Pedophiles waiting in line....

[tml12]

"Priests have very easy access to many children and adolescents of both sexes as well as adults, of course."

That is probably true, but I wouldn't compare a priest to a gay CEO and again I am unsure how this would mean that gay individuals take more pleasure in seducing children.

[Argus]

However. Outside of families, the overwhelming number of child sexual abuse appears to be men molesting boys

A dubious assertion (which, incidentally, doesn't pass the math if it's done on the statistics I've provided earlier). I suggest you either provide a link, or apologise

I'm not going to spend all afternoon doing research on the obvious. However, the very first page I came to contained the following statement.

Most children are abused by someone they know and trust, although boys are more likely than girls to be abused outside of the family

Advocates for Youth

dishonest

Dishonesty is tossing out phoney statistics in order to "prove" your effort to tar gays as pedophiles.

Liar. Name one false statistic I have posted.

Just do the math with the VAASA statistics. What you're arguing is mathematically impossible.

And your statements about the Catholic situation have already been blown out of the water, too. Oh well.

Hardly. The statistics from the Catholic League are very, very clear.

Almost all the priests who abuse children are homosexuals. Dr. Thomas Plante, a psychologist at Santa Clara University, found that “80 to 90% of all priests who in fact abuse minors have sexually engaged with adolescent boys, not prepubescent children. Thus, the teenager is more at risk than the young altar boy or girls of any age.”[viii]

The situation in Boston, the epicenter of the scandal, is even worse. According to the Boston Globe, “Of the clergy sex abuse cases referred to prosecutors in Eastern Massachusetts, more than 90 percent involve male victims. And the most prominent Boston lawyers for alleged victims of clergy sexual abuse have said that about 95 percent of their clients are male.”[ix]

In a database analysis of reports on more than 1,200 alleged victims of priests identified by USA Today, 85 percent were males.[x] In another study by USA Today, it was determined that of the 234 priests who have been accused of sexual abuse of a minor while serving in the nation’s 10 largest dioceses and archdioceses, 91 percent of their victims were males.[xi]

[Argus]

"Priests have very easy access to many children and adolescents of both sexes as well as adults, of course."

That is probably true, but I wouldn't compare a priest to a gay CEO and again I am unsure how this would mean that gay individuals take more pleasure in seducing children.

I don't think you're using the right terms. My suggestion is that within the very youth-oriented sexual culture of homosexual men the sexual use of young boys is more likely to arise than is the abuse of girls among heterosexual men. There is, as well, the physical dimension. Most men are not instinctively attracted to flat-chested girls who do not have womens curves. The same instinctive lack of interest can't be claimed about homosexual men and boys.

[Hicksey]

Only one of those terms, "pedophile," do I find offensive. We know about the issues with Catholic priests in this country, but there are also many issues where Catholic priests molested "altar girls."

Very few, actually.

Why is the term pedophile offensive? I think its appropriate to how offensive their conduct is. Adults male/female offending against male/female children or any permutation thereof is much more offensive than labelling them as a pedophile.

[Argus]

Only one of those terms, "pedophile," do I find offensive. We know about the issues with Catholic priests in this country, but there are also many issues where Catholic priests molested "altar girls."

Very few, actually.

Why is the term pedophile offensive? I think its appropriate to how offensive their conduct is. Adults male/female offending against male/female children or any permutation thereof is much more offensive than labelling them as a pedophile.

I don't know about offensive, but the term is medical, clinical, and is used to define people with a psychological problem, a diagonised condition, if you will, whereby they are only attracted to very young children. Such a person is not attracted to older children, ie, post adolescents. Most of the cases we're discussing, for example, with the Catholic church, do not involve five year olds, but fifteen year olds. Someone who lusts after a fifteen year old is not a paedophile.

[tml12]

Only one of those terms, "pedophile," do I find offensive. We know about the issues with Catholic priests in this country, but there are also many issues where Catholic priests molested "altar girls."

Very few, actually.

Why is the term pedophile offensive? I think its appropriate to how offensive their conduct is. Adults male/female offending against male/female children or any permutation thereof is much more offensive than labelling them as a pedophile.

I meant I found their conduct disgusting, not that I am offended by the etymology of the word.

[betsy]

Not so very long ago NAMBLA got to march in all the gay pride parades. I remember the year they finally were refused permission to march in New York by the organizers.

I suppose if 20 years ago isn't "not so very long ago."

Incidentally, the NYC police department, a number of investment banks, and Irish groups march in the NY Pride Parade too.

So homosexuality is clearly an effort to advance police who are Irish investment bankers too. The connection is undeniable!

What if the problem in the Catholic Church is gay priests? Because we've seen some evidence this is, in fact, the case

That's not what the victims groups say. In fact, a majority of the victims of abuse were little girls or women at the time, and victims groups have been quite upset that the Church and right wingers like yourself have ignored and downplayed their suffering in order to advance an anti-gay agenda.

See for yourself:

http://www.snapnetwork.org/female_victims/..._as_victims.htm

Already shaken by a yearlong sex abuse scandal involving priests and minors, the Roman Catholic Church has yet to face another critical challenge - how to help thousands of nuns who say they have been sexually victimized.

A national survey, completed in 1996 but intentionally never publicized, estimates that a "minimum" of 34,000 Catholic nuns, or about 40 percent of all nuns in the United States, have suffered some form of sexual trauma.

Some of that sexual abuse, exploitation or harassment has come at the hands of priests and other nuns in the church, the report said.

http://www.snapnetwork.org/female_victims/...ell_stories.htm

Over a half-dozen abuse survivors, mostly women, sat on the altar of North

Parish Church and told members of the Voice of the Faithful, a lay reformist group, about experiences that came close to ruining many of their lives.

One woman said she had not stepped into a church since her rape by a priest at age 11; another woman spoke of girlhood abuse by a priest who dined with the family; and another woman described how the Catholic Church paid $250,000 to keep her quiet.

"I didn't think that I was ready or brave enough to speak to a group like this but then we started hearing about people feeling this is a homosexual issue," said Christine Hickey, a Somerville resident. "I think we need women to speak out because the Vatican says it is a gay issue."

But no one is saying that no sexual molestations were committed by heterosexual priests. There were pedophiles who molested girls too. But the study by the Church points to the overwhelming percentage of abuse on boys, perpetrated by priests....not nuns.

[betsy]

This topic had drawn heavy criticism for several posters in this forum had questioned how come NAMBLA is being associated with the Gay Rights Movement.

The answer is quite simple. NAMBLA and ILGA had a shared a page in history not that too long ago. A history that resulted in a big controversy that saw then US President Clinton issuing a threat to revoke ILGA’s consultative status in the UN unless ILGA rejected the membership of NAMBLA and other pedophile groups.

It is almost impossible for ILGA to ward off any opposition bringing up NAMBLA. It may be just poor judgement on ILGA’s part to have allowed such a group to join its rank….but it is damaging nevertheless for these reasons:

NAMBLA’s platform echoes that of ILGA.

“2) The North American Man/Boy Love Association calls for the abolition of age-of-consent and all other laws which prevent men and boys from freely enjoying their bodies. (2) We call for the release of all men and boys imprisoned by such laws." [8] This policy was still in NAMBLA's "official position papers" in 1996.

ILGA had passed a resolution in 1985 which stated that "young people have the right to sexual and social self-determination and that age of consent laws often operate to oppress and not to protect."

ILGA may have complied and rejected NAMBLA,

“Gregory King of the Human Rights Campaign later said that "NAMBLA is not a gay organization ... They are not part of our community and we thoroughly reject their efforts to insinuate that pedophilia is an issue related to gay and lesbian civil rights."

However, that rejecting statement was challenged by NAMBLA.

“NAMBLA responded by claiming that "man/boy love is by definition homosexual," that "man/boy lovers are part of the gay movement and central to gay history and culture," and that "homosexuals denying that it is 'not gay' to be attracted to adolescent boys are just as ludicrous as heterosexuals saying it's 'not heterosexual' to be attracted to adolescent girls."[22

To this date the Gay Rights Movement disavows any connections with NAMBLA, just as they did in that past:

“Today almost all gay rights groups disavow any ties to NAMBLA, voice disapproval of its objectives, and attempt to prevent NAMBLA from having a role in gay and lesbian rights events.”

However, the shadow of doubt and suspicion that continues to follow the Gay Rights Movement was, ironically, made by the statement of its lobbyist:

“One such statement was made by gay rights lobbyist Steve Endean. Endean, who opposed NAMBLA, said: "What NAMBLA is doing is tearing apart the movement. If you attach it [the man/boy love issue] to gay rights, gay rights will never happen." Gay author and activist Edmund White made a similar statement in his book States of Desire: "That's the politics of self-indulgence. Our movement cannot survive the man-boy issue. It's not a question of who's right, it's a matter of political naivete."

That statement points to a political move as the reason behind the rejection of NAMBLA.

This is what the Gay Rights Movement has to overcome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMBLA#The_ILGA_controversy

[A Hermit]

I'm not going to spend all afternoon doing research on the obvious.

Well, that tells us something about your opinions, doesn't it? You're prepared to go out in public smearing every homosexual with theis pedophilia charge, but you're not prepared to take the time to get the facts?

Most children are abused by someone they know and trust, although boys are more likely than girls to be abused outside of the family

And most children are abused within, not outside, the family and most of them are girls. Look it up, if you can spare a few moments for the truth...

[A Hermit]

Betsy, tell me why my uncle, who is gay, should be treated like a pedophile.

You don't knw him, you've never met him, you've never spent time with him like I have (all my life, as a child, a teenager and an adult). I know him to be an honourable, decent and courageous man; an example I have tried to follow in many ways.

But to you he's just a potential pedophile.

This is what bigotry looks like. You create this false image of people, and in the process smear the innocent. What you do is no different from the kind of racial stereotyping we used to see (still see, in some cases).

Associating NAMBLA with homosexuals in general is like associating all Christians with the KKK. It's dishonest, hypocritical and destructive.

[betsy]

Betsy, tell me why my uncle, who is gay, should be treated like a pedophile.

You don't knw him, you've never met him, you've never spent time with him like I have (all my life, as a child, a teenager and an adult). I know him to be an honourable, decent and courageous man; an example I have tried to follow in many ways.

But to you he's just a potential pedophile.

This is what bigotry looks like. You create this false image of people, and in the process smear the innocent. What you do is no different from the kind of racial stereotyping we used to see (still see, in some cases).

Associating NAMBLA with homosexuals in general is like associating all Christians with the KKK. It's dishonest, hypocritical and destructive.

I don't think you've followed the thread from the beginning. I've repeated several times that NOT ALL GAYS are pedophiles. I've even VOLUNTEERED THE INFORMATION (although I did not have to)...that majority of the gay members did NOT know about NAMBLA and other pedophile groups being members of ILGA.

I repeat: we are only prolonging arguing about NAMBLA and ILGA because some people keep wanting to deny that an association had exist between the two. The more you deny it, the more I am compelled to prove it! Because by denying it, you are saying history is wrong....and that I am only making it up!

Like I said, no matter how hard you guys try to sweep NAMBLA under the rug....people like me who have doubts and questions will always bring it up! It's inevitable!

Because NAMBLA is strongly part of the problem why people question ILGA's motive!

Do not hide behind the word "bigotry." I consider myself as close to the center Right. I believe that Gays ought to have protection and the same legal benefits that we all enjoy! Automatically calling anyone who has a legitimate concern or a question a bigot only incite! And infuriate! You're like children who runs tattling to the teacher at the slightest percieved hint of slight!

Why do you think your group is the only one that deserves to be heard?

This thread is about PEDOPHILES getting through the door....thanks to the Gay Rights Movement. Pedophiles are trying to get a piggy-back ride through the Gay Rights Movement.

Face it. ILGA's association with NAMBLA had tarnished the Gay Rights Movement in a very bad way. It did not help matters at all when NAMBLA insists that Man-Boy love is part of gay culture!

The ghost of NAMBLA will always dog the movement....that's why I said, that is what the movement has to overcome!

You know the problem you're facing. Why don't you guys figure out a way to fix that?

Now, let's get constructive.

[betsy]

It's dishonest, hypocritical and destructive.

Do you agree NAMBLA was a member of ILGA?

Do you agree ILGA had a consultative status in the UN?

Do you agree ILGA's consultative status was threatened by CLINTON?

Do you admit that EGALE is lobbying to have the age of consent lowered?

Do you agree that NAMBLA's damning statement and insistence that Man-Boy love is part of the gay culture, that it took Clinton's threat for ILGA to respond that points to a political move as the real reason behind ILGA's disavowing NAMBLA, compounded by the research findings in the Church scandal are reasons why people are doubtful and suspicious?

I am not being dishonest with my posts. Nor am I being hypocritical.

EGALE had been making swift radical changes in Canada that of course leaves people reeling, especially when one of those changes, which is highly important and meaningful to a group, had not gone through the normal process in Parliament.

And it is destructive to try to stifle one's voice of concern or legitimate questions by automatically calling them bigots. It only helps widen the gap.

[betsy]

Btw, I noticed on EGALE's site that they are also standing for Bisexuals.

Does this mean that Marriage will mean a union between three or more of whatever gender?

Does this mean that EGALE will fight for this union's rights to adopt children to be raised in this type of family environment?

ILGA (Europe Chapter) is standing for Sado-Masochists.

Does this mean that eventually, they will have the same right to marry and adopt children to be raised in that kind of environment?

What next????

I mean....pedophiles can't be that far behind in the line-up, can it?

[Argus]

I'm not going to spend all afternoon doing research on the obvious.

Well, that tells us something about your opinions, doesn't it? You're prepared to go out in public smearing every homosexual with theis pedophilia charge, but you're not prepared to take the time to get the facts?

Was I smearing homosexuals? What I said, which was obvious from the media, was that outside the family, the majority of molesters are men molesting boys, not girls. And in my book, that makes them homosexuals. Virtually every time we hear about a predatory child molester, be it a hockey coach, a scout leader, or a teacher, it turns out to be a guy molesting boys.

Most children are abused by someone they know and trust, although boys are more likely than girls to be abused outside of the family

And most children are abused within, not outside, the family and most of them are girls. Look it up, if you can spare a few moments for the truth...

I already said as much. Girls are abused more than boys because most molestation takes place within the faimily unit. I dislike repeating myself. Read the thread before posting again.

[Riverwind]

And in my book, that makes them homosexuals. Virtually every time we hear about a predatory child molester, be it a hockey coach, a scout leader, or a teacher, it turns out to be a guy molesting boys.

I don't have a link at this time but I have read in different places that pedophiles that molest boys are usually heterosexual with other adults - their interest is limited in males is limited to young boys. I guess you can call them bisexual but I don't see the point: pedophilia is abohorent and the sexual orientations of the molestor is not a relevant fact.

[betsy]

[ pedophilia is abohorent and the sexual orientations of the molestor is not a relevant fact.

Except on this topic, which unfortunately touched on NAMBLA, it is a relevant fact.

[betsy]

The following was taken from EGALE's website.

"The Human Rights of Trans People

CALL FOR STORIES

Not all Canadians now have clear and visible human rights protection. Trans-identified people are still invisible in human rights legislation everywhere in Canada except the Northwest Territories.

Trans people do have protection under the grounds of ‘sex’ and ‘disability,’ but the protection is unclear and invisible. Trans people shouldn’t have to fit themselves into grounds designed for other groups. It’s time for governments across Canada to treat trans people with the same dignity and respect as other minorities, starting with the federal government and its Canadian Human Rights Act (CHRA).

Egale has launched its Trans Protection Campaign to work for passage of legislation to amend the CHRA to explicitly include trans people. This will send a message to Canadians that trans people are worthy of equal consideration and respect, and will make clear to everyone that we are indeed protected.

Egale is raising awareness of this issue with Members of Parliament (MPs), as we expect a new private members bill to be introduced in this session of Parliament. There is much work to be done and WE NEED YOUR HELP!!

We have the legal, moral and political arguments we need to convince MPs to protect trans people. But we need to put a human face on this issue. That’s why we need your stories.

We want to hear about your life. We need to show there’s a real need for explicit protection against discrimination. That means we need not only need stories about things like losing a job or an apartment, but also stories to highlight the sense of exclusion or lack of consideration when you look at the law and don’t see yourself reflected in it. As one trans person told us, “I simply cannot point to a public recognition and acceptance of my life and value as a person.”

Telling your story is easy. All you have to do is provide answers to the questions below or write it up freeform, and send it to Egale at [email protected]."

-----------------------------------------------

Part of their questionaire:

2. Trans Identity. I identify as (check all that apply):

transsexual

transgender

intersex

gender queer

cross-dresser

man

woman

other (please specify) ________________

Can someone please explain the difference between the different types of Trans? I never knew there's so many...all I know is transvestite...and it's not even on the list!

I'm just seriously curious.

[betsy]

ILGA (Europe Chapter) is standing for Sado-Masochists.

Corrections on this one. I was reading an old ILGA article. Current ILGA Europe does not seem to include this group.

[Argus]

And in my book, that makes them homosexuals. Virtually every time we hear about a predatory child molester, be it a hockey coach, a scout leader, or a teacher, it turns out to be a guy molesting boys.

I don't have a link at this time but I have read in different places that pedophiles that molest boys are usually heterosexual with other adults - their interest is limited in males is limited to young boys. I guess you can call them bisexual but I don't see the point: pedophilia is abohorent and the sexual orientations of the molestor is not a relevant fact.

We're not talking about paedophiles, or at least, not solely paedophiles. As I said earlier, paedophiles generally go for kids between 2-10. They have little or no interest in adolescents.

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering except that the American guy's snottiness decided me to post a few comments, but the guys who "prey" on young people are almost all aiming for boys. Most of the cases we're seeing in the news are of openly gay men trying to become coaches, scout leaders, teachers - faith leaders -, and move themselves into similar positions where they can get at young boys in their very early teens. These are not paedophiles, who at least can be said to be suffering from a clinically diagnosed mental illness. They are simply sexual predators. Homosexual gay predators. This behavour pattern rarely seems to emerge among heterosexuals. And given the fact that homosexuals make up a tiny fraction of the population I have to wonder at why they appear to make up the great majority of sexual predators who hunt children.

It's a fact that no one talks about this (which is another reason I find it worth discussing), that no one is doing any kind of studies into these kinds of things for fear of causing offense, and yet, it appears to me to be a manifestation of gay sexual culture. Gay (male) culture idealizes very young-seeming men, very slim, very trim, hairless, smooth, pretty... getting the idea? It's little wonder they go after very young boys at the rate they do. And while gay men may dissaprove of actual paedophilia (I can't say one way or the other) I don't see any generalized dissaproval of sex with minor teenagers.

[Riverwind]

They are simply sexual predators. Homosexual gay predators. This behavior pattern rarely seems to emerge among heterosexuals. And given the fact that homosexuals make up a tiny fraction of the population I have to wonder at why they appear to make up the great majority of sexual predators who hunt children.

I agree with the distinction you are making between paedophiles and sexual predators that take advantage of vulnerable teens. However, I think you have to include the legions of 'johns' that target teenage prostitutes in that group. I don't think you can say that a teenage girl prostitute is any less a victim. I am also fairly certain that the number of heterosexual johns is larger than the number of homosexual predators that you describe.

[geoffrey]

They are simply sexual predators. Homosexual gay predators. This behavior pattern rarely seems to emerge among heterosexuals. And given the fact that homosexuals make up a tiny fraction of the population I have to wonder at why they appear to make up the great majority of sexual predators who hunt children.

I agree with the distinction you are making between paedophiles and sexual predators that take advantage of vulnerable teens. However, I think you have to include the legions of 'johns' that target teenage prostitutes in that group. I don't think you can say that a teenage girl prostitute is any less a victim. I am also fairly certain that the number of heterosexual johns is larger than the number of homosexual predators that you describe.

In relation to their respective compositions in society, I'd say probably not.

I do, however, think that some people are taking this down the extreme and encouraging persecution of gay people based on the fact that a higher percentage of them commit sex crimes. Thats not fair. I'll give you another example. I don't think we should immediately lock up all indians, even though they have a considerably higher chance of committing a crime than other groups.

The facts do seem to present themselves, and I'd be willing to agree that homosexuals make up a disproportionally higher amount of sex offenders. However, we can't base any 'programs' or justice on this, as we are a long way from claiming that all homosexuals would have this interest, as I'm sure most do not.

[betsy]

They are simply sexual predators. Homosexual gay predators. This behavior pattern rarely seems to emerge among heterosexuals. And given the fact that homosexuals make up a tiny fraction of the population I have to wonder at why they appear to make up the great majority of sexual predators who hunt children.

I agree with the distinction you are making between paedophiles and sexual predators that take advantage of vulnerable teens. However, I think you have to include the legions of 'johns' that target teenage prostitutes in that group. I don't think you can say that a teenage girl prostitute is any less a victim. I am also fairly certain that the number of heterosexual johns is larger than the number of homosexual predators that you describe.

In relation to their respective compositions in society, I'd say probably not.

I do, however, think that some people are taking this down the extreme and encouraging persecution of gay people based on the fact that a higher percentage of them commit sex crimes. Thats not fair. I'll give you another example. I don't think we should immediately lock up all indians, even though they have a considerably higher chance of committing a crime than other groups.

The facts do seem to present themselves, and I'd be willing to agree that homosexuals make up a disproportionally higher amount of sex offenders. However, we can't base any 'programs' or justice on this, as we are a long way from claiming that all homosexuals would have this interest, as I'm sure most do not.

I can see this being exploited by the extremist right-wing fanatics.

However, I hope we are not confusing legitimate questions of concern, and suspicions and doubts borne out of these facts/circumstances:

1. ILGA's previous history with NAMBLA and what seems to be the fact that ILGA's disassociation from NAMBLA was more out of saving its own image, thus just a political strategy.

2. NAMBLA's assertion that they are a part of the gay community, and that Man-Boy love is actually a part of the gay culture.

3. ILGA seems to echo NAMBLA's platform regarding age of consent, and its goal to lower the age of consent.

4. EGALE is making swift radical changes in Canada, taking advantage of a flip-flopping Liberal government, who in a rush to promote itself as the "protector of human rights", had rushed into a decision without closely and extensively analyzing the ramification this ruling may have. We already see some signs of "testing" from other groups, and the ink isn't even dry yet on this ruling, so to speak.

As I said over and over again, the Gay Rights Movement will always be dogged by the spectre of NAMBLA. There is suspicion among us.....and that is what the movement has to try to eliminate.

Like an alcoholic, the Movement has come to admit that yes, they do have a problem, before they can begin to correct that problem.

The movement cannot eliminate the cloud of suspicions by crying "FOUL!" and "Bigots!" everytime this concern is brought up....and it will always crop up. They cannot slap the gag law everytime someone questions the motive based on a history of not too long ago. THAT results in more negativity...and only strengthens the suspicions.

Gaps are bridged through dialogue. Two-way street dialogue.

[betsy]

The facts do seem to present themselves, and I'd be willing to agree that homosexuals make up a disproportionally higher amount of sex offenders. However, we can't base any 'programs' or justice on this, as we are a long way from claiming that all homosexuals would have this interest, as I'm sure most do not.

I agree with you on this.

Majority of gay members did not know anything about NAMBLA and the other pedophile groups that joined the Movement. They were unaware that their officers had made a pact with the devil on that one.

I am also sure that if you poll the gay community right now, majority of them would rather just want to be left in peace, not wishing to get dragged along by a movement that probably do not actually represent them in some of its most major fight for what they perceive as "rights."

A small group of homosexuals had taken out a whole page ad supporting the preservation of the traditional meaning of marriage.

A lot of homosexuals must be like me. I cannot identify with the radical Feminist Movement that purports to speak for me. They do not represent me.

The gay community must speak out! Not as one through the lobbying EGALE. But as true individuals.

[Black Dog]

Gay (male) culture idealizes very young-seeming men, very slim, very trim, hairless, smooth, pretty... getting the idea?

Again, completely unlike "heterosexual" culture's obessession with, uh, youth, slimness etc...

And if, as you say, "most adult men might look at a particularly pretty 16 year old in a revealing outfit, but wouldn't seriously consider doing anything with one, much less a fourteen year old, legal or not," then why your outrage over the age of consent issue? Teenage girls are safe as houses. Except for the fact that more than a quarter of female rape victims are between 12 and 17.

Betsy:

As I said over and over again, the Gay Rights Movement will always be dogged by the spectre of NAMBLA. There is suspicion among us.....and that is what the movement has to try to eliminate.

As has been said over and over, there is no monolithic gay rights "Movement". All you are doing here is what you've been accussed of doing all along: create the connection between the broad and diverese aims of the gay community (such as equality, including the equalization of age of consent laws) with a small, fringe group that may or may not even exist anymore. So stow the sanctimonious claptrap and false piety. No one is buying what you're selling.

[Hicksey]

Gay (male) culture idealizes very young-seeming men, very slim, very trim, hairless, smooth, pretty... getting the idea?

Again, completely unlike "heterosexual" culture's obessession with, uh, youth, slimness etc...

And if, as you say, "most adult men might look at a particularly pretty 16 year old in a revealing outfit, but wouldn't seriously consider doing anything with one, much less a fourteen year old, legal or not," then why your outrage over the age of consent issue? Teenage girls are safe as houses. Except for the fact that more than a quarter of female rape victims are between 12 and 17.

Betsy:

As I said over and over again, the Gay Rights Movement will always be dogged by the spectre of NAMBLA. There is suspicion among us.....and that is what the movement has to try to eliminate.

As has been said over and over, there is no monolithic gay rights "Movement". All you are doing here is what you've been accussed of doing all along: create the connection between the broad and diverese aims of the gay community (such as equality, including the equalization of age of consent laws) with a small, fringe group that may or may not even exist anymore. So stow the sanctimonious claptrap and false piety. No one is buying what you're selling.

BlackDog,

You're right here, on both accounts.

First, young women are targetted as often as young men. The targetting of young men just gets more media attention these days. Both young men and women need more protection from such people.

And the only connection between the various GRM organizations and pedophilic organizations such as NAMBLA is a tenuous one at best. It is based upon NAMBLA believing that, the desire of young children is a sexual preference the same as being gay or heterosexual, and that on that basis laws abrdging it are unconstitutional and they should be able to engage in a relationship with and marry without persecution. It was NAMBLA and anti-GRM groups that brought gays into this discussion.

People can have all the suspicions they want about whether or not I am right about this. But from personal experience, the average gay person lives by the same morals that the rest of us do, with one major exception that all of us can guess. They think that pedophiles are as wrong as the rest of us. The position that they're sympathetic to NAMBLA's cause is just baseless.