Canada's wealthiest province utterly rejects the left

[Boondoggle]

Why should we embrace the left?

We just received our 2005 Resource Rebate cheque today of a non-taxable $400.00. Thanks Ralph and the government you have led in the past years. This money tells me that things are good in our province.

Why fix it if it's not broken?

Quebec and Ontario, you can't get this money from me in any way shape or form. That feels GOOD!!

Just remember that a true conservative puts money away for rainy days. Considering that Alberta has had a bust and boom economy in the past, rebate cheques might not be the best way to use the money. Why would a "hard working" conservative want money that he/she didn't earn anyways? Wouldn't you rather a tax cut?

[na85]

I recall a lot of whining and begging coming from Alberta back when they were in the "have-nots". It seems to me that ever since they've struck oil Albertan leaders think that they have the right to direct the entire nation.

[shoop]

The Alberta Heritage Trust Fund currently sits at about $12.6 Billion dollars.

Would that be *enough* money put aside for a rainy day? btw, the Province tops it up every year so it keeps pace with inflation...

Just remember that a true conservative puts money away for rainy days. Considering that Alberta has had a bust and boom economy in the past, rebate cheques might not be the best way to use the money.

[geoffrey]

I recall a lot of whining and begging coming from Alberta back when they were in the "have-nots". It seems to me that ever since they've struck oil Albertan leaders think that they have the right to direct the entire nation.

Look at two similar occurances at nearly the same time:

The Newfoundlanders lost their cod, and they are still sitting around collecting welfare (even though they have plenty of off-shore oil and an agreement with the Feds that they get all royalties collected).

Alberta lost its oil with the NEP, and now we are the richest region in North America.

[shoop]

How old are you?

The Leduc oil strike was in 1947. Alberta has been a *have* province since then. Even the CBC says that.

I guess memories tend to fade to what we want them to be...

I recall a lot of whining and begging coming from Alberta back when they were in the "have-nots". It seems to me that ever since they've struck oil Albertan leaders think that they have the right to direct the entire nation

[Boondoggle]

Ironically the people complaining about Alberta's right-wing politics are lefty's, hanging out in the debt ridden East.

Note to the Rest of Canada: Keep spending money you don't have on health care, education, unions and civil servants, welfare programs, pensions; sooner or later your children will pay for it.

It's not that I'm against social spending in general, but you have to be able to afford these programs in the first place.

Like a business, sometimes you have to spend money to make money. Education, for example, is a worthwhile investment. It means people can get better jobs, which means a higher standard of living for them, and it means more tax revenue because of higher paying jobs, which can be considered a return on investment.

Having some debt isn't that bad if kept in check, and economic growth can also keep it under control. For example, budget cuts helped elminate the record high deficit in 1993, but the Canadian economy has grown 50% since then. That means a drop in debt to GDP ratio even if debt stays the same. In 1993, debt to GDP was over 60%. Today, it's about 38%. So, even if we increased debt, we wouldn't be where we were in 1993.

Ontario may have debt, but it also has a more robust and diverse economy than Alberta. It also has good economic growth. Paying down debt in Alberta is, however, smart because it shields it from possible vulnerability in the energy sector.

For those that want to make this a partisan issue - including some that do that but deny doing it - the US has far more debt, and more often than not, the Republicans are in power. The US also has an equivalent of just about any social program you can find in Canada despite its tendency to have right-wing governments.

[stignasty]

I recall a lot of whining and begging coming from Alberta back when they were in the "have-nots". It seems to me that ever since they've struck oil Albertan leaders think that they have the right to direct the entire nation.

Look at two similar occurances at nearly the same time:

The Newfoundlanders lost their cod, and they are still sitting around collecting welfare (even though they have plenty of off-shore oil and an agreement with the Feds that they get all royalties collected).

Alberta lost its oil with the NEP, and now we are the richest region in North America.

Alberta still has its oil. There's the difference.

Do any of you remember the "Please God, send us another oil boom. We promise not to piss it away this time" bumper stickers?

[geoffrey]

I recall a lot of whining and begging coming from Alberta back when they were in the "have-nots". It seems to me that ever since they've struck oil Albertan leaders think that they have the right to direct the entire nation.

Look at two similar occurances at nearly the same time:

The Newfoundlanders lost their cod, and they are still sitting around collecting welfare (even though they have plenty of off-shore oil and an agreement with the Feds that they get all royalties collected).

Alberta lost its oil with the NEP, and now we are the richest region in North America.

Alberta still has its oil. There's the difference.

Do any of you remember the "Please God, send us another oil boom. We promise not to piss it away this time" bumper stickers?

And Newfoundland has oil. Why are they poor and we are not?

[shoop]

Yes, remember those well.

The $12.6 Billion in the Heritage Savings Trust Fund, is one example of *not pissing them money away*.

The $3.5 Billion in the Debt Retirement Account, is what justifies Alberta being considered debt free. This money will be used to pay off the remaining debt when it matures.

Albertans are being a lot shrewder this time around. But if you look at the factors that caused the first boom (late 70s and early 80s) and compare it to the causes of this boom we are much more secure in higher oil prices lasting a lot longer this time around.

Alberta still has its oil. There's the difference.

Do any of you remember the "Please God, send us another oil boom. We promise not to piss it away this time" bumper stickers?

[stignasty]

And Newfoundland has oil. Why are they poor and we are not?

In 2003 Alberta accounted for:

* 66% of Canada's conventional oil

* 81% of Canada's natural gas

* 100% of Canada's bitumen and synthetic crude oil

In 2003, Alberta's oil sales were:

* 62% to the United States of America

* 24% within Alberta

* 14% to the rest of Canada

Alberta also holds an 5% share of the U.S. crude oil market.

[geoffrey]

And Newfoundland has oil. Why are they poor and we are not?

In 2003 Alberta accounted for:

* 66% of Canada's conventional oil

* 81% of Canada's natural gas

* 100% of Canada's bitumen and synthetic crude oil

In 2003, Alberta's oil sales were:

* 62% to the United States of America

* 24% within Alberta

* 14% to the rest of Canada

Alberta also holds an 5% share of the U.S. crude oil market.

I can't be held responsible for Newfoundland's government's poor promotion of their provincial resources. While your on your little statistics quest, look up proven reserves in non-bitumen and synthetics. You'll find Alberta alot more on par with the rest of Canada.

Considering there is some 175bbl/d (incl. bitumen) in Alberta and the whole national only produces 2.7bbl/d, Newfoundland does have the capacity to meet 10% of Alberta's production, which per capita would create the same cash flow at equal royalty rates.

Why haven't they?

[Boondoggle]

I recall a lot of whining and begging coming from Alberta back when they were in the "have-nots". It seems to me that ever since they've struck oil Albertan leaders think that they have the right to direct the entire nation.

Look at two similar occurances at nearly the same time:

The Newfoundlanders lost their cod, and they are still sitting around collecting welfare (even though they have plenty of off-shore oil and an agreement with the Feds that they get all royalties collected).

Alberta lost its oil with the NEP, and now we are the richest region in North America.

Alberta still has its oil. There's the difference.

Do any of you remember the "Please God, send us another oil boom. We promise not to piss it away this time" bumper stickers?

And Newfoundland has oil. Why are they poor and we are not?

They don't have nearly as much.

The key to developing the economy in the Maratimes is to attract more business. Young people often move out of the area to find job opportunities. It's a very rural area so that can be challenging. I think it would be better in the long term to try to develop more of a skill based economy than resource, but perhaps money from oil production can kick start that.

[geoffrey]

And Newfoundland has oil. Why are they poor and we are not?

They don't have nearly as much.

The key to developing the economy in the Maratimes is to attract more business. Young people often move out of the area to find job opportunities. It's a very rural area so that can be challenging. I think it would be better in the long term to try to develop more of a skill based economy than resource, but perhaps money from oil production can kick start that.

Alberta would take 90 years to exploit proven reserves including bitumen, not to mention all the unproven reserves that would total about 270 years at current extraction rates.

Newfoundland can extrude a per capita similar total for a similar length of time.

Generally, when developing an economy, you go from nothing, to resource to skills. The Maritimes need a resource to develop, and then the skilled people come to support it, and then the skilled people start supporting else where and now you have a sustainable diverse economy.

You can't just impose a skills zone on an area. Government involvement in trying to do this has failed for many many years.

[shoop]

It's not a matter of poor promotion on the part of Newfoundland.

They are developing their industry. This is an industry that takes time to build the machinery and infrastructure necessary. Especially for off-shore stuff.

Part of the deal Williams struck with Paul Martin was to gradually clawback the equalization payments. Not to continue them in perpetuity...

I can't be held responsible for Newfoundland's government's poor promotion of their provincial resources. While your on your little statistics quest, look up proven reserves in non-bitumen and synthetics. You'll find Alberta alot more on par with the rest of Canada.

Considering there is some 175bbl/d (incl. bitumen) in Alberta and the whole national only produces 2.7bbl/d, Newfoundland does have the capacity to meet 10% of Alberta's production, which per capita would create the same cash flow at equal royalty rates.

Why haven't they?

[geoffrey]

It's not a matter of poor promotion on the part of Newfoundland.

They are developing their industry. This is an industry that takes time to build the machinery and infrastructure necessary. Especially for off-shore stuff.

Part of the deal Williams struck with Paul Martin was to gradually clawback the equalization payments. Not to continue them in perpetuity...

The tarsands project sure ramped up production awful quick at the slightest sign of increased oil prices.

The delay in Newfoundland is because there is shaky investor confidence in the economy and more competition for some very limited exploration resources (understandably, would you put your limited money and equipment in Alberta or Newfoundland... a government that is pro-oil, or a government that is so-so on the issue).

I support the deal Williams and Martin made. It's a step towards self-sufficency.

[shoop]

A lot of the tarsands development got started back in the 80s. Then proceeded at a snail's pace throughout the 90s with the price of oil in the dumpers. Sorry to let facts get in the way of your *truths*.

Oh yeah, the equipment used for off-shore drilling is quite different than that used for bitument extraction. tsk, tsk those pesky facts again...

The tarsands project sure ramped up production awful quick at the slightest sign of increased oil prices.

would you put your limited money and equipment in Alberta or Newfoundland...

[Spike22]

There is no denying that Newfoundland has oil reserves off the coast. The problem has been it is extremely expensive(and risky) to get it. There have been oil rigs off the coast of Newfoundland since the early 1970's . How much revenue has anyone seen in NL - very little. The price of doing business there and the payback to the companies and investors has not exceeded their expectations (repayment) and as such little economic benefit to the average citizen has taken effect.

Alberta on the other hand has easier access to its oil wealth and the associated infrastructure to turn it into a useable consumer product. They also have been getting oil and the revenue from it for a long time now. To say they are are not directly benefiting from oil is hogwash, imagine if there was no oil, it would look a lot like Sasketchewan and the same climate where people are leaving due to limited opportunities.

Newfoundland due it's geographic location ansd small poulation also is not a great place to be in the manufacturing sector. The cost of doing business is too much: wages, shipping and having enough skilled workers are siome of the issues along with high taxes. When a Newfoundlander says their ecomomy rests on the ocean they are correct as it has been for the past 300 years. They are understandably worried about the right wing agenda and what it might mean. Will ACOA remain, will social benefits for seasonal workers be eliminated etc. I think the Canadian government can do more to promote our resources in the world and the opportunities for companies to do business there.

Why Alberta did not fully embrace the conservatives is interesting. Perhaps they just want to maintain the status quo and not rock the boat. Perhaps there will be more asked of Alberta assisting the 'have not provinces'.

[geoffrey]

A lot of the tarsands development got started back in the 80s. Then proceeded at a snail's pace throughout the 90s with the price of oil in the dumpers. Sorry to let facts get in the way of your *truths*.

Oh yeah, the equipment used for off-shore drilling is quite different than that used for bitument extraction. tsk, tsk those pesky facts again...

The tarsands project sure ramped up production awful quick at the slightest sign of increased oil prices.

would you put your limited money and equipment in Alberta or Newfoundland...

Just as the Terra Nova project sat nearly idle until the price when up.

Atlantic Canada doesn't do enough to warrent investment from outside, and doesn't have the pro-business governments needed to grow their economy.

[Spike22]

Like I stated before it is a rsiky and extremely expensive venture to extrapolate oil offshore. The governments of all parties in each province have attempted to drum up business however they are at a geographical disadvantage. They would love to have the revenue from the oil fields in Alberta there.

I wonder what would happen if the roles were reversed? Would Alberta still be a cow patty and Atlantic Canada a booming ecomomic force.

I see things changing in major centres like Halifax and St John's for those involved in the industry however the average person has seen nada.

[Black Dog]

I can't be held responsible for Newfoundland's government's poor promotion of their provincial resources. While your on your little statistics quest, look up proven reserves in non-bitumen and synthetics. You'll find Alberta alot more on par with the rest of Canada.

Considering there is some 175bbl/d (incl. bitumen) in Alberta and the whole national only produces 2.7bbl/d, Newfoundland does have the capacity to meet 10% of Alberta's production, which per capita would create the same cash flow at equal royalty rates.

Why haven't they?

Unlike Alberta, most of Newfoundland' major oil reserves are relatively new off shore discoveries. Newfoundland's share of energy GDP rose from just 5 per cent to 21.5 per cent in less tahn 10 years. But the energy industry is a newcoemr there compared to Alberta.

Generally, when developing an economy, you go from nothing, to resource to skills. The Maritimes need a resource to develop, and then the skilled people come to support it, and then the skilled people start supporting else where and now you have a sustainable diverse economy.

This is a laugher. Like Alberta is a position to lecture about "diverse economies".

[I Miss Trudeau]

The Alberta Heritage Trust Fund currently sits at about $12.6 Billion dollars.

Would that be *enough* money put aside for a rainy day? btw, the Province tops it up every year so it keeps pace with inflation...

Tops it up to keep pace with inflation? Who the hell is managing the fund? That fund should be growing on its own, even when adjusted for inflation. If Klein is topping it up to keep pace with inflation, he needs to find a new fund manager.

More likely, Klein is pulling out all of the interest then putting just enough back in so that it doesn't shrink when adjusted for inflation. The price of our non-renewable resource is currently very high, and to celebrate and plan for the future, we're ensuring that the trust doesn't shrink?

Have another cold one, Ralphie.

[shoop]

Wow,

What a partisan joke you are. No ability to look at anything an *evil* party has done in a good light.

Exactly how much should the fund be growing by above and beyond inflation?

Why didn't you look at the link with all the financial info on the Fund before going off on your tirade?

Nice personal attack on Premier Klein. How about talking about the snobby former PM you *miss* with his psychotic ex-wife? Hmmmm, personal attacks aren't that cool are they?

Tops it up to keep pace with inflation? Who the hell is managing the fund? That fund should be growing on its own, even when adjusted for inflation. If Klein is topping it up to keep pace with inflation, he needs to find a new fund manager.

More likely, Klein is pulling out all of the interest then putting just enough back in so that it doesn't shrink when adjusted for inflation. The price of our non-renewable resource is currently very high, and to celebrate and plan for the future, we're ensuring that the trust doesn't shrink?

Have another cold one, Ralphie.

[I Miss Trudeau]

Wow,

What a partisan joke you are. No ability to look at anything an *evil* party has done in a good light.

I was talking about the heritage trust fund. Even if Klein has single handedly cured cancer, how would that be relevant to the heritage trust fund? Klein has clearly mismanaged that fund. The fact that it doesn't seem to be growing, despite near record prices on oil, kind of puts the lie to the name of the fund, I'd say. Lets just call it what it is: a useless fund whose name lets people feel good about passing on a portion of our oil riches to future generations, when we're reall doing nothing of the sort.

Exactly how much should the fund be growing by above and beyond inflation?

The rate of inflation for last year was between 2 and 3%. One would hope that whoever is managing the fund could get a return of greater than 3% on that investment. If not, they need to be fired.

Nice personal attack on Premier Klein. How about talking about the snobby former PM you *miss* with his psychotic ex-wife? Hmmmm, personal attacks aren't that cool are they?

My dad can beat up your dad.

[shoop]

Typical of the laziness of the Liberals. (The laziness that cause you to lose this election )

All of your facts and assumptions are disproven yet you are too arrogant to read the link attached.

For 2005-06 the fund is going to return about 8 1/2%. Guess that beats your 2 to 3 % hey? So the fund managers are allowe dot keep their jobs?

Of the $1.1 Billion that 8 1/2% represents about $800 Million will go into general revenues and $300 Million will go into *topping up* the fund.

Do explain how a fund that will be close to 13 billion dollars by the end of fiscal 2005-06 isn't passing a portion of our oil riches to future generations.

Gee those pesky facts....

Klein has clearly mismanaged that fund. The fact that it doesn't seem to be growing, despite near record prices on oil, kind of puts the lie to the name of the fund, I'd say. Lets just call it what it is: a useless fund whose name lets people feel good about passing on a portion of our oil riches to future generations, when we're reall doing nothing of the sort.

The rate of inflation for last year was between 2 and 3%. One would hope that whoever is managing the fund could get a return of greater than 3% on that investment. If not, they need to be fired.

[Black Dog]

Typical of the laziness of the Liberals. (The laziness that cause you to lose this election )

All of your facts and assumptions are disproven yet you are too arrogant to read the link attached.

For 2005-06 the fund is going to return about 8 1/2%. Guess that beats your 2 to 3 % hey? So the fund managers are allowe dot keep their jobs?

Of the $1.1 Billion that 8 1/2% represents about $800 Million will go into general revenues and $300 Million will go into *topping up* the fund.

Um...my math isn't so shit hot, but isn't $300 million roughly 3 per cent of $1 billion? If so, then IMT is correct: the fund is "growing" just above the pace of inflation because the bulk of its return is being funnelled into general revenues.

Do explain how a fund that will be close to 13 billion dollars by the end of fiscal 2005-06 isn't passing a portion of our oil riches to future generations.

Because they keep pilfering the frigging thing to top up the general revenues?