Sad When People Purposely Mislabel the NDP

[Montgomery Burns]

The moment you wrote that Hitler was a Socialist, you disqualified yourself as a serious commentator.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The moment you denied that Hitler wasn't a socialist, you disqualified yourself as a serious commentator. Study Hitler's policies and his personal beliefs. Do you even know what Nazi is short for?

The claim that Hitler was a rightwinger is one of the biggest lies of the 20th century, a lie perpetuated by the academic-controlled left because they did not want to admit that yet another socialist was responsible for the mass murder of innocents.

Like the previous commentator told you, nearly all the mass murderers of the 20th century were leftists.

[cybercoma]

Who is 55555 Inc?  And why did they give the liberal party nearly $3 million?

It appears it is shell company set up for Paul Martin's leadership bid:

... David Herle controlled 55555 Inc. the shell company formed to collect the donations for Mr. [Martin]'s leadership and single largest contributitor to the Liberal Party in 2003 ($2,974,341.20) was administered out of the offices of the same Ernst & Young office at 100 Queen St. in Ottawa.

link

Has Martin actually published the names of contributor's to his leadership campaign? I remember saying he was going to but never heard anything more. If this information is readily available then Election's Canada should have a link to it. Allowing mysterious numbered companies on the list of political party donors is not exactly transparent.

Note that the Conservative Party also accepts donations from numbered companies so the use of a numbered company is not really an issue. It is the amount that raises questions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The next highest business to donate to a party was Magna, to the Conservatives, at roughly 1/10th that figure. Three million dollars is astronomical, in terms of political donations, and if you do a little digging around it would appear that 55555 Inc is the company (which has closed books, not open for public viewing btw...) that was used to launder some of the adscam monies.

Earnscliffe's owners David Herle and John Webster, who are also the national Liberal Co-chairs, donated nearly 3 million dollars to the Liberal party through a container company #55555 Inc. In total, Earnscliffe has earned over $6 Million dollars in government contracts under Martin's watch. The question remains is whether Martin deliberately diverted contracts toward Earnscliffe, which is operated by Liberal party members, who then diverted money through #55555 Inc and back to the Liberal party.

It seems a little far fetched that a corporation would give $3 million out of the goodness of its heart. Like I said, the next highest business/commercial contributor to ANY political party is Magna at about 1/10th that and the next highest Liberal donator was CN Rail, which is government run and shouldn't be used to fund political parties either.

So, how can anyone claim Paul Martin has been exhonerated? How can anyone even consider any of this acceptable, or even ethical? They put over $3 million of taxpayers money back into the party and it's right on the books, could you imagine what they're REALLY trying to hide?

[Montgomery Burns]

1) Here are some official policy quotes I got off the web:

*  We remain in the forefront of the people’s struggles : for labour rights, social justice and the environment; defending the rights of minorities, women, gays and lesbians; fighting for youth and students.

*  The struggle of the Canadian people for democracy, sovereignty, peace and social advance is essentially a political struggle against big business and its control of the Canadian State. The interests of the vast majority of Canadians are in conflict with the anti-democratic, neoliberal policies of the transnationals and the banks.

*  ...offering a clear and consistent vision of a socialist Canada, where the priority is people’s needs, not corporate greed

Sounds like many of the NDPers on this site.

Btw, I got those quotes from the official policies platform at the Communist Party of Canada website.

2) As for the history revisionists who claim that Hitler and his National Socialist party were rightwing, let's take a look at what Adolf Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf:

Hence the movement must adopt a positive attitude towards the trade-unionist idea. But it must go further than this. For the enormous number of members and followers of the trade-unionist movement it must provide a practical education which will meet the exigencies of the coming National Socialist State.

Karl Rove zapped Hitler with his mind-control ray gun!

3) Does anyone know what the second "S" in U.S.S.R was?

4) Let's take a look at what Jack Layton said in an interview last year (top of Page 4):

I'm proud to call myself a socialist.  I prefer it by far to democratic socialist.

This is from a NDP site.

[Riverwind]

the next highest Liberal donator was CN Rail, which is government run and shouldn't be used to fund political parties either.

CN is a private corporation is the same way Air Canada is a private corporation (i.e. both used to be Crown Corporations and are subject to tonnes of government regulations).

So, how can anyone claim Paul Martin has been exhonerated?  How can anyone even consider any of this acceptable, or even ethical?  They put over $3 million of taxpayers money back into the party and it's right on the books, could you imagine what they're REALLY trying to hide?

I agree that this $3 million donation needs to be explained and attributed. It is possible that 3 million was collected from many smaller donations to Martin's leadership campaign which were then rolled into Liberal party funds once Martin became the leader. However, even if this is the case, Martin needs to publish the names of those donors before voting day.

Any excuse or waffling at this point would more or less demonstrate that he has something to hide. Even if what he is hiding has nothing to do with sponsership, the fact that he still thinks he can hide something as significant as $3 million donation more or less proves the opposition right when they say Martin is not really committed to cleaning up gov't.

Does anyone know if the media and or opposition parties are going to make an issue out this?

[mcqueen625]

Ever notice that many Conservative supporters (and Liberal ones as well, though not as much) call the NDP such terms as Communists, Socialists, Marxists and goodness knows what else.   In reality, the NDP are Social Democrats.   Are these people that scared of the NDP, that they are trying to make them out to be the boogey man.   It's really sad if you ask me.

Another scare tactic they use is bringing up the Rae govt from the early 90s.   You would think this was the worst govt. ever in the history of the world.   Yet they don't bring up other provinicial govts such as Grant Devine's last than stellar govt. in Sask. that ran deficits for multiple terms.   They don't mention the Liberal and Conservative govts. in Newfoundland during the 70s, 80s and 90s, that put Newfoundland in a bad financial situation.   They don't mention that the Trudeau's Liberal govt and then Mulrooney's Conservative govt. put Canada deep in debt.   No, it's because they only want you to believe that only the NDP can have bad govts.

I think these people are either misguided or are scared of any inroads that the NDP may make Federally so they fabricate lies and half-truths to scare people from the NDP.   These people should be ashamed of themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The NDP are Socialist's and want the government to do everything for the people. Layton is death against any tax reductions because tax cuts will allow the people ourselves to decide where to spend our money. It is our money after all, and surpluses just should not exist. Having surpluses simply means that the government is taking far too much money from the people, and government was never meant to become a for-profit enterprise, in fact it is supposed to break even.

An NDP Government would have us all paying far more than we already do to fund their cradle to grave social programs. I admit it, I used to vote NDP exclusively, but that was before Alexia McDonough revealed the true agenda of the NDP's, and things have gone from bad to worse with the appointment of Layton as leader. To fund all that he envisions are tax freedom day will eventually jump to December instead of July where it presently sits with the Liberal in power for the past dozen years.

The Conservatives are the only one's talking about meaningfully cutting taxes. Sure the Liberals say that they have been cutting taxes but for the life of me I see no more money freed up for me to decide where it will be spent, and the NDP isn't even talking about cutting taxes, in fact they are lobbying not to cut any taxes at all.

[Rovik]

Nevertheless, the backbone of Conservative funding is still individual donations in smaller amounts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Looking the the individual parties, the ratio of individuals to corporations contributions are all pretty close, so going by your arguement, all the parties' backbone funding is individual donations in smaller amounts.

Well, I don't remember, but I could suggest that the cod industry was shut down through federal govenrment incompetence, and that as there was no prospect of it starting up again with any strength in the near or medium term conservatives would have thought giving money to them a waste and countrproductive. That kind of program encourages people to sit pat, when there's nothing to sit pat for. They should have been moving on to other areas..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are absolutely right. Conservative and Liberal Federal govts. have indeed been incompetent toward managing the fisheries. And in re: to the program itself, it was mismanaged and many people who got assistance shouldn't have gotten it but at the same time it's hard to tell 40s-50s year old fishermen with no education to move on to other areas. Some did get training under the program but many of these did not find work out of it.

Someone on CTV suggested the other day that Jack Layton spent more on each individual suit than the average Canadian spends on all his clothing in a year. The bedrock of NDP support are the gucci-wearing, upper middle class, wine and cheese eating dabblers who live in comfortable condos and love thinking of themselves as cosmopolitan...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't put much stock in someone "suggesting" Jack Layton spent more on each individual suit than the average Canadian spends on all his clothing in a year. Did this person have the sales receipt of a suit that Leyton bought. I would put as much credence in this as someone suggesting that the moon was made of green cheese. And of course, my impression of CTV is not one of being NDP-friendly anyway.

Uh huh, so because of their interest in moving left the union leaders moved right? That makes sense - not. However, I do agree that most union leaders are wildly out of touch with their membership and  much further to the left than most Canadians, more than willing to screw over their membership in the name of a leftist political agenda.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes it doesn't make much sense. I see this as Hargrove looking to collect in the future from Martin for his support. Basically, Hargrove wants leverage in the future over Martin and the Liberals. I could see Hargrove in the future saying to Martin, well I supported you in the previous election, now I want you to do something for me.

[Guest eureka]

All Hargrove did was to suggest that people vote "strategically." Layton, naturally, would disagree with that. It remains to be seen who is right and both look at this in different ways.

Hargrove would want a Liberal government with an NDP balance. Layton wants as many seats as he can get regardless of whether NDP counts elect a few Conservatives where a Liberal might otherwise have won.

[scribblet]

It seems to me the last time people practised 'strategic voting' it caused the NDP to lose seats and their funding. Then they all shed crocodile tears demanding the NDP receive that funding and status anyway. How anyone can support a party but vote 'strategically' then cry the blues when it loses seats and status, is beyond me. Talk about hypocrites.

[cybercoma]

Listen, it's as clear as day in the "Preamble" of their Party Constitution (which every member MUST believe in and follow).

The New Democratic Party believes that the social, economic and political progress of Canada can be assured only by the application of democratic socialist principles to government and the administration of public affairs.

They believe in democratic socialist principles, period, full stop, end of story.

If you need help understanding what they means, they elaborate.

The principles of democratic socialism can be defined briefly as:

That the production and distribution of goods and services shall be directed to meeting the socialand individual needs of people within a sustainable environment and economy and not to the making of profit;

So we're going to dictate to businesses what their prices will be. Sounds a lot like the Soviet Union, which is a crumbled, smoldering disaster of a beacon for socialists everywhere.

If the government doesn't plan on dictating to businesses what the price of goods and services will be, then they must dictate what labour costs will be. With the rise in labour, inflation will skyrocket and people will become unemployed.

And of course, if there is no motivation to better yourself or to be innovative, what kind of advances would we miss?

To modify and control the operations of the monopolistic productive and distributive organizations through economic and social planning. Towards these ends and where necessary the extension of the principle of social ownership

Economic and social planning were a huge disaster in the Soviet Union. The economy is self-regulating through capitalism. Regulating the prices of the millions of products available in Canada would be an exercise in futility. Not to mention we're simply trading a capitalist monopoly (which is regulated through capitalist purchasing power) to a government monopoly which would be regulated by nothing more than the whim of some bureaucracy.

The New Democratic Party holds firm to the belief that the dignity and freedom of the individual isa basic right that must be maintained and extended

Only in so far as the individual doesn't seek to gain profit or take a risk no one else is willing to take and develop a monopoly. You're entitled to your freedom as long as you hand over your money so the NDP can distribute it as they see fit.

The New Democratic Party is proud to be associated with the democratic socialist parties of the world and to share the struggle for peace, international co-operation and the abolition of poverty

Capitalism has done more for poverty than any socialist regime on this planet. Socialism has done nothing to stop poverty, in fact it has had the opposite effect in the sense that everyone is equal - equally poor. There is still a class divide with socialism, you have those running the show and controlling the economy and those being controlled. Forget middle class, won't exist.

The NDP, quite simply put, is dangerous and it's a shame most people don't realize the path it leads down. They are PROUD to be socialist despite the numerous faults that have been shown in recent history. The idea of everyone making a livable wage and abolishing poverty is a nice sentiment, but it just does not work. We should have programs to assist people on hard times, but giving the government total economic and social control is asinine and that's being polite. When there is no motivation for people to better themselves they won't take the risks to make advances. Corporations in the United States are known the world over because they're allowed the freedom to advance and their owners are allowed the rewards of taking risks. In a socialist New Democrat society, that would never happen.

[shoop]

The NDP isn't dangerous simply because they have *NO* chance of forming government in this election. They never have in any Canadian election.

The NDP, quite simply put, is dangerous and it's a shame most people don't realize the path it leads down.  They are PROUD to be socialist despite the numerous faults that have been shown in recent history.  The idea of everyone making a livable wage and abolishing poverty is a nice sentiment, but it just does not work.  We should have programs to assist people on hard times, but giving the government total economic and social control is asinine and that's being polite.  When there is no motivation for people to better themselves they won't take the risks to make advances.  Corporations in the United States are known the world over because they're allowed the freedom to advance and their owners are allowed the rewards of taking risks.  In a socialist New Democrat society, that would never happen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest eureka]

Don't be an idiot, Monty. I seriously question the mental condition of the few left in the world who claim that Hitler was a Socialist. He was so far from that it is beyond ludicrous to make the claim.

Your selected quote from Mein Kampf is somewhat at odds with his very fast move to destroy the Unions when he came to power.

Anyway, this has all been done before. I think Black Dog had more of a hand in routing the couple of nutcases who argued as you do than I had.

It is too boring a topic for discussion and a waste of this thread.

[cybercoma]

The NDP isn't dangerous simply because they have *NO* chance of forming government in this election. They never have in any Canadian election.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I feel they're dangerous because they're sugar coating their platform to the point of being downright misleading and deceptive. They are the Canadian Socialist Party and that's all there is to it. So, unless people are looking for a United Canadian Socialist Republic, voting NDP is stupid.

[shoop]

CC,

That is going a *little* far. There are people on the left of the canadian spectrum that are looking for an alternative in their voting choice.

United Canadian Socialist Republic? Yikes dude the overstatement doesn't really help your argument and makes you look like a watcher of Fox News.

I feel they're dangerous because they're sugar coating their platform to the point of being downright misleading and deceptive.  They are the Canadian Socialist Party and that's all there is to it.  So, unless people are looking for a United Canadian Socialist Republic, voting NDP is stupid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[BubberMiley]

I think it's far more accurte to call the CPC the Republican Party of Canada than to call the NDP the Canadian Socialist Party. If the CPC get in, how long before Canada starts recording record deficits? A year?

[Montgomery Burns]

Don't be an idiot, Monty. I seriously question the mental condition of the few left in the world who claim that Hitler was a Socialist. He was so far from that it is beyond ludicrous to make the claim.

Your selected quote from Mein Kampf is somewhat at odds with his very fast move to destroy the Unions when he came to power.

Anyway, this has all been done before. I think Black Dog had more of a hand in routing the couple of nutcases who argued as you do than I had.

It is too boring a topic for discussion and a waste of this thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Eureka,

Please quit embarrassing yourself by denying that Hitler was a socialist. Do you even know what Nazi is short for? Hitler was to the left of Communism, but he was definitely a socialist. The fact that you believe Black Dog only strenthens my case; BD still denies that there were any Al Qaeda members in Iraq before Saddam was overthrown, despite every sane person in the world knowing that Al Qaeda was in Iraq.

A direct quote from Hitler: "We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions".

Yep. Sounds like a rightwinger to me.

From the manifesto of the National Socialist German Workers Party--written by Hitler himself:

* The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. The activities of the individual may not clash with the interests of the whole, but must proceed within the frame of the community and be for the general good.

* We demand the nationalization of businesses which have been organized into cartels.

* We demand that all the profits from wholesale trade shall be shared out.

* We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle-class, the immediate communalization of department stores which will be rented cheaply to small businessmen, and that preference shall be given to small businessmen for provision of supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

* We demand a land reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to confiscate from the owners without compensation any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

I could flood this thread with examples of Hitler's leftism but we are getting off-topic. Perhaps another time if someone wants to take me on.

[cybercoma]

I think it's far more accurte to call the CPC the Republican Party of Canada than to call the NDP the Canadian Socialist Party. If the CPC get in, how long before Canada starts recording record deficits? A year?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who knows, this current party has never been in power. And the NDP is the Canadian Socialist Party, the statement is right in their Constitution and they're a proud member of Socialist International. How the heck can you say they're NOT socialist? Furthermore, USSR has socialist in its name. There's no denying what the NDP is and what they believe in. The problem is that they're a wolf in sheep's clothing.

[BubberMiley]

The NDP has been in power for 6 years in Manitoba. They have not recommended or implemented one initiative that could remotely be considered socialist (except slight incremental increases in the minimum wage). More like a lamb in sheep's clothing.

[cybercoma]

The NDP has been in power for 6 years in Manitoba. They have not recommended or implemented one initiative that could remotely be considered socialist (except slight incremental increases in the minimum wage). More like a lamb in sheep's clothing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

More like ineffectual leadership, since they're not following their own party constitution.

[BubberMiley]

So by not acting as socialists, they are ineffectual?

[cybercoma]

So by not acting as socialists, they are ineffectual?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By not following their Party Constitution, yes.

[Slavik44]

And the NDP is the Canadian Socialist Party, the statement is right in their Constitution

"The New Democratic Party believes that the social, economic and political progress of Canada can be assured only by the application of democratic socialist principles to government and the administration of public affairs."

and they're a proud member of Socialist International. 

FOR THE SECOND TIME

The First statute of the socialist international:

1. THE SOCIALIST INTERNATIONAL is an association of political parties and organisations which seek to establish democratic socialism.

Under the Declaration of Principles, section two number twelve.

"Democratic socialism is an international movement for freedom, social justice and solidarity. Its goal is to achieve a peaceful world where these basic values can be enhanced and where each individual can live a meaningful life with the full development of his or her personality and talents and with the guarantee of human and civil rights in a democratic framework of society."

How the heck can you say they're NOT socialist?

Because they are Not Socialists

Furthermore, USSR has socialist in its name. 

Yes, you have it now, true socialists hate capitalism they want it abolished and the USSR is Socialist, very good. USSR=Socialist NDP= Democratic socialists to left wing progressives and liberals.

There's no denying what the NDP is

You are correct party membership is made up of Democratic Socialists, Progressives, Liberals, Environmentalists, Strong Union supporters, and a couple of nut job socialists. But I think I said that before, infact this post is sorta like deja vu, and your post is sorta like continued ignorance.

and what they believe in.

1. Ethics

Politics should be about people, not well-connected friends and lobbyists.

2. Improved public health care

Canadians want quality, reliable health care for everyone — not just those who can afford to buy it. That's why the NDP created public medicare in this country.

3. Opportunities through education & training

Canadians are hard-working people who know our prosperity is fueled by educating and training young people.

4. Clean water, clean air and the environment

Canadians want to move from a polluting economy to a sustainable one. But after 12 years of Liberal government, Canada is more polluted and falling further behind.

5. Protecting workers’ pensions

Canadians are hard-working people and they deserve to retire in dignity. That’s why New Democrats helped create public pensions like the Canada Pension Plan.

6. International Aid

Canada has the resources and expertise to help developing nations provide people with education, clean water, sustainable power and life-saving drugs.

7. Honouring obligations to Aboriginal Canadians

Increasingly, First Nations, Inuit and Métis people are making prominent contributions to a better Canada — in arts, media, science, government, business, health and education.

8. Fixing Canada’s immigration system

Canada is stronger thanks to the skills and diversity new Canadians bring. With birth rates falling, immigration can help us build our 21st Century economy and keep our social programs strong.

9. Balanced budgets – like the one we wrote

Canada can invest to build the country we want — and balance the books every year doing it. We said we supported balanced budgets, and in the spring we wrote one that shows the NDP means it.

10. Creating and defending Canadian jobs

Canada can create jobs by expanding trade and by investing in ourselves. But after 12 years of Liberal government, we’re losing high-quality manufacturing jobs — while new jobs offer less pay, less security and weaker pensions.

11. Feeling safe in our communities

No Canadian should feel unsafe in their home or in their neighborhood.

12. Child care and child poverty

Our children’s early years are a foundation for lifelong success — or struggle. And we know that professional child care and early education offers kids a head-start.

13. Fairness for family farmers

Family farmers helped build this country and can help build its future. But after 12 years of Liberal government, our farms are in crisis.

14. Peacekeeping and defence

Canadians are proud of our peacekeeping role in the world. And when crises hit home — from forest fires to hurricanes — our military’s there when we need it.

There you go that is what the NDP belives in.

The problem is that they're a wolf in sheep's clothing.

No the problem is people like you mislabeling the party. The Fact is that while the NDP is by no means centrist they are by no means Socialist. They are a leftwing political party in the clothes of a left wing political party with left wing goals. So people amy not apreciate the left wing policies of the party but that does not make them socialist. They are primarily Social Democrats whose beliefs are clearly outlined in the above 14 key issues of the party.

[BubberMiley]

So by not acting as socialists, they are ineffectual?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By not following their Party Constitution, yes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would agree it makes your argument that they are a wolf in sheep's clothing ineffectual.

[Guest eureka]

Take you on, Monty! I never fight with lightweights. Not even those with quicker minds than your head seems to contain.

As for believing Black Dog, that does not enter the picture. I said that he provided more of the refutation of the asinine belief than I did. From what I have seen, I was destroying the obsessions of people like you before Balck Dog was born. He, however, seems to have the patience to lay it all out where I have no patience at all with revisionists.

We don't need another thread. Just look for the one where your laughable positions were blown away.

[scribblet]

The NDP has been in power for 6 years in Manitoba. They have not recommended or implemented one initiative that could remotely be considered socialist (except slight incremental increases in the minimum wage). More like a lamb in sheep's clothing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I remember correctly, the NDP in Ontario changed a number of labour laws which Harris rolled back and added a good one, notably mandatory votes for all certifications and collective agreement prior to all lawful strikes. I could be wrong but I think the McGuinty gov't is changing them back to give more power to the unions. One of the changes is the removal of the requirement that employers post information in their workplaces advising employees how to decertify their union, and elimination of the requirement for unions to publish name and salary information for union officials earning in excess of $100,000. These are provincial mind you, but I'm sure a federal NDP would do what they could to alter the balance.

They will increase immigration levels and amend current immigration laws, that currently bar most immigrants that would have been admitted during the Trudeau era. I take it this means they will allow in less qualified immigrants with fewer skills and training.

They will cancel NATO, 3rd world debt, increase foreign aid and triple AIDs funding among other things.

None of which will benefit Canada IMO.

[cybercoma]

Ok Slavik, so what you're saying is there are a bunch of political parties running around calling themselves socialists, even though they don't believe in socialism. I don't need to read hot air and propaganda about equality and freedoms for all, blah blah blah. There's not a single political party in the world that would out and say they are against those "ideals". People have been fighting for freedom and equality since man has walked this earth.

What's very real is the imbalance the NDP tries to impose in an attempt to cripple capitalism, which will in turn destroy this country and put countless people out of jobs. They are very much socialists and are even open to admit it. It says right in the party constitution that they're a socialist party, they belong to an international socialist organization and they skew labour laws towards unions. To argue that they're not, when clearly they say they are, and that Socialist International themselves are not socialist is just plain stupid.