Canadian Muslims simply un-Canadian?

[Leafless]

Australian Prime Minister John Howard suggested Muslims simply don't fit in and Australia does not have similar problems with other cultures.

Is the jihad the root of Muslim aggression?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4731878.stm

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/990

[Hicksey]

I don't think saying Muslims are anti-Canadian is the right thing to say--or rather the right way to say it. Its too broad a generalization. In my travels, I've seen many Muslims that function peacefully and prosper within our society--and greatly respect it.

The real problem is that there is a vocal minority of Muslims that are basically violent, backward and all-encompassed with hating everything not Muslim. The people do a great service to the silent majority, that are generally peaceful and respectful to cultures other than their own.

[Leafless]

Hicksey

You wrote- " I don't think Muslims are anti-Canadian is the right thing to say- or rather the right way to say it."

I did not say Muslims are "anti- Canadian", what I said was un-Canadian. There is a difference and some could very well be anti-Canadian now that you mentioned it.

By un-Canadian I am implying they are more self absorbed with Islam and jihad than they are with activities based on Canadian culture simply known as the NORM.

[geoffrey]

Hicksey

You wrote- " I don't think Muslims are anti-Canadian is the right thing to say- or rather the right way to say it."

I did not say Muslims are "anti- Canadian", what I said was un-Canadian. There is a difference and some could very well be anti-Canadian now that you mentioned it.

By un-Canadian I am implying they are more self absorbed with Islam and jihad than they are with activities based on Canadian culture simply known as the NORM.

Last time I checked jihad isn't a Canadian value so I'm going to have to agree with John Howard. Their religion is obviously the cause of all their aggression, what else makes sense?

[Black Dog]

Are Canadian Muslims big on jihad? Are Canadian Muslims rioting? No? So what the hell are y'all talking about?

[Hicksey]

Hicksey

You wrote- " I don't think Muslims are anti-Canadian is the right thing to say- or rather the right way to say it."

I did not say Muslims are "anti- Canadian", what I said was un-Canadian. There is a difference and some could very well be anti-Canadian now that you mentioned it.

By un-Canadian I am implying they are more self absorbed with Islam and jihad than they are with activities based on Canadian culture simply known as the NORM.

Last time I checked jihad isn't a Canadian value so I'm going to have to agree with John Howard. Their religion is obviously the cause of all their aggression, what else makes sense?

If that were true all Muslims in this country would be participating in the uproar.

[geoffrey]

Are Canadian Muslims big on jihad? Are Canadian Muslims rioting? No? So what the hell are y'all talking about?

There was a story in Calgary a little while ago, read this. Some kind of temporary sex marriage then slanderous comments ended up with two little kids dead in a firebombing.

And then we have our local freak shows.

Theres alot of Canadian muslims big on jihad and their religious laws being proliferated throughout our country. It was long ago that Ontario was considering adopting Islamic law as a dispute avoidance mechanism.

[Black Dog]

There was a story in Calgary a little while ago, read this. Some kind of temporary sex marriage then slanderous comments ended up with two little kids dead in a firebombing.

Are family violence/marital disputes strictly Muslim problems? No.

As for the Khadr's: again, how are they representative of Muslims in Canada?

Theres alot of Canadian muslims big on jihad and their religious laws being proliferated throughout our country. It was long ago that Ontario was considering adopting Islamic law as a dispute avoidance mechanism.

And? Religious based arbitration is also commonly used by Jews and Chrisitians.

One more thing: I went back over Howard's comments and its pretty clear from his quotes he's talking about a "fragment " of the Muslinm population, not the whole shebang.

[Leafless]

Black Dog

You wrote- " I went over Howards comments and it's pretty clear from his quotes he's talking about a "fragment" of the Muslim population and not the whole shebang."

The fragment he is talking about are the Muslim extremist who "rave on about" jihad.

Prime Minister howard expressed concern that some aspects of Muslim's life were incompatiable with Australian culture and traditons.

You also wrote - " Are Canadian Muslims big on jihad? Are Canadian Muslims rioting?No? So what the hell are y'all taking about?"

Canada does have Muslim it's share of "incidents" involving Muslims including a firebombing in Montreal, an attempt to implement "shariah law", Muslim unacceptance of traditonal Christianity in public schools even affecting our Christian Christmas and yes Muslims have protested upholding violent actions related to the "Cartoon dispute".

But the again I suspect you will never see in Canada the type of Muslim violence associated with so many other countries due to the fact having the U.S.A. on our doorstep.

[Black Dog]

The fragment he is talking about are the Muslim extremist who "rave on about" jihad.

Prime Minister howard expressed concern that some aspects of Muslim's life were incompatiable with Australian culture and traditons.

Which you seem to have misinterpreted as a indictment of all Muslims, who you say are un-Canadian. Going back over your coments you don't make a similar disclaimer, so it's no wonder one coudl assume you're talking about ALL Muslims in Canada.

Canada does have Muslim it's share of "incidents" involving Muslims including a firebombing in Montreal, an attempt to implement "shariah law", Muslim unacceptance of traditonal Christianity in public schools even affecting our Christian Christmas and yes Muslims have protested upholding violent actions related to the "Cartoon dispute".

These are fragments themselves that don't necessarily add up to a complete picture. For example: the firebombing. Anti-Semetic acts are, unfortunately, all too common in Canada. I lived across the street fromt the Edmonton synagougue that was vandalized on Christmas Day, an act attributed to neo-Nazis. Now, I understand the people arrested in Montreal are Muslim(?). I also understand that anti-Semetism is an issue in the Muslim community (as it clearly is among non-Muslims), but that doesn't make all Muslims anti-semites.

As for sharia law, it's not as though they were trying to get sharia law instituted as the law of the land: as I said, religious arbitration is practiced by other communities.

Similarily, you can't pin unacceptance of religious imagry in public schools on Muslims (I think such displays are inappropriate because I'm an atheist). And I don't know what you mean by "upheld violent actions": Canadian Muslim organizations across the board have condemned the violent response and encouraged dialogue and peaceful protest.

[geoffrey]

As for sharia law, it's not as though they were trying to get sharia law instituted as the law of the land: as I said, religious arbitration is practiced by other communities.

BD: This is my biggest concern. Even as a method of religious arbitration, can we accept a legal system that deprives women of rights and encourages such values as polygamy? That is Sharia law, I don't accept that we should just accept a dumb-downed version of a legal system that promotes the abuses of basic human rights.

While I understand that most Muslims don't encourage this, many leaders in the Mosques do take these 'un-Canadian' positions, on issues such as polygamy and women's rights.

This concerns me.

[crazymf]

Hehe

This thread reminds me of a saying we had back in high school.

"I don't hate (ethnic minority of your choice) generally, I hate them all individually."

I also don't care for threads like this because while I joke about hating, it's only joking. This thread inspires racism to those who may read it and take heart from it.

We all came to this country from somewhere else, or your grandparents did, whatever. Being Canadian is being able to get along with differences in religion and beliefs. We as natural Canadians need to literally express peace and goodwill towards all people, always, not just at xmas. If a people start to act out, so what. At least they live in a country where they can. Take the criminals out of the bunch and let the law deal with them.

I think things have to get a hell of a lot worse around here before I look down on Muslims more than Quebecers or Ontarians.

[Black Dog]

BD: This is my biggest concern. Even as a method of religious arbitration, can we accept a legal system that deprives women of rights and encourages such values as polygamy? That is Sharia law, I don't accept that we should just accept a dumb-downed version of a legal system that promotes the abuses of basic human rights.

The pros and cons of sharia law are a topic for another discussion, one we could probably find some common ground on. The crux of the matter, though, is that labelling this group or that group as "un-Canadian" smacks of nativism. Let me put it this way: saying "sharia law is un-Canadian" is a solid debate position; taking that furthe rto say "Muslims are un-Canadian" is a useless generalization.

[Leafless]

Black Dog

You wrote- " The crux of the matter though, is that labelling this group or that group as un-Canadian smacks of nativism."

And why shouldn't it smack of nativism as the country was built on Canadian cultures and traditions of native Canadians. If you are born in Canada you become a native Canadian contributing to Canadianism or it's culture and traditons. You make it sound like Canada is a country of nobody's, void of any identity---keep dreaming.

You seem to think it appears immigrants come to this country to implement or ply their religion and politics into mainstream Canada. Most religions are not problamatic but I and many other Canadians say Islam coupled with it's politics is an aggressive religion and if followed by the book clashes with Canadian culture like it does in many countries throughout the world.

Sorry immigrants are invited to this country with hopes and guidence to be assimilated to Canadian culture and traditions becoming part of what is best described as normal Canadian domesticated activities. They are not invited here to the best of my knowledge to throw a monkey wrench into the system causing political and religious unrest.

[fixer1]

From my own prospective it is not that Muslims do not fit in but they want to not fit in. Being a muslim is not just a religion but a way of life to them. The koran has its rules laid out on how you are supposed to live your life and serve your riligion. That leaves very little left to try and fit into our open society. In fact many of the rules under the Koran are illegal here in Canada, even though we turn a blind eye to much of it.

I would say that a religious muslim who is a moderate probably would make an ok neighbour, but that you probaly would not approve of the heirarchy within their family values. It is also quite possible that if you were a daughter in this family that you would not be happy, but that does not mean their daughters must also be unhappy. While we have cut them much slack on their reigious views, we also have to be prepared to grant any one the rights we all have here in Canada if they so seek it. We can not force it upon them.

[newbie]

Sorry immigrants are invited to this country with hopes and guidence to be assimilated to Canadian culture and traditions becoming part of what is best described as normal Canadian domesticated activities. They are not invited here to the best of my knowledge to throw a monkey wrench into the system causing political and religious unrest.

Well, you can thank Mulroney for that. He pushed the multiculturalism to the limit, even signing an act to that effect. I have nothing against turbans on RCMP, but that was just the beginning of the endless concessions we seem to be handing out to immigrants.

[justcrowing]

And it was Trudeau who opened the door to Multiculturism. Game blame doesn't wash but what matters now is how are we going to deal with it - it is only a question of time before similar problems emerge here. This is what is happening abroad & in the U.S .... Click on links for full article.

b] Gaming western liberalism[/b]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucjl/20060213/cm_u...sternliberalism

ISLAMIC RADICALS TAKE ADVANTAGE OF WESTERN LIBERALISM

By John Leo Sun Feb 12, 8:42 PM ET

Is the biggest issue in the cartoon controversy free expression,

sensitivity or fear? One vote here for none of the above. The key question

may be this: Are Muslims in Europe going to live by the rules of the West,

or by the rules of Islam?

Every now and then, a European nation decides to put its foot down,

banning headscarves in French schools, expelling some jihadist imams in

three nations, and deporting Muslim illegals as the Netherlands did after

two high-profile murders that shocked the nation. But on the whole, Europe

has chosen weakness and backpedaling.

A British judge agreed to bar Jews and Hindus from the jury at the

trial of a Muslim. Sheikh Qaradawi was welcomed in London, despite his call

for the murder of homosexuals and the fact that he himself was wanted for

murder in Egypt. King Ferdinand III, who fought to win Spain's independence

from the Moors, was removed as patron saint of the annual fiesta in Seville

out of deference to Muslim feelings.

The Dutch Language Union decreed that the word Christ would now be

spelled with a lowercase "c," starting in August. Crucifixes are

disappearing from hospitals, and some Muslims are demanding that statues of

Dante be removed, because the poet's "Divine Comedy" placed Muhammad in

hell. A government office in Britain banned Winnie the Pooh, piggy banks and

other images of pigs so Muslims wouldn't have to see them -- a small but

galling example of Europe's unwillingness to live by its own standards.

In France, more than 10,000 cars were torched in 2005, mostly, it

appears, by young Muslims. Ho-hum. In the post-cartoon demonstrations in

Britain, police ignored the signs saying "Exterminate those who mock Islam"

and "Be prepared for the real holocaust," but quickly arrested two

counterprotesters carrying posters with images of Muhammad. In the first

cartoon riots in Denmark last September, Danish police were warned to stay

out of Muslim neighborhoods. As one Muslim said, "This is our area. We rule

this place."

Europe is facing more opportunities to back down. Muslim fathers in

Linz, Austria, are demanding that all female teachers, whether Muslim or

not, be required to wear headscarves in school. The Muslim Council of

Britain, which justifies Palestinian suicide bombers, wants Holocaust Day

eliminated.

Much of the Muslim assertiveness is an outgrowth of Europe's

disastrous love affair with multiculturalism. In theory, immigrants were to

be encouraged to maintain their own identity and traditions in exchange for

accepting Europe's system of shared values. In practice, it has mostly been

a plan for hands-off separatism and resistance to assimilation.

Governments offer financial help in building schools and places of

worship, and encourage the importing of imams from Arab countries, many of

them predictably haters of the West. Raed Hlayhel, an imam in Denmark, for

instance, was part of an entourage that toured the Middle East, building

rage over the cartoons. He and the other imams took along several fabricated

cartoons, one showing Muhammad as a pedophile and another depicting him

having sex with a dog. Shouldn't these provocations earn each of these imams

a one-way trip back to the Middle East?

As historian Fred Siegel of New York's Cooper Union points out, many

of the imams have taken a page out of

Yasser Arafat's book, speaking tolerantly in Europe, but calling for

blood when on the Arab media. He says Muslim spokesman know how to game

Western liberalism, demanding free speech when they deny the Holocaust, then

dropping the free-speech argument and arguing that anti-Muslim criticisms

and cartoons should be censored on grounds of multicultural sensitivity.

Europe has a hard decision on what to do with the so-called

"conveyor-belt" Islamist groups that do not commit terrorism themselves, but

recruit and indoctrinate young males, then turn them over to terrorist

groups. One of them, Hizb ut-Tahrir, active in Denmark and more than 40

other countries, played an incendiary role in the cartoon controversy. "By

combining fascist rhetoric, Leninist strategy and Western sloganeering with

Wahhabi theology, Hizb ut-Tahrir has made itself into a very real and potent

threat that is extremely difficulty for liberal societies to counter," Zeyno

Baran of Washington's Nixon Center wrote in Foreign Affairs.

The conveyor belts are designed to take advantage of the West's

protections of free speech and civil liberties. But they are dangerous parts

of the broader terrorist operation. Germany banned Hizb ut-Tahrir. Other

nations should too. If the West doesn't stop the spread of Islamic

radicalism, the danger will soon be far graver than it is now.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

More here: http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21334

Textbooks Proselytize for Allah

By Kalavai Venkat

FrontPageMagazine.com | February 17, 2006

Muslim organizations have not only used California schools and textbooks to

proselytize for Allah, but they now seek to portray other religions through

an Islamic prism, claim the modern Jews do not have an historical connection

to the nation of Israel, and reintroduce the charge of deicide to American

textbooks. At least three major publishers whose textbooks are under

consideration for adoption by the State of California – Ballard & Tighe,

Houghton-Mifflin, and McDougal Littell – have enlisted Shabbir Mansuri,

Founding Director of Council on Islamic Education (CIE), as content

consultant. Publishers shared their pre-print edition of textbooks with CIE,

thereby facilitating the sanitizing of Islam before the textbooks made it to

the public domain. But that was apparently not enough for CIE; they have

submitted an additional set of edits that would help seventh grade

Californians understand their respective religions from an Islamic

perspective.

Just Call Allah “God”

The would-be textbook editors insist the deity of Islam not be identified as

“Allah,” but rather “God.” One proposed CIE edit reads:

In describing the beliefs, the authors’ insistence on leaving the word Allah

un-translated in some instances creates the impression that Allah is the

distinct god of the Arabs, rather than the One God worshipped by Jews,

Christians, Muslims and others. [CIEAP – 3; ML – 80-138, 350-354, 498-499]

In effect, this would have the State of California certify that the Muslim

deity is the true God. At the same time, if this proposed edit is accepted,

not only Peoples of the Book, but even “idolaters” can take comfort in the

“fact” that Allah is their God. Since textbooks portray Islam as a

replacement of other Abrahamic religions, supplanting “God” for “Allah” will

help impressionable children internalize their portrayal of Islam as the

final revelation to mankind.

CIE also insists that the word “God” should replace all names given to God

in Judaism:

The Hebrew name for God is never pronounced by Jews, as it is considered too

holy. God is represented by the Hebrew letters YHWH. As indicated, the

references to “Yahweh” should be changed to “God,” just as the Arabic word

“Allah” should be introduced and then all subsequent references should be to

“God.” [CIEAP – 6; HRW – Item 12, SE 232]

One is curious why CIE did not propose words such as Adonai or Ha-Shem,

which the Jews use to refer to God…or when it became a Muslim concern.

Perhaps textbooks should teach the fact that Allah was one of the presiding

deities of the pre-Islamic Pagan Arabs, who worshipped Allah (then addressed

Al-ilah) as the Moon God. It would ensure that children practicing other

religions are not misled into thinking that God is synonymous with Allah.

But that would work against CIE’s apparent agenda of using school textbooks

to proselytize.

[Black Dog]

And why shouldn't it smack of nativism as the country was built on Canadian cultures and traditions of native Canadians. If you are born in Canada you become a native Canadian contributing to Canadianism or it's culture and traditons. You make it sound like Canada is a country of nobody's, void of any identity---keep dreaming.

Here's the rub: who defines what it means to be Canadian? I happen to belive that Canadian identity includes a measure of tolerance for other beliefs and does not demand total assimilation. But again, that's not the issue. The issue is you are singling out an entire group for judgement based on a very select and (in some cases) inaccurate reading of select current events.

You seem to think it appears immigrants come to this country to implement or ply their religion and politics into mainstream Canada. Most religions are not problamatic but I and many other Canadians say Islam coupled with it's politics is an aggressive religion and if followed by the book clashes with Canadian culture like it does in many countries throughout the world.

I don't see why someone's desire to retain there native clture and beliefs is such a bad thing. Obviously, I'm not religious and I certainly don't believe in or support many of the problematic parts of Islam (or any other religion for that matter). But I'm not about to question anyone's patriotism based on their personal beliefs because I have confidence in the bedrock principles of democracy.

Sorry immigrants are invited to this country with hopes and guidence to be assimilated to Canadian culture and traditions becoming part of what is best described as normal Canadian domesticated activities. They are not invited here to the best of my knowledge to throw a monkey wrench into the system causing political and religious unrest.

But you haven't done a particularily good job of demonstrating why this one group above all others deserves such scrutiny.

[Leafless]

Black Dog

You wrote- " The issue is you are singling out an entire group for judgement based on a very select and (in some cases) inaccurate reading of current events."

I am amazed whenever I hear denial to the murderous and violent actions of Muslims around the world someone always appears and removes the blame from the majority of Muzlims to the actions of a few.

Strange thing to that there is no outcry of condemnation to acts of murder and violence upheaval and rioting from Canadian Muzlims as a group safely snuggled away in the depths of Canadian society.

There are over 30 Islamic terrorist organizations.

Islam is a lot more thean a religion including 'the laws of Islam' including jihad that to many Muzlims are more important than the laws of the land.

There are radical Muslims, terrorist, insurgents, extremist Muzlims, moderate Muzlims but why are so many still attached to a volatile religion like Islam in places like Canada, countries in Europe.

Where is the moderate ARAB? And why are Canadians driven in circles by to decipher what Muzlims are all about when all we read and hear is more violent actions from even more Muslims around the globe.

I draw a line in order to preserve my own sanity and Muzlims have not proven to me that they the harmless group they say they are.

You also wrote- " But I am not about to question anyone's patronage based on their personal beliefs because I have confidence in the bedrock principles of democracy."

So do I...I guess we'll just have to wait it out and see what transpires.

You also wrote-" But you haven't done a particullary good job why this one group above all others deserves such scrunity."

Thats not really my job but I think the media has done a wonderful job on keeping those who wish to be informed ...informed concerning actions of that particular group.

[Spike22]

Black Dog

You wrote- " The issue is you are singling out an entire group for judgement based on a very select and (in some cases) inaccurate reading of current events."

I am amazed whenever I hear denial to the murderous and violent actions of Muslims around the world someone always appears and removes the blame from the majority of Muzlims to the actions of a few.

Strange thing to that there is no outcry of condemnation to acts of murder and violence upheaval and rioting from Canadian Muzlims as a group safely snuggled away in the depths of Canadian society.

There are over 30 Islamic terrorist organizations.

Islam is a lot more thean a religion including 'the laws of Islam' including jihad that to many Muzlims are more important than the laws of the land.

There are radical Muslims, terrorist, insurgents, extremist Muzlims, moderate Muzlims but why are so many still attached to a volatile religion like Islam in places like Canada, countries in Europe.

Where is the moderate ARAB? And why are Canadians driven in circles by to decipher what Muzlims are all about when all we read and hear is more violent actions from even more Muslims around the globe.

I draw a line in order to preserve my own sanity and Muzlims have not proven to me that they the harmless group they say they are.

You also wrote- " But I am not about to question anyone's patronage based on their personal beliefs because I have confidence in the bedrock principles of democracy."

So do I...I guess we'll just have to wait it out and see what transpires.

You also wrote-" But you haven't done a particullary good job why this one group above all others deserves such scrunity."

Thats not really my job but I think the media has done a wonderful job on keeping those who wish to be informed ...informed concerning actions of that particular group.

Like all groups there are some radicals. However I think the world muslims (especially in places like Pakistan and other countries where the radical muslims originate) could do a better job expressing their displeasure of violent acts. Seems to me they should all be on the same page. Is there not the equivelent of the pope or master leader/grand pubba that can speak on behalf of the religion? We even have 1 muslim leader in Pakistan offering $1 mil for the cartoonists head, is this normal for a suposed peaceful religion. Imagine if we freaked everytime Christ or Moses or Budda was made fun of we'd all be in the looney bin.