PM is distressed

[Hicksey]

Army guy,

One of the soldiers you quoted wrote:

"When we as soldiers move into another country, whether to keep or enforce the peace, we respect the fact that the host country is unique in its beliefs and culture. We try to leave the country (at some point) with minimal cultural impact.

We respect their holidays and events; we go so far as to try not to eat or drink in front of Muslims during Ramadan out of respect for their culture, even while in our own camp. "

If you could so graciously afford to give that kind of respect and courtesy to a foreign country when you're on their soil....then why can't you expect the same kind from any of them when they are on ours.

After all, no one forced anybody to come to our country...in fact, we've opened our doors to anyone who'd wish to take part in this culture!

It just so happened that our culture involved having the freedom to express our opinions and the freedom of the press to print what they decide ought to be printed.

These people came and most escaped from a culture of abuse where freedom hardly exists. They need to adjust to this new culture that is abundant with all sorts of freedom....not the other way around!

Good point betsy. Try as we might, good manners cannot be legislated. And the rights of the rest of society needn't be abridged because a few are devoid of tact.

[Spike22]

The PM has been distressed now according to this forum post for 2 weeks now, when will he get over it?

[Wilber]

The PM has been distressed now according to this forum post for 2 weeks now, when will he get over it?

He was probably over it 5 minutes after he made his announcement.

[Argus]

So if the appeasers get their way we prohibit cartoons of Muslims. Next month they'll be rioting and killing over an op-ed piece in a paper. So we prohibit opinon pieces which are insulting to Islam. The following month they'll riot over a video game, or a song on the radio, or a T-shirt someone wore, or something else. Eventually, we're left with nothing but bowing and scraping.

Appeasment doesn't work. It never has. It buys the frightened people a little time, and that's it.

Ya your right it has nevered worked, then perhaps you can inform the crowd here on why we have censorship

We have very little. That is why I oppose the frightened people like you who want more, much, much, much more. Who want laws to punish anyone who says or does or writes anything which might offend the scary! people.

why i can bring you to court over something you have said or written because i find it offending. why we have laws on racism, hate, etc,etc. When in reality your freedom of speech already has limitations to it. and is passed into law.

So if I understand your "logic", because we have laws that allow individuals who have been caused actual harm by lies to sue, and hate laws which ban inciting genocide, we should have many, many more laws to prevent foreigners from being offended somehow. Have I got that right?

Are you protesting those laws is this what all this is about.

I have, in fact, protested against the so-called "hate" laws. I regard them as a serious infringement on freedom of speech, and anyone who supports them as a fool.

Or are just again'st using common sense or respect. and are unable to communicate without offending anyone.

You can't legislate respect, and if you're afraid of giving offense to fanatics then you should find yourself a hole and jump in.

If exercising our freedoms seems too dangerous for you, if it worries you that exercising those freedoms might provoke bad people into commiting violence, then find another profession.

The is always a red neck in the crowd who firmly believes it is his or her god given right to say what ever comes to mind without consquence and to hide behind "it is our freedom of speech"

Darn those rednecks! Them and their ridiculous "freedom of speech"! How dumb is that!? Imagine the nerve of those primitve people thinking they can say what they want! Why, we need laws to put people like that in prison - no, no camps. That's right, we can uh, concentrate them all together, so that no one will dare ever say or write anything which offends anyone again!

I and many others in uniform think our lifes are worth more than a cartoon.

Yeah, well, here's the thing. We don't pay "you" and guys like you, to think. In fact, the reason you do what you do is because it doesn't take much brain power, doesn't take any imagination or education. Any moron can dig a ditch and pull a trigger, and plenty have. So excuse us for not bowing and scraping because someone who "claims" they went to Afghanistan is here snivelling about us wanting to hang onto something as trivial and unnecessary as freedom of speech. Because it's quite clear you lack any acquaintance with the precedents of history or law or the consequences of criminalizing opinions. All you want to do is bow before anyone who threatens you, and to cringe away from anything which smacks of confrontation.

Fortunately, as I said, you don't make the decisions.

[geoffrey]

Acutally Army Guy, I have a friend in Afghanistan currently and he completely disagrees with any concept that most troops are upset about the cartoons being printed.

Freedom of speech is one of the things I pay you to protect!

[BubberMiley]

Freedom of speech is one of the things I pay you to protect!

You personally pay him? Is there some kind of kickback scheme in the Canadian military I don't know about?

[Argus]

Freedom of speech is one of the things I pay you to protect!

You personally pay him? Is there some kind of kickback scheme in the Canadian military I don't know about?

Technically, we as a society do offer up funding to hire people to protect us. Just like I pay an alarm company to monitor my burglar and fire alarms.

What AG is saying is he doesn't like our behaviour, he feels it makes it more dangerous to protect us. To which the fair comment is "then quit", because we're not going to change our behaviour to make you - or us - safer. Freedom of speech and expression is the bedrock of all other freedoms and of the success of any democracy. Anything which threatens that is extremely dangeorous. Clearly AG doesn't see that. His world view is a very narrow one.

[BubberMiley]

But (hypothetically because I often don't debate how I actually think) freedom of speech has always ended around yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre because of the foreseeable shitstorm that would ensue. So maybe it should end at yelling "your prophet has a bomb in his turban" too.

[Argus]

But (hypothetically because I often don't debate how I actually think) freedom of speech has always ended around yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre because of the foreseeable shitstorm that would ensue. So maybe it should end at yelling "your prophet has a bomb in his turban" too.

Yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre is public mischief, just as setting off a smoke bomb would be. The purpose is not to enlighten or argue or give opinion, but to cause distress and panic.

There are a number of purposes in criticising aspects of Islam as practiced in the world today, especially as Islam is also a political movement in so many countries, which seeks to substitute a theocratic government for whatever is there at present, and substitute archaic religious laws for present-day criminal codes.

The cartoons were merely editorials, and not particularly harsh ones either. If we bow to the Islamists on this merely because it offends their delicate sensibilities where else do we draw the line? Can you criticise Islam by doing a documentary, for example? Apparently not as they killed a Dutch filmmaker for his efforts. Can you write a book which is critical of Islam? Apparently not, as Rushdie is still in hiding.

Where does a free, non-sectarian, secular society draw the line in allowing religious fanatics to intimidate it by force into abiding by the dictates of their religion?

[betsy]

And all i'm asking is some common sense to be used, apparently thats to much to ask.And if we can not use our common sense and respect, how do we except to convince other nations to follow our lead and example.

Aren't you confused about this?

Aren't we supposed to introduce democracy into that area? That's the whole point isn't it, why Canada is in Afghanistan on a COMBAT mission....to assist that new DEMOCRATIC government to establish itself?

What kind of a democracy are you going to give them as "an example to follow?" A farce?The kind of democracy where what they need to do is CONTINUE DOING WHAT THEY'VE BEEN DOING ALL ALONG TO GET THEIR OWN WAY?

To be heard thru violent means? That by using violence, definitely some liberal-minded pacifists will do some appeasing?

Worse, we tweak and modify our own democratic system to accomodate their way?

"Follow our lead and example" indeed.

[betsy]

But (hypothetically because I often don't debate how I actually think) freedom of speech has always ended around yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre because of the foreseeable shitstorm that would ensue. So maybe it should end at yelling "your prophet has a bomb in his turban" too.

No, no, no.

For the Canadian muslims who are offended, they can practice their new-found freedom by writing their opinion to the Western Standard. Letters to the editor, if they like.

If we want multiculturalism to have a chance to work out well, everyone ought to go by the system of this country. We cannot accomodate appeasing and pandering to every culture and religion that exist in this country. We'll end up with a tattered mess!

That's just plain common sense.

[Hicksey]

But (hypothetically because I often don't debate how I actually think) freedom of speech has always ended around yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre because of the foreseeable shitstorm that would ensue. So maybe it should end at yelling "your prophet has a bomb in his turban" too.

No, no, no.

For the Canadian muslims who are offended, they can practice their new-found freedom by writing their opinion to the Western Standard. Letters to the editor, if they like.

If we want multiculturalism to have a chance to work out well, everyone ought to go by the system of this country. We cannot accomodate appeasing and pandering to every culture and religion that exist in this country. We'll end up with a tattered mess!

That's just plain common sense.

The last I checked this was Canada, not Iran or Iraq or some other muslim nation. I think betsy has made the point as good as any will make it. When you come here, you must bend to us, not us to you. When you come here you must learn to work within our system. If you don't like the way we do things, you're free to leave. We simply cannot keep appeasing to every new immigrant that walks in.

[Wilber]

Twice I've posted a link showing cartoons printed in the Arab media. No reaction. There is a definate double standard here when it comes to who it is OK to offend.

Perhaps it depends on who's theater one is yelling "Fire" for folks like BubberMiley.

[BubberMiley]

We simply cannot keep appeasing to every new immigrant that walks in.

This has nothing to do with multiculturalism or immigration because it isn't Canadian muslims who are burning Danish flags or acting violently. Multiculturalism is an entirely different story that I can only defend when I'm playing devil's advocate.

[BubberMiley]

Perhaps it depends on who's theater one is yelling "Fire" for folks like BubberMiley.

Exactly. I talked about the "foreseeable shitstorm." My arguments are purely based on what I see as my own self-interest. I can be swayed to any position if I can be convinced it serves me better, and if I have more to lose than to gain by something, I'm against it.

[Wilber]

Perhaps it depends on who's theater one is yelling "Fire" for folks like BubberMiley.

Exactly. I talked about the "foreseeable shitstorm." My arguments are purely based on what I see as my own self-interest. I can be swayed to any position if I can be convinced it serves me better, and if I have more to lose than to gain by something, I'm against it.

So you are an appeaser. The 100,000 Canadians who died in 20th century wars so you can be one would be proud of you. It's OK to throw filth at Jews because they are civilized enough that they won't kick your miserable ass. But then they know better. The last time they put their faith in people like you, six million of them got slaughtered. They won't make that mistake again.

[Hicksey]

My main problem with the whole issue is not whether or not someone is insulted. Its not really an issue because what to one religion or country is an insult is not to another. Situations like this one are bound to happen whether intended or not. But I don't think thought/speech police is the answer. I think its up to all of us to do what is reasonable to both avoid such situations and to react accordingly. I think as a people we have to realize that we are going to hear things we don't like and that we can't take a little tantrum every time it happens. Conversely we should also try to avoid knowingly causing such situations. I think people have it in them to be that civilized.

Those who use things like the cartoons as an excuse for violence were already violent and just looking for an excuse anyway. Free speech shouldn't be abridged because of a few neanderthals.

[BubberMiley]

The last time they put their faith in people like you, six million of them got slaughtered. They won't make that mistake again.

I've heard a million holocaust analogies, but I think this might be my favourite: thinking twice about printing a cartoon is like watching 6 million jews get killed.

[BubberMiley]

Those who use things like the cartoons as an excuse for violence were already violent and just looking for an excuse anyway. Free speech shouldn't be abridged because of a few neanderthals.

I'm not sure if you're talking about the muslim radicals or Ezra Levant.

[Hicksey]

Those who use things like the cartoons as an excuse for violence were already violent and just looking for an excuse anyway. Free speech shouldn't be abridged because of a few neanderthals.

I'm not sure if you're talking about the muslim radicals or Ezra Levant.

I'm talking about anyone that can't deal with a cartoon with a measure of civility.

I've never read Ezra Levant. I like Salim Mansur though.

[Wilber]

Perhaps it depends on who's theater one is yelling "Fire" for folks like BubberMiley.

Exactly. I talked about the "foreseeable shitstorm." My arguments are purely based on what I see as my own self-interest. I can be swayed to any position if I can be convinced it serves me better, and if I have more to lose than to gain by something, I'm against it.

Do you stand for anything that you do not see as being in your own self interest? Is avoiding a possible "shitstorm" more important to you than your own freedom? Will you run and hide whenever someone objects your own countrymen exercising their freedom. I'll ask you again. What about those cartoons shown in the Arab media? What is your opinion of them? Do you think the Arab media has a right to be so righteous when they print this kind of stuff?

People who will not stand up for another's freedoms, have no right to expect any of their own.

[Hicksey]

Perhaps it depends on who's theater one is yelling "Fire" for folks like BubberMiley.

Exactly. I talked about the "foreseeable shitstorm." My arguments are purely based on what I see as my own self-interest. I can be swayed to any position if I can be convinced it serves me better, and if I have more to lose than to gain by something, I'm against it.

Do you stand for anything that you do not see as being in your own self interest? Is avoiding a possible "shitstorm" more important to you than your own freedom? Will you run and hide whenever someone objects your own countrymen exercising their freedom. I'll ask you again. What about those cartoons shown in the Arab media? What is your opinion of them? Do you think the Arab media has a right to be so righteous when they print this kind of stuff?

People who will not stand up for another's freedoms, have no right to expect any of their own.

They don't have our value system there. They don't have the same rights. You're applying our value system to a society that doesn't afford their citizens the same rights. You're asking him to stand for freedoms they don't have.

[Wilber]

Perhaps it depends on who's theater one is yelling "Fire" for folks like BubberMiley.

Exactly. I talked about the "foreseeable shitstorm." My arguments are purely based on what I see as my own self-interest. I can be swayed to any position if I can be convinced it serves me better, and if I have more to lose than to gain by something, I'm against it.

Do you stand for anything that you do not see as being in your own self interest? Is avoiding a possible "shitstorm" more important to you than your own freedom? Will you run and hide whenever someone objects your own countrymen exercising their freedom. I'll ask you again. What about those cartoons shown in the Arab media? What is your opinion of them? Do you think the Arab media has a right to be so righteous when they print this kind of stuff?

People who will not stand up for another's freedoms, have no right to expect any of their own.

They don't have our value system there. They don't have the same rights. You're applying our value system to a society that doesn't afford their citizens the same rights. You're asking him to stand for freedoms they don't have.

I'm talking about our freedoms, not theirs. The freedom of our press and our right to speak, not theirs. If you won't stick up for your own, who will you stick up for?

[betsy]

We simply cannot keep appeasing to every new immigrant that walks in.

This has nothing to do with multiculturalism or immigration because it isn't Canadian muslims who are burning Danish flags or acting violently. Multiculturalism is an entirely different story that I can only defend when I'm playing devil's advocate.

It may not be entirely about it, but of course this is attached to multi-culturalism. How can it not be?

When we're arguing about offenses and appeasing a group of immigrants whose religious belief clashes to that of our own culture. When Army Guy wants to sacrifice tweaking the basic foundation of our own culture to soothe hurt feelings...hoping to prevent this group from resorting back to the ways of their own culture back from where they came from.

[betsy]

Perhaps it depends on who's theater one is yelling "Fire" for folks like BubberMiley.

Exactly. I talked about the "foreseeable shitstorm." My arguments are purely based on what I see as my own self-interest. I can be swayed to any position if I can be convinced it serves me better, and if I have more to lose than to gain by something, I'm against it.

Well the foreseeable "shitstorm" that I see with modification and tweakings is a weakened society in the long run!

A nation utterly divided into fractions by various "lifestyles, cultures and religions...going at one another over anything or everything because there will be no CLEAR DEFINING RULES!

You'll see it in your own life-time...."shitstorms" have already been happening. Just look at all parts of the globe!