Harper looking good; Martin looking frazzled

[tml12]

You're willing to call the NDP communist, which few members would admit to being, but are unwilling to acknowledge that Harper is a neocon, which even he has admitted and never denied being.

The CPC is centre-right, not neocon as you leftists would like the Canadian electorate to believe.

Explain, BM, using current facts how the CPC is neocon...

[BubberMiley]

I didn't say the CPC is newcon. They are not presently running on a neocon platform, so I don't know. I do know their leader is, along with David Frum, a poster boy for neoconservativism. I also know the Reform Party was the definition of Canadian neoconservativism. You wonder why people accuse the CPC of having a hidden agenda when they deny their own leader's clearly stated principles. If they didn't want a neocon leader, they should have elected Peter Mackay or Bernard Lord or Belinda Stronach as their leader.

[Montgomery Burns]

how can anyone, with a straight face, say Harper is not a neoconservative, unless they don't have a clue what a newcon is? The Reform Party is the Canadian definition of a neoconservative party. It may not be a popular term now with the neocon GOP in power down south, and the CPC may not be running on a neocon platform because everybody agrees it isn't presently electable, but Harper was clearly, uncategorically, undeniably and reliably a neocon until, oh, around two years ago. I'll concede the CPC may have members among them who actually believe in some of the moderate platform they've been running on, but I don't think Harper has changed his perspective on life completely. He's obviously just doing his job, being a politician, and shutting up when he has nothing to win by talking.

CTV's Mike Duffy said it. What is so sinister about 'neoconservative'? Neo is a prefix meaning new/modern.

There's hundreds of neoconservatives being born every day.

Remember Sir Winston Churchill's famous quip: "If you are under 30 and not a liberal--you have no heart. If you are over 30 and not a conservative--you have no brain."

The CPC is a moderate right-of-centre party. They aren't the Conservative Reagan Administration, but neither are they the wishy-washy Progressive Conservative Party--which I considered basically a centre-right party (Liberal Lite).

I think the CPC is laying out their philosophy very well. They are not the watery Progressive Conservatives, and they are not a Reagan Administration. I don't think a true conservative party would win in Canada. The US is a center-right country, but I feel that Canada is a center-left country. Harper is a moderate conservative in my book. I think Bush is a moderate conservative. He's conservative when it comes to foreign policy and taxcuts, but he is hardly conservative when it comes to domestic spending (Mr. Compassionate Conservative).

[hiti]

The hangover is going to be termendous!!!

God help us all and save us from the Mulroney/Harris/Harper government.

[BubberMiley]

There must be something sinister about being a neocon considering nearly every CPC poster on this site says it's a "hateful lie" when people call Harper one.

[tml12]

The hangover is going to be termendous!!!

God help us all and save us from the Mulroney/Harris/Harper government.

Said like a typical scared leftie. First, I would never vote Conservative if Harper was like that buffoon Mulrooney.

Second, I don't live in Ontario so I don't follow Ontario politics.

Third, if you don't want to vote Conservative, vote NDP. At least there is some self-respect in doing that.

[Wilber]

There must be something sinister about being a neocon considering nearly every CPC poster on this site says it's a "hateful lie" when people call Harper one.

It depends in what context it is used. If it is used with the intent to insult, it is taken that way. After all "bastard" merely means one who's parents weren't married but it is seldom used that way these days.

[shoop]

Neo-con is used in such a hurtful way, and really doesn't describe Harper.

Of course, BM is exaggerating. As do most Liberals. Just the outcome of a desperate losing race.

It depends in what context it is used. If it is used with the intent to insult, it is taken that way. After all "bastard" merely means one who's parents weren't married but it is seldom used that way these days.

[Guest eureka]

You are right. Monty, there are hundreds of neocons born every day. Just as, as Barnum said, there is a sucker born every minute. Neocon leaders + greedy, selfish b...ds. Neocon supporters = suckers.

Every conned conservative on these forrums keeps shouting the CPC slogan that it is time for a change. That is, as I have said a couple of times, what the Germans and Italians said when they allowed Hitler and Mussolini to take the reins.

The Canadian CPCites are just like those two peoples: blind and deaf and mostly dumb. The few who are not dumb but are blind and deaf all post here

[tml12]

You are right. Monty, there are hundreds of neocons born every day. Just as, as Barnum said, there is a sucker born every minute. Neocon leaders + greedy, selfish b...ds. Neocon supporters = suckers.

Every conned conservative on these forrums keeps shouting the CPC slogan that it is time for a change. That is, as I have said a couple of times, what the Germans and Italians said when they allowed Hitler and Mussolini to take the reins.

The Canadian CPCites are just like those two peoples: blind and deaf and mostly dumb. The few who are not dumb but are blind and deaf all post here

LMAO just like a typical Liberal voter...

[Argus]

You are right. Monty, there are hundreds of neocons born every day. Just as, as Barnum said, there is a sucker born every minute. Neocon leaders + greedy, selfish b...ds. Neocon supporters = suckers.

Every conned conservative on these forrums keeps shouting the CPC slogan that it is time for a change. That is, as I have said a couple of times, what the Germans and Italians said when they allowed Hitler and Mussolini to take the reins.

The Canadian CPCites are just like those two peoples: blind and deaf and mostly dumb. The few who are not dumb but are blind and deaf all post here

A shrill, stupid post that only serves to make you look like a fool.

how can anyone, with a straight face, say Harper is not a neoconservative, unless they don't have a clue what a newcon is?

Oh do please tell us. We want to know what the difference is between a conservative and a neo-con.

Go for it. I eagerly await what I'm certain will be an interesting post.

[shoop]

Let me get this right. You are comparing the CPC to the Nazis and Mussolini's followers in WW 2?

Yeah, that is a pretty fair analogy.

Yet again proving my point about how desperate the Liberals are. Those comparisons are insulting and ignorant. There should be some honour in politics. People aren't *evil* just because they oppose you.

That shrillness is really pathetics and hurting your electoral chances.

Thanks for saying the conservative posters here aren't dumb.

Every conned conservative on these forrums keeps shouting the CPC slogan that it is time for a change. That is, as I have said a couple of times, what the Germans and Italians said when they allowed Hitler and Mussolini to take the reins.

The Canadian CPCites are just like those two peoples: blind and deaf and mostly dumb. The few who are not dumb but are blind and deaf all post here

[BubberMiley]

Talk about shrill.

How's this cut-and-paste job? I'm too lazy to paraphrase for you.

Neoconservatism broke with the old Progressive Conservatives by encouraging closer political cooperation with the United States, and was aloof towards the party's interventionist Keynesian economics and traditional support of Canada's colonial ties to Britain. Neoconservatives advocate a realist, self-interested approach to national and international relations and tend to support socially conservative policies, although there also exists a deep libertarian strain that brings the two into conflict.

Neoconservatives emphasize tax cuts - particularly personal and corporate income tax cuts, and often accompanied by increases in user fees such as post-secondary tuition - broad cuts to public spending and services, increased privatization and provision of public goods through outsourcing and public-private partnerships, reduction of individual benefits such as welfare and unemployment benefits, and workfare.

This is a far cry from the moderate conservativism Canadians were used to up till the founding of the Reform Party, and the moderate conservativism still being advocated by the few remaining PCers in the CPC.

[Guest eureka]

Try to address the point instead of hysterical outbursts. You are all shouting that it is time for a change just as every oppressed people did before they got the change: Germany and Italy are two good examples.

And, the good citiizens of those countries were just like you CPCers. Awed by the slogans and blind to the meaning and consequences.

"Visions of dollar signs dance in your heads" and leave no room for the vision of what is to come with a Harper government.

Have any of you even attempted to cost out the Conservative "platfoem?" Have you understood that the combination of giveaways with the promise of tax reductions would lead to massive deficit? Ot is quite impossible for Harper to deliver even a fraction of what he has proposed.

Have you even paid any attention to what I have been saying for a long time to you: that Canada is the most decentralised nation in the world and Harper's promise is to devolve further powers to the Provinces?

That is the deliberate and putposed beak-up of Canada.

This Conservative platform is a mesh of lies and deceit and you are suckers all who fall for it.

[shoop]

Try to address the point instead of hysterical outbursts. You are all shouting that it is time for a change just as every oppressed people did before they got the change: Germany and Italy are two good examples. And, the good citiizens of those countries were just like you CPCers. Awed by the slogans and blind to the meaning and consequences.

There are a lot of other examples you could have used. Your analogy leaves the impression that a CPC government will be as barbaric and brutal as the two you alluded to.

Have any of you even attempted to cost out the Conservative "platfoem?" Have you understood that the combination of giveaways with the promise of tax reductions would lead to massive deficit? Ot is quite impossible for Harper to deliver even a fraction of what he has proposed.

I keep hearing this from the Liberals, but have yet to see any proof. Seems to me that it is not going to be all that much more expensive compared to all the Liberal promises.

This Conservative platform is a mesh of lies and deceit and you are suckers all who fall for it.

Are you really that brainwashed to believe *anybody* who opposes the Liberals is a sucker?

[tml12]

Well done Shoop.

I admit I have gotten a little carried away recently with my pro-CPC attacks but I took a two-week vacation from work over the holidays and started thinking and talking to people. Prior to that, I was undecided. But now, I realize the CPC is the only choice. They will stand up for Canada. The Liberals can't, even if they wanted to.

It is a shame Canada has come to this...but it is the Liberals who have authored the book. History will judge them accordingly.

As for respectful debate, let's continue it. I will respect Liberal supporters (though I am unsure how they can respect themselves )

[Wilber]

Talk about shrill.

How's this cut-and-paste job? I'm too lazy to paraphrase for you.

Neoconservatism broke with the old Progressive Conservatives by encouraging closer political cooperation with the United States, and was aloof towards the party's interventionist Keynesian economics and traditional support of Canada's colonial ties to Britain. Neoconservatives advocate a realist, self-interested approach to national and international relations and tend to support socially conservative policies, although there also exists a deep libertarian strain that brings the two into conflict.

Neoconservatives emphasize tax cuts - particularly personal and corporate income tax cuts, and often accompanied by increases in user fees such as post-secondary tuition - broad cuts to public spending and services, increased privatization and provision of public goods through outsourcing and public-private partnerships, reduction of individual benefits such as welfare and unemployment benefits, and workfare.

This is a far cry from the moderate conservativism Canadians were used to up till the founding of the Reform Party, and the moderate conservativism still being advocated by the few remaining PCers in the CPC.

Care to let us in on the source, or did you make it up yourself.

[BubberMiley]

Wikipedia. Why? Is there something you disagree with?

[Wilber]

Wikipedia. Why? Is there something you disagree with?

Founded by some dude called Jimmy Wales. Who's he?

I can tell you that there are a lot more Federal user fees in aviation since Martin became Finance Minister. He's also passed off responsibility for airports to the municipalities and privatized air traffic control and flight service stations. I guess there is a bit of neocon in all of us.

[BubberMiley]

Okay, fine. Martin has some principles that could be considered neoconservative. I'm not using it as a bogeyman term like many others do. I'm just stating the facts, ma'am. Harper is a neocon; the CPC will lie and cry and do anything to make it seem like he isn't.

[shoop]

Hmmm, not using it as a *bogeyman term* in the same post you say the CPC *will* lie and cry.

Would *lie and cry* be a bogeyman phrase?

I'm not using it as a bogeyman term like many others do.

Harper is a neocon; the CPC will lie and cry and do anything to make it seem like he isn't.

[BubberMiley]

You're the one saying calling Harper a neocon is reactionary, hurtful and a lie. You're the o ne turning it into a bogeyman term by being so scared to admit that it fully defines his positions.

[Wilber]

Okay, fine. Martin has some principles that could be considered neoconservative. I'm not using it as a bogeyman term like many others do. I'm just stating the facts, ma'am. Harper is a neocon; the CPC will lie and cry and do anything to make it seem like he isn't.

Actually you are, and you're calling him a lier to boot. He has made his policy's pretty clear and as he will probably only have a minority if he gets in power, he will have to do some serious horse trading to get them implemented. It will be very difficult to go off track on any of them. Maybe that's why people don't see him quite so scary scary any more. He has also said he feels he can work with Layton although Layton swings in a different direction daily, so I wish him luck.

Speaking of lying and crying, how many RCMP investigations do the Liberals have going so far?

[BubberMiley]

I am not calling him a liar, you are. I'm saying he is not wishy-washy, that his ideas are well thought-out and he knows exactly what he believes. You seem to be saying that he has renounced the principles he stood for when he founded the Reform Party and was president of the NCC, when he hasn't. I am saying, just as you are, that he may be willing to make policy concessions to get elected and stay in power. I don't agree with neoconservativism and so I would agree that it is a negative term (based on my own ideology). You probably have no problem with the ideology, but you're scared to use the term because you think it is pejorative. That's probably because the most incompetent government on the face of the earth is a neocon government, and you don't like being associated with them.

[shoop]

The Canadian Liberals consider themselves neocons?

That's probably because the most incompetent government on the face of the earth is a neocon government, and you don't like being associated with them.