Do facts matter anymore?

[hellnback]

Let's forget the trash talk and check the facts.

There have been many allegations, insinuations, and investigations,

but no criminal charges or real evidence of a Liberal party "crime".

Liberals are no more corrupt than any other political group. They

have all had their share of scandals, and the current hype is far

too reminiscent of the 'Bush hawks' in their attacks on Bill Clinton.

The Americans were fooled by that and are now paying a severe price

(as is the world). Harper is merely 'Bush north'.

Historical Fact: The Liberals have given us the Canadian social safety

net, mother's allowance, old age pensions, and instituted the universal

health plan proposed by Tommy Douglas. They have also given us the Canada

pension plan, Canada student loans, and the Canada assistance plan which

provides funding for provincial welfare.

Under Trudeau they gave us 'multiculturalism' to allow immigrants to

retain their culture, patriation of the Canadian constitution, and the

Canadian Charter of Rights.

They have given us eight straight years of surplus, have further plans to

build a stronger and better Canada, and while retaining a friendship with

the American people, have kept us from being sucked into U.S. 'oil wars'.

It's thanks to Liberals that we have our own flag.

The Conservatives destroyed our best chance to become world leaders in

aviation by scrapping the Avroe Arrow and then buying obsolete and

defective Bomarc missiles from the U.S., which caused many of our best

scientists and engineers to migrate southward.

Under Mulroney they gave us the worst recession since WWII, unemployment

at the highest levels since the 1929 Depression, chronically high

deficits, and a new tax, the GST.

They also gave us the so-called 'Free Trade Act' over the objections of

the Liberals and the majority of Canadians, for which we are still

suffering.

The best thing that Canadian voters have ever done was to send the party

into oblivion. Unfortunately, it's now rearing it's head again.

The NDP is a coalition of socialism and unionism (CCF and CLC), which is

great, ... if you happen to be in a union. They would, however, make an

excellent opposition party for either Liberal or Conservative minority

governments. Tommy Douglas (healthcare) was their brightest talent.

The Green party is in it's infancy and is, sadly, limited in it's power

to effect anything of substance. They are valid for future consideration.

To not learn from history is possibly the most unforgiveable sin of all.

[Cameron]

Thanks for the pro Liberal post.

NAFTA gave us some of the best economic times that we experienced in history. There was an option to re-negotiate the agreement but the Liberals made small changes and re-signed.

The GST dug us out of our deficit hole and replaced the MST that was built into the price of goods and was a headache for accountants.

Some of the policies that he created are still in use today.

He won two majority governments.

[Hydraboss]

hellnback, welcome to the board.

Game on.

First off, check your facts. The Liberal party has admitted to criminal activity, and has vowed to pay back stolen money. They are certainly not the only party to commit this type of crime, but they're the ones caught most recently.

2, the CPP is about as effective as a bladeless knife without a handle. Organized, legalized theft. Nothing more.

3, Trudeau split this country. He should have been convicted as a dangerous offender. His wonderful little ideas caused there to be Canada East and Canada West.

4, patriation of the Charter? Careful on this board, there are too many people (admittedly smarter than I) that would argue that point alone for hours.

5, eight surpluses are easy to accomplish. It simply involves moving numbers when convenient. Understate your revenue, and BOOM, you have a surplus. Steal from the EI fund much?

6, check your dates on the recession. Mulrooooooney was an ass, but it wasn't all his doing. I can say that and I hated the man.

7, the GST. The GST that Johnny Crouton promised to get rid of if elected. And here we are 12 years later. Still got the GST.

8, do you mean the FTA that the Liberals have had 12 years to do away with (tough, admittedly)?

9, the NDP. No comment. They are more than capable of defending themselves. Rovik???

Again, welcome to the board.

[Boru]

Let's forget the trash talk and check the facts.

There have been many allegations, insinuations, and investigations,

but no criminal charges or real evidence of a Liberal party "crime".

Liberals are no more corrupt than any other political group. They

have all had their share of scandals, and the current hype is far

too reminiscent of the 'Bush hawks' in their attacks on Bill Clinton.

The Americans were fooled by that and are now paying a severe price

(as is the world). Harper is merely 'Bush north'.

Historical Fact: The Liberals have given us the Canadian social safety

net, mother's allowance, old age pensions, and instituted the universal

health plan proposed by Tommy Douglas. They have also given us the Canada

pension plan, Canada student loans, and the Canada assistance plan which

provides funding for provincial welfare.

Under Trudeau they gave us 'multiculturalism' to allow immigrants to

retain their culture, patriation of the Canadian constitution, and the

Canadian Charter of Rights.

They have given us eight straight years of surplus, have further plans to

build a stronger and better Canada, and while retaining a friendship with

the American people, have kept us from being sucked into U.S. 'oil wars'.

It's thanks to Liberals that we have our own flag.

The Conservatives destroyed our best chance to become world leaders in

aviation by scrapping the Avroe Arrow and then buying obsolete and

defective Bomarc missiles from the U.S., which caused many of our best

scientists and engineers to migrate southward.

Under Mulroney they gave us the worst recession since WWII, unemployment

at the highest levels since the 1929 Depression, chronically high

deficits, and a new tax, the GST.

They also gave us the so-called 'Free Trade Act' over the objections of

the Liberals and the majority of Canadians, for which we are still

suffering.

The best thing that Canadian voters have ever done was to send the party

into oblivion. Unfortunately, it's now rearing it's head again.

The NDP is a coalition of socialism and unionism (CCF and CLC), which is

great, ... if you happen to be in a union. They would, however, make an

excellent opposition party for either Liberal or Conservative minority

governments. Tommy Douglas (healthcare) was their brightest talent.

The Green party is in it's infancy and is, sadly, limited in it's power

to effect anything of substance. They are valid for future consideration.

To not learn from history is possibly the most unforgiveable sin of all.

Some of what you say is misleading. The one that jumps out at me is the health care The Liberals didn't give us universal health care. The public system we benefit from today came as a result of a Liberal minority government working in coalition with the NDP.

But this is besides the point. It's unfair to attribute today's leaders with past party mistakes, as well as triumphs. You selectively mention what parties have done to champion the Liberal cause.

The Liberals have given us 8 straight years of surplus.

How did they do that? Under martin's direction, they slashed funding across the board more than any Conservative PM ever has...

You want to reach back into history? Well, which party was it decided to draft troops for World War 2? ( This being after they promised not to..._

I'm not a Conservative supporter, but Martin has had his chance. The fact that he survived to take office after the scandal initially erupted was a godsend to the Liberals, and they blew it. What did they do in that time? They knew that they had an election coming. Martin knew he had to leave an impression, make an impact...

In my opinion, many people aren't voting for Conservatiove, but against Martin. If the party had a leader with his integrity intact, then he would have had no trouble taking over the reigns of Chretiens majority.

If Harper gets his chance now, which is not a certainty, then so be it.

[Cameron]

check your dates on the recession. Mulrooooooney was an ass, but it wasn't all his doing. I can say that and I hated the man.

Why did you hate him?

His Deputy Prime Minister Don Mazankowski said that his greatest accomplishment will be seen as, "Dragging Canada kicking and screaming into the 21st century."

-From Wikipedia

[Boru]

hellnback, welcome to the board.

...

3, Trudeau split this country. He should have been convicted as a dangerous offender. His wonderful little ideas caused there to be Canada East and Canada West...

This post is just pure insanity. Trudeau won his governemnts for a reason. He was supported by the majority of Canadians for a reason. There is nothing about this that equates to "dangerous offender"

A completely unintelligent , unfair, and ridiculous statement.

[geoffrey]

hellnback, welcome to the board.

...

3, Trudeau split this country. He should have been convicted as a dangerous offender. His wonderful little ideas caused there to be Canada East and Canada West...

This post is just pure insanity. Trudeau won his governemnts for a reason. He was supported by the majority of Canadians for a reason. There is nothing about this that equates to "dangerous offender"

A completely unintelligent , unfair, and ridiculous statement.

Well Trudeau ended any support from the West in Ottawa. Ever since Saskatchewan West has felt alienated and abused, and rightfully so.

Also remember who was in power during the FLQ crisis, he had the power to end that before it started, but instead waited until people got killed.

[Boru]

People were killed because of a few, radical, and mentally unstable individuals attempted to establish a terrorist organization in Quebec. That was not Trudeau's doing.

As for the West, it was feeling alientate dlong befoer Trudeau came along. I realize their was a fight over how the oil proceeds were to be distributed and used, but that is a matter of provincial-federal relations. That was also an issue LONG before Trudeau came along.

Trudeau was a federalist, and he was elected to bring those policies into government.

Dangerous offender? Please...

Stupid, over simplistic,statements like these aren't consturctive and they just serve to show an inability to put together a coherent argument.

Radical Conservatives hated Trudeau. We all know that.

And just as many people, if not more, loved him.

[stignasty]

Well Trudeau ended any support from the West in Ottawa. Ever since Saskatchewan West has felt alienated and abused, and rightfully so.

As an Albertan born and raised I feel it's my duty to say that the west needs to quit whining about the Liberals for things that happened 30+ years ago. My conservative MP sat securely on the back benches behind Brian Mulroney and had as much pull as his predecessor who sat far behind Robert Stanfield in opposition. My current MP will move from the back benches on the opposition side to the back benches on the government side. I find it humourous that people here think that things are going to change if the Conservative party forms the government this time around.

[geoffrey]

Well Trudeau ended any support from the West in Ottawa. Ever since Saskatchewan West has felt alienated and abused, and rightfully so.

As an Albertan born and raised I feel it's my duty to say that the west needs to quit whining about the Liberals for things that happened 30+ years ago. My conservative MP sat securely on the back benches behind Brian Mulroney and had as much pull as his predecessor who sat far behind Robert Stanfield in opposition. My current MP will move from the back benches on the opposition side to the back benches on the government side. I find it humourous that people here think that things are going to change if the Conservative party forms the government this time around.

Besides that my MP becomes Prime Minister...

Honestly I know its not about representation, I'm just saying Trudeau was the cause of this division, and no one has really acted to solve that problem.

[FTA Lawyer]

Well Trudeau ended any support from the West in Ottawa. Ever since Saskatchewan West has felt alienated and abused, and rightfully so.

As an Albertan born and raised I feel it's my duty to say that the west needs to quit whining about the Liberals for things that happened 30+ years ago. My conservative MP sat securely on the back benches behind Brian Mulroney and had as much pull as his predecessor who sat far behind Robert Stanfield in opposition. My current MP will move from the back benches on the opposition side to the back benches on the government side. I find it humourous that people here think that things are going to change if the Conservative party forms the government this time around.

Your point is well taken, however, I do think that if elected Stephen Harper will actually implement some of the democratic reforms that he has been pushing for since he was an underling to Preston Manning.

Don't forget, Harper was in Ottawa twice before becoming the Leader of the Opposition, and both times he left because he was disgusted with the status quo of our Federal government.

Once positive democratic reforms become reality, particularly Senate reforms, then the West will start to feel like they have a much larger say in the direction of the country.

I will remain cautiously optomistic.

FTA

[Guest eureka]

Harper did not leave because of any status quo. He left, like those who formed the Bloc, because he could not get his way.

I would ask that you read the Reform Party Caucus statement that he wrote to discover what was his way. He left only because those ideas and others he has consistently affirmed (before his 'evolution') were softend by his party.

I am coming to the conclusion that the man is mad.

[FTA Lawyer]

I am coming to the conclusion that the man is mad.

I formed that conclusion about you long ago eureka...

FTA

[geoffrey]

Harper did not leave because of any status quo. He left, like those who formed the Bloc, because he could not get his way.

I would ask that you read the Reform Party Caucus statement that he wrote to discover what was his way. He left only because those ideas and others he has consistently affirmed (before his 'evolution') were softend by his party.

I am coming to the conclusion that the man is mad.

I'd like to take a read, where'd you find this? I did some extensive googling and couldn't find it.

[Hicksey]

Let's forget the trash talk and check the facts.

There have been many allegations, insinuations, and investigations,

but no criminal charges or real evidence of a Liberal party "crime".

If the Liberals ever release the names of the seven people that took the stolen money into their campaigns this will change. That's not to mention that there's still money left to account for.

And by safe harboring the 7 criminals from prosecution by not releasing their names, Paul Martin is as culpable as the rest.

[geoffrey]

Let's forget the trash talk and check the facts.

There have been many allegations, insinuations, and investigations,

but no criminal charges or real evidence of a Liberal party "crime".

If the Liberals ever release the names of the seven people that took the stolen money into their campaigns this will change. That's not to mention that there's still money left to account for.

And by safe harboring the 7 criminals from prosecution by not releasing their names, Paul Martin is as culpable as the rest.

Obstruction of justice?

They've admited the money was used in campaigns, and yet won't say who's campaigns.

For example, if Pettigrews campaign used a few thousand, I'm sure without the stolen cash he would not have been elected. Is this not profiting from a crime?

Someone's got to stop this non-sense and put some people in jail.

[Boondoggle]

The only facts that matter to someone that is partisan -- and your post is very partisan -- are facts that can be used to support his/her own view and/or reflect poorly on what he/she opposes. However, there are also the facts that these people like to ignore.

Historical Fact: The Liberals have given us the Canadian social safety net, mother's allowance, old age pensions, and instituted the universal health plan proposed by Tommy Douglas. They have also given us the Canada pension plan, Canada student loans, and the Canada assistance plan which provides funding for provincial welfare.

The Liberals have accomplished quite a bit, but they have also been in power most of the time. I'm not going to try to deny that the Liberals have done some good things because I'm not interested in partisan arguments. However, while they've done well in some areas, they've neglected others. For example: they've done well with the budget in recent years, but I just don't think they get it when it comes to defense, democratic reform and law enforcement. Rather than having tunnel vision on what's already going well, maybe it's time to focus on things that aren't going so well, and I'm not convinced you're going to see that with the same party remaining in power for so long.

Under Trudeau they gave us 'multiculturalism' to allow immigrants to retain their culture, patriation of the Canadian constitution, and the Canadian Charter of Rights.

I consider Trudeau to be one of the better Prime Ministers. However, it's interesting how the Liberals recently tried to imply in an attack ad that the Conservatives would use the military to impose martial law when the only Prime Minister to do that was Trudeau.

They have given us eight straight years of surplus, have further plans to build a stronger and better Canada, and while retaining a friendship with the American people, have kept us from being sucked into U.S. 'oil wars'. It's thanks to Liberals that we have our own flag.

Canada has had 8 years of surplus because the tax payers gave them money while services were cut.

They tell you they have plans for the future, but if you elect the same government, you're likely to get the same result. That would include paying down debt, which is good, but I don't think that's the only issue to consider. The question is: are you happy with the status quo? If so, vote Liberal.

I'd say that the friendship between Canada and the US exists more as a result of social and economic interaction than from political rhetoric. It's well known that some of the comments from the Liberals in recent years haven't exactly been helpful.

By definition of the word "ally" Canada should support the US when appropriate. The US doesn't always have it wrong; therefore, supporting the US in conflicts is not an absurd thing to consider.

Furthermore, it's estimated that 500,000 to 1,500,000 people died in Iraq under the sanctions that Canada helped enforce while the Liberals were in power. If you take the lowest figure, it's still higher than the number of deaths in the Iraq war. The conclusion in the Duelfer report echoed what people in UNSCOM were saying years ago, which was that Iraq was fundamentally disarmed in the 90s, yet sanctions continued, and thus the suffering continued. The US/British policy was that 100% verified disarmament was necessary to end sanctions, which was impossible to achieve.

I think Harper spoke prematurely on this subject for partisan reasons, but has long since changed his position. The most important thing, in my opinion, is that elected representatives listen to constituents, and Harper as demonstrated that he can do that. If he gets elected and it's just lip service, it'll be twice as hard for Conservatives to get re-elected. For the Conservatives, the critical thing will be to build trust not pushing contentious issues.

Also, don't forget that it was the Liberals that sent CF-18s on bombing missions in Kosovo in addition to the Canadian armed forces in Afghanistan, and indirectly, Canada contributed more to the Iraq war that alot of the coalition.

Canada also contributed indirectly to the Vietnam war. Canadian made Napalm and Agent Orange ended up in Vietnam, and Agent Orange was tested in Canada even though the government denied it for years. It was the NDP, by the way, that helped uncover that. They also tested Agent Purple, which is far worse than Agent Orange.

The Conservatives destroyed our best chance to become world leaders in aviation by scrapping the Avroe Arrow and then buying obsolete and defective Bomarc missiles from the U.S., which caused many of our best scientists and engineers to migrate southward.

I agree that it was a mistake to scrap the arrow, but there's more to the story when it comes to the Bomarcs. Despite pressure from the US, Diefenbaker refused to arm the Bomarcs with nuclear warheads. At the time, Pearson's wife joined a group called Voice of Women that opposed nuclear weapons in Canada, and Pearson himself was against the idea. However, he later changed his position, and Trudeau lashed out at him for doing so. The following election was fought on the issue of nuclear weapons in Canada, and Pearson won. In 1963, Pearson met with JFK and agreed to nuclear weapons in Canada, which arrived at the end of that year. It seems alot of Canadians aren't even aware that there were nuclear weapons in Canada, but it was a reality thanks to the Liberals.

Native people also got the right to vote when Diefenbaker was Prime Minister.

Under Mulroney they gave us the worst recession since WWII, unemployment at the highest levels since the 1929 Depression, chronically high deficits, and a new tax, the GST.

Typical partisan argument. The Liberals blame Mulroney for it, and the Conservatives blame Trudeau. As for the GST, I thought the Liberals were gonna cut it? What happened to that?

They also gave us the so-called 'Free Trade Act' over the objections of the Liberals and the majority of Canadians, for which we are still suffering.

And the Liberals expanded on it with NAFTA. How do you expect to grow your economy with an isolationist attitude? Canada is next door to the largest economy in the world, which accepts the majority of Canadian exports, and Canada usually has a trade surplus with the US.

The best thing that Canadian voters have ever done was to send the party into oblivion. Unfortunately, it's now rearing it's head again.

That comment shows contempt for democracy. It is NEVER good for democracy to have a lack of opposition to the governing party regardless of which party your views are aligned with. Without opposition, what you have essentially is a coronation not an election.

The NDP is a coalition of socialism and unionism (CCF and CLC), which is great, ... if you happen to be in a union. They would, however, make an excellent opposition party for either Liberal or Conservative minority governments. Tommy Douglas (healthcare) was their brightest talent.

One of the key issues, I believe, in this election is democratic reform, and both the NDP and Conservatives agree on fixed election dates and possibly proportional representation.

The Green party is in it's infancy and is, sadly, limited in it's power to effect anything of substance. They are valid for future consideration.

Perhaps, but the only way for them to grow is if more people support them. Who knows, they my get people in the House of Commons this time. Also, unlike other media sources, CPAC has been covering them.

To not learn from history is possibly the most unforgiveable sin of all.

True, but cherry picking it for partisan reasons is pretty bad too.

[Hicksey]

They have given us eight straight years of surplus, have further plans to build a stronger and better Canada, and while retaining a friendship with the American people, have kept us from being sucked into U.S. 'oil wars'. It's thanks to Liberals that we have our own flag.

Canada has had 8 years of surplus because the tax payers gave them money while services were cut.

Martin has balanced the budget, but he bled our healthcare, infrastructure and provincial budgets right dry. Anyone can take from Peter to pay Paul. I don't find that to be a real achievement at all. As it stands for most Canadians, nearly every benefit we'll get if the party elected keeps its promises will be taken back by the provinces and municipalities in new taxation because Martin decreased their funding to near Draconian levels.

I'd be happy with no promises except that between, Ottawa, the Provinces and the Municipalities none be in deficit spending with no new spending without funding in place before hand. We may be paying down the debt at the federal level, but every year since the Liberals "balanced" the budget we're servicing more and more debt at the two lower levels. The Liberals manage their money in a 'feces roll downhill ...' sort of mentality.

For the life of me I can't figure out why Martin is so proud of robbing Peter to pay Paul (pun intended) and why he'd run on such a platform. I don't think Canadians are that stupid anymore. I think our collective apathy for politcs now demands we look closer and actually choose what we think of the best path. People I know that used to vote Liberal by tradition are rethinking their ways. I think Martin in history will have a better place than people think--though he won't win, he'll be the Prime Minister that got people involved and interested in politics. I think we're going to get one of the best voter turnouts in a lot of years.

[mowich]

I'd like to take a read, where'd you find this? I did some extensive googling and couldn't find it.

Yes indeed I too would like to read this document, where can we find it Geoffery?????

[mar]

hellnback, welcome to the board.

Game on.

First off, check your facts. The Liberal party has admitted to criminal activity, and has vowed to pay back stolen money. They are certainly not the only party to commit this type of crime, but they're the ones caught most recently.

2, the CPP is about as effective as a bladeless knife without a handle. Organized, legalized theft. Nothing more.

3, Trudeau split this country. He should have been convicted as a dangerous offender. His wonderful little ideas caused there to be Canada East and Canada West.

4, patriation of the Charter? Careful on this board, there are too many people (admittedly smarter than I) that would argue that point alone for hours.

5, eight surpluses are easy to accomplish. It simply involves moving numbers when convenient. Understate your revenue, and BOOM, you have a surplus. Steal from the EI fund much?

6, check your dates on the recession. Mulrooooooney was an ass, but it wasn't all his doing. I can say that and I hated the man.

7, the GST. The GST that Johnny Crouton promised to get rid of if elected. And here we are 12 years later. Still got the GST.

8, do you mean the FTA that the Liberals have had 12 years to do away with (tough, admittedly)?

9, the NDP. No comment. They are more than capable of defending themselves. Rovik???

Again, welcome to the board.

A few flaws. Won't deal with all but in order of most glaring:

5, eight surpluses are easy to accomplish. It simply involves moving numbers when convenient. Understate your revenue, and BOOM, you have a surplus. Steal from the EI fund much?

Well, you DO actually have to spend less than you take in, no? I mean, whatever you forecast the revenue as, it still has to ultimately be more than expenditure. Or are you saying the Liberals have somehow managed to conceal billions of dollars in added deficit? Too bad Mulrooney didn't know how to do that, huh?

2, the CPP is about as effective as a bladeless knife without a handle. Organized, legalized theft. Nothing more.

I actually agree with on some of your CPP comments, tho I would stop short of theft, but part of the problem with the CPP is that - as in the U.S. with the old age pension monies - nobody in the investment community wants CPP revenues to be invested by the government as a single block investment fund which would drastically alter the rate of return. However, I do understand that it would be the 2000 lb. gorilla of investment groups and also, the power this fund would have to affect the market could be used for questionable and self-serving purposes by government.

the problem is, are Canadians better off with nothing? I have known a lot of seniors who don't think so, the kind who worked hard all their lives at very low paid jobs. And yes, they would have been better off to invest the money instead of putting it in CPP but they wouldn't have. They would have blown it on food and caring for their children as poor people tend to do.

Not gonna get into Trudeau tho I disagree with you in the strongest terms. However, last time I looked he wasn't running in this election

[Guest eureka]

The Reform Party Caucus Statement of 1988 written by Harper. In it he called for "Means Tested" access to Healthcare although he did not use the words. He phrased it as "di0fferent access for the wealthy; the middle classes and the poor."

That was an interim, measure until the federal government was removed from healthcare altogether and the care provincially controlled.

[hellnback]

hellnback, welcome to the board.

Game on.

First off, check your facts. The Liberal party has admitted to criminal activity, and has vowed to pay back stolen money. They are certainly not the only party to commit this type of crime, but they're the ones caught most recently.

2, the CPP is about as effective as a bladeless knife without a handle. Organized, legalized theft. Nothing more.

3, Trudeau split this country. He should have been convicted as a dangerous offender. His wonderful little ideas caused there to be Canada East and Canada West.

4, patriation of the Charter? Careful on this board, there are too many people (admittedly smarter than I) that would argue that point alone for hours.

5, eight surpluses are easy to accomplish. It simply involves moving numbers when convenient. Understate your revenue, and BOOM, you have a surplus. Steal from the EI fund much?

6, check your dates on the recession. Mulrooooooney was an ass, but it wasn't all his doing. I can say that and I hated the man.

7, the GST. The GST that Johnny Crouton promised to get rid of if elected. And here we are 12 years later. Still got the GST.

8, do you mean the FTA that the Liberals have had 12 years to do away with (tough, admittedly)?

9, the NDP. No comment. They are more than capable of defending themselves. Rovik???

Again, welcome to the board.

Thanks for the welcome, Hydraboss.

correction: The liberal PARTY didn't admit to criminal acts, they did, however publicly acknowledge the fact that some of their members behaved in a dishonest way, and offered to reimburse the money involved.

Would you have them engage in self-flagellation?

2. As a 70 year old pensioner I'm quite aware of how pathetic our pension system is. It's just one of a multitude of areas that need addressing, but I won't lay the blame solely at the feet of the liberals.

3. This country was "split" long before Trudeau came on the scene. Perhaps you should check the longstanding western ill will regarding the CN cattle shipping fiasco.

4. Such people love playing with fine points so much that they'd probably enjoy milking mice.

5. ANY surplus is difficult to arrive at in modern politics, especially so when the preceding rival party has

incurred massive debt.

6. There were signs of the oncoming recession that Mulroney used in order to be elected, then he did absolutely nothing to alleviate the onset and continuation of it.

7. The GST is (in my opinion) an unethical and pathetic attempt to strengthen the profits of the affluent

at the expense of less fortunate people. Chretien lied, and nothing of value has been done to change that.

8. Everyone is entitled to their own perception on the ease or difficulty of such a solution.

9. I kind of like the NDP bit their tendency to be extreme turns me off.

Keep smiling, my friend.

[hellnback]

Let's forget the trash talk and check the facts.

There have been many allegations, insinuations, and investigations,

but no criminal charges or real evidence of a Liberal party "crime".

Liberals are no more corrupt than any other political group. They

have all had their share of scandals, and the current hype is far

too reminiscent of the 'Bush hawks' in their attacks on Bill Clinton.

The Americans were fooled by that and are now paying a severe price

(as is the world). Harper is merely 'Bush north'.

Historical Fact: The Liberals have given us the Canadian social safety

net, mother's allowance, old age pensions, and instituted the universal

health plan proposed by Tommy Douglas. They have also given us the Canada

pension plan, Canada student loans, and the Canada assistance plan which

provides funding for provincial welfare.

Under Trudeau they gave us 'multiculturalism' to allow immigrants to

retain their culture, patriation of the Canadian constitution, and the

Canadian Charter of Rights.

They have given us eight straight years of surplus, have further plans to

build a stronger and better Canada, and while retaining a friendship with

the American people, have kept us from being sucked into U.S. 'oil wars'.

It's thanks to Liberals that we have our own flag.

The Conservatives destroyed our best chance to become world leaders in

aviation by scrapping the Avroe Arrow and then buying obsolete and

defective Bomarc missiles from the U.S., which caused many of our best

scientists and engineers to migrate southward.

Under Mulroney they gave us the worst recession since WWII, unemployment

at the highest levels since the 1929 Depression, chronically high

deficits, and a new tax, the GST.

They also gave us the so-called 'Free Trade Act' over the objections of

the Liberals and the majority of Canadians, for which we are still

suffering.

The best thing that Canadian voters have ever done was to send the party

into oblivion. Unfortunately, it's now rearing it's head again.

The NDP is a coalition of socialism and unionism (CCF and CLC), which is

great, ... if you happen to be in a union. They would, however, make an

excellent opposition party for either Liberal or Conservative minority

governments. Tommy Douglas (healthcare) was their brightest talent.

The Green party is in it's infancy and is, sadly, limited in it's power

to effect anything of substance. They are valid for future consideration.

To not learn from history is possibly the most unforgiveable sin of all.

Some of what you say is misleading. The one that jumps out at me is the health care The Liberals didn't give us universal health care. The public system we benefit from today came as a result of a Liberal minority government working in coalition with the NDP.

But this is besides the point. It's unfair to attribute today's leaders with past party mistakes, as well as triumphs. You selectively mention what parties have done to champion the Liberal cause.

The Liberals have given us 8 straight years of surplus.

How did they do that? Under martin's direction, they slashed funding across the board more than any Conservative PM ever has...

You want to reach back into history? Well, which party was it decided to draft troops for World War 2? ( This being after they promised not to..._

I'm not a Conservative supporter, but Martin has had his chance. The fact that he survived to take office after the scandal initially erupted was a godsend to the Liberals, and they blew it. What did they do in that time? They knew that they had an election coming. Martin knew he had to leave an impression, make an impact...

In my opinion, many people aren't voting for Conservatiove, but against Martin. If the party had a leader with his integrity intact, then he would have had no trouble taking over the reigns of Chretiens majority.

If Harper gets his chance now, which is not a certainty, then so be it.

It's only misleading to those who don't read it carefully, and/or depending on their individual perception.

If you check you'll see that I gave the credit for the plan to Tommy Douglas. My intention is not to deceive,

but to present accurate facts.

I'm not atrributing anything to today's leaders, simply referring to overall party performance.

Funding was necessarily slashed since that is the only intelligent remedy for overspending. Would you prefer tax increases? Troops were drafted because of a threat to the entire world by the Nazi mentality,

unlike today's hype about the new bogeyman "terrorists" that Harper would use as an excuse to have us

engaged in Bush's oil wars.

Actually, Martin was only beginning to "have his chance" since he and Chretien weren't exactly drinking buddies. To place the scandals in his lap is to follow the 'spin' by rival parties playing nasty. From the time he took office as Prime Minister the dogs were nipping his heels, so he really didn't have ANY time to show what he could do as leader. I personally don't like the man, and consider his ethics quite suspect but I'm also aware of what the alternatives are.

Yes, the majority uninformed voters are following the media sensationalism like drugged sheep, while Martin tries to consolidate the remaining loyal liberal members. Don't forget that there is still much internal dissent over the Martin/Chretien feud.

Your "so be it" would most likely result in the worst experience in Canada's history. Harper wants to be

the fairhaired son of the Washington neo-cons. Enough said?

I wish you well.

[mar]

The thing that would have the most benefit for the general population, would be easy to implement and inherently equal regarding GST would be to expand the exempt items.

I can't say my info is 100% up to date as I haven't been there for awhile but I know that in France they do not merely exempt childrens clothing and groceries and a few other items like here, but also exempt a lot of other household essentials that we tax like soap, etc., from their federal tax. There is also a "luxury" component. So for example, all clothing is exempt up to a certain price (varies for item). You can buy a nice suit or dress without paying federal tax; buy Armani or Chanel and you're taxed. Or actually, not always as French retailers will put more expensive items on sale priced just below the tax threshhold.

This seems a reasonable approach to me, I mean unless you work in the porn industry or at a nude beach you probably need to buy clothes to allow you to work and its amazing to buy a bunch of household essentials and see how few of them are taxed compared to here.

This would be inherently equal - everyone buys this stuff - and would have a real benefit for middle and low income families. And even tho sales taxes are hated in all countries that have them, it might even reduce the resentment a bit.

[cybercoma]

The Reform Party Caucus Statement of 1988 written by Harper. In it he called for "Means Tested" access to Healthcare although he did not use the words. He phrased it as "di0fferent access for the wealthy; the middle classes and the poor."

That was an interim, measure until the federal government was removed from healthcare altogether and the care provincially controlled.

Provincially controlled as it is supposed to be.