might be able to live in a hotel for a while, or in their car, or in a friend or relatives home. But if one's options like this dwindle, they can eventually end up on the street or in a homeless shelter.

On 7/18/2024 at 11:29 AM, User said:

there are a million things you can do to move to get housing to get a job starting from nothing somewhere else

Depends what kind of support network one has and other factors like whether they have kids etc. It's can be extremely difficult to get out of dire poverty without some help. Also one study from a few years ago showed that between 40-50% of homeless people do have jobs. Just not enough income to actually participate in the housing market. It's an inaccurate generalization to caricature most homeless people as druggies and unmedicated schizophrenics.

[Matthew]

On 7/19/2024 at 10:38 AM, impartialobserver said:

When I was on the street.. there were 3 distinct camps. 1. Young, able bodied, but drug addicts that deliberately lived on the street so as to avoid detection by law enforcement. These were criminals who changed their names and appearances as well as lived "off the grid". 2. Mental health issues.. folks who had severe depression, anxiety, and/or schizophrenia. Most of them self medicated in the form of drugs and/or alcohol. 3. The able bodied types that were doing everything that they can to get off the street (myself being one of them). For the second and third groups.. lower cost of housing would definitely take some of them off the street. 

Keep in mind that the people literally living unsheltered on the streets and in parks are not necessarily representative of the total homeless population, a larger percentage of which is sheltered in some way. Living with friends, in cars, in homeless shelters, squatters, etc. About 40% of homeless people in any given night are unsheltered. Those with drug and severe mental health problems are probably far more likely to be chronically unsheltered, which might have skewed your observations.

[herbie]

18 hours ago, User said:

You presented a woman living out of her vehicle parked in front of my house. That is illegal.

Oooh it's against the LAW. how awful. Just like those filthy hippies that smoked pot and those Indians who made their own salt. And those rebellious colonials who wouldn't pay the tea tax to their lawful King.

-besides of which, it's NOT a crime. Unless they exceed a time limit and even then it's a mere city bylaw violation.

He fixed his front step with out the proper permit. Lock him up, lock him up!

[User]

10 minutes ago, herbie said:

Oooh it's against the LAW. how awful. Just like those filthy hippies that smoked pot and those Indians who made their own salt. And those rebellious colonials who wouldn't pay the tea tax to their lawful King.

-besides of which, it's NOT a crime. Unless they exceed a time limit and even then it's a mere city bylaw violation.

He fixed his front step with out the proper permit. Lock him up, lock him up!

Amazing how you dishonestly ignored over half my response. 

" It is also a long term nuisance and blight on the community and my home. "

 

[herbie]

Same bot programming? Ignore what was posted and reply to anything else?

3 posts you claim public property as your own and a consistent NIMBY attitude, no interest in offering a solution to the problem.

[User]

4 hours ago, herbie said:

Same bot programming? Ignore what was posted and reply to anything else?

3 posts you claim public property as your own and a consistent NIMBY attitude, no interest in offering a solution to the problem.

No where did I claim public property as my own. 

You were the one arguing that someone gets to use the public property in front of my house as their own. 

The problem was that someone was using the street in front of my home as their home. The solution is to remove them. 

[impartialobserver]

18 hours ago, herbie said:

Same bot programming? Ignore what was posted and reply to anything else?

3 posts you claim public property as your own and a consistent NIMBY attitude, no interest in offering a solution to the problem.

The poster that you are conversing with honestly thinks that involuntary incarceration would not only be sufficient but also necessary. It carries with no costs of course. The police work for free as do those in corrections. Their time is infinite.. Time spent policing homelessness does not carry with it any opportunity costs. 

[User]

1 hour ago, impartialobserver said:

The poster that you are conversing with honestly thinks that involuntary incarceration would not only be sufficient but also necessary. It carries with no costs of course. The police work for free as do those in corrections. Their time is infinite.. Time spent policing homelessness does not carry with it any opportunity costs. 

Feel free to actually quote anything "the poster" said and make your argument there. Or, just keep being dishonest.