2 Kinds of votes: Votes for or against the Gov

[slapshot10]

Everyone would agree that there are only two parties with a chance to form the next federal government, the Liberals or the Conservatives. This means voters should really understand that regardless of your personal political point of view your vote boils down to voting the Liberals back into power, or voting the liberals out of power. If your desire is to keep the Liberals in power then you may be surprised to find out that you can vote for any party other then the Conservatives.

It works like this. People who do not vote Liberal are saying the current government is not doing an adequate job and that it is time for a change. Now if a majority of the population wants a change in government but they all split their votes between 3 other parties, Conservative, NDP, and the Bloc, the Liberals will once again form the government. This vote splitting has been the real reason why Liberals have had such an easy time controlling the West, the Maritimes, and Quebec.

Well Quebec is a different story. It really is amazing how much control Quebec has in Ottawa. Why do you think that is? The answer is quite simple. They are unified when it comes to voting. In Quebec there are only two options in the people’s minds, Liberal, or Bloc. When they are fed up with the liberals, like our current situation, they vote Bloc. Oh sure there will be plenty voting for liberals too, but when you think about it, they too are either voting for the current government or against them. Only those voting for the government are voting to stay part of Canada, while the Bloc are about separating. But the point is those voting against the government are unified, and united they become powerful. This is not the case in the West or the Maritimes.

If people really want to change the government the only choice is to vote Conservative. Splitting votes with other parties will only give Liberals another default win with minority support of the population.

Therefore:

1) Voting NDP = voting for the government (Liberal).

2) Voting Liberal = voting for the government (Liberal).

3) Voting Bloc = voting for the government (Liberal).

4) Voting Conservative = Voting for a change in government

[JOVIAC]

You are exactly right! People think they are making prudent choices and voting without understanding that they are really just voting for the Liberals. We could learn from Quebec (and that's scary)

[justcrowing]

If people really want to change the government the only choice is to vote Conservative.  Splitting votes with other parties will only give Liberals another default win with minority support of the population. 

Therefore:

1)  Voting NDP = voting for the government (Liberal). 

2)  Voting Liberal = voting for the government (Liberal). 

3)  Voting Bloc = voting for the government (Liberal).

4)  Voting Conservative = Voting for a change in government

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As a newly elected council member of a large strata corporation, we voted out a management company that was not efficient to be replaced by a new one. Naturally, the old company has suddenly been making promises and pulling up their sox [sounds like the Liberals in their campaign. So, Yep, and that is what needs to be done with federal politics - turf the Liberals. My vote goes to the Conservatives [one who was never polled] because I want change and willing to give them a chance. I believe Harper, although not charismic, is far more honest than Martin or Layton. Heaven help us if we elect or P.M. on the basis of how much he smiles or waves his arms in the air rather than intellect ....

[Leader Circle]

  Heaven help us if we elect or P.M. on the basis of how much he smiles or waves his arms in the air rather than intellect .... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is what has been happening since Trudeaumania, except for Mulroney, who was voted in with the largest majority in Canadian politics, because Canadians were tired of Liberals.

[!!!]

If people really want to change the government the only choice is to vote Conservative. Splitting votes with other parties will only give Liberals another default win with minority support of the population.

I'd rather my party of choice get the $5 or whatever for my vote than cast a ballot for either the Libs or the Cons. At least then I'll be able to look at myself in the mirror.

[Shakeyhands]

this is a sad commentary. You CPC'rs are going to be sorely disappointed. The people here in Canada are a little smarter than that to be sure. How about voting for the party that best represents your ideals, and not voting based on the mistaken belief that someone needs to be punished. The CPC has some awfully backwards social policy and I can tell you that they'll never get control until they temper the radicals.

[daniel]

Actually it's either:

a vote for the NDP= a vote for the common people, the municipalities and for the environment;

a vote for the Liberals = a vote for the natural ruling party of Canada;

a vote for the Bloc = a vote for separation;

a vote for the Conservatives = a vote for the common sense revolution, Reaganonics, privatization, militarization, Americanization and further the rich-poor disparity.

Or:

a vote for the NDP= a vote to keep the Conservatives out of power

a vote for the Liberals = a vote to keep the Conservatives out of power;

a vote for the Bloc = a vote to keep the Conservatives out of power;

a vote for the Conservatives = a vote for the power hungry.

Take your pick.

[justcrowing]

Well we can look at this picture another way too.

A vote for Liberal - if you love being fleeced; power hungry party promising anything to stay in control; a controlling party that does not want change; a P.M. who will not do business in Canada because of the high taxation, pollution regulations, but on the same token does not mind getting cheap loans from Canada.

A vote for NDP - a population controlled by the government and unions - a mirror to communism]; investments fleeing out of the country; deficits; propping up the Liberals;cradle to grave welfare.

A vote for Conservatives - change; social order; better laws; honesty. a clean slate to begin with.

A vote for the Bloc - a vote for separation.

[JOVIAC]

this is a sad commentary.  You CPC'rs are going to be sorely disappointed.  The people here in Canada are a little smarter than that to be sure.  How about voting for the party that best represents your ideals, and not voting based on the mistaken belief that someone needs to be punished.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sad indeed... but the truth. Go ahead and keep voting for the party with your absolute ideals. Or maybe there isn't one because your absolute best ideals are not exactly represented so you create a new political party. Now you can have a clear conscious because you voted for everything that you believe in. However, the party which you don't trust or believe in still wins the election - because you diluted the votes. Another 4 years and the only message you have given the Liberals is keep running our Country without rules and consequence because people like you do not realise that the only time free people have any say in the operations of the government is by having the power to fire the leaders when they forget who they work for.

[slapshot10]

Sad indeed... but the truth.  Go ahead and keep voting for the party with your absolute ideals.  Or maybe there isn't one because your absolute best ideals are not exactly represented so you create a new political party.  Now you can have a clear conscious because you voted for everything that you believe in.  However, the party which you don't trust or believe in still wins the election - because you diluted the votes.  Another 4 years and the only message you have given the Liberals is keep running our Country without rules and consequence because people like you do not realise that the only time free people have any say in the operations of the government is by having the power to fire the leaders when they forget who they work for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really well said!

Wouldn't it be interesting if there was a way to ask a referendum question such as the following:

................................................................................

............................

Do you want the current governing party to continue on as the government?

[YES] Liberals should continue on as our government.

[NO] If no, choose which party you wish to form the next government:

A. Conservative

B. NDP

C. Bloc

................................................................................

..............................

This would require a majority of the population for any Government to retain power.

[Slim MacSquinty]

quote:

How about voting for the party that best represents your ideals, and not voting based on the mistaken belief that someone needs to be punished.

What if the party I wish to vote for also believes that someone needs to be punished, but wait that doesn't make my choice that much easier, cause everyone but the Liberals believe they should be punished.

Gee, this liberal logic thing is making my head hurt.

[justcrowing]

quote:

How about voting for the party that best represents your ideals, and not voting based on the mistaken belief that someone needs to be punished.

What if the party I wish to vote for also believes that someone needs to be punished, but wait that doesn't make my choice that much easier, cause everyone but the Liberals believe they should be punished.

Gee, this liberal logic thing is making my head hurt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well let's all vote to fill the Liberal trough to overflowing portions, and fatten them all up but then that would not be right or they might end up with too much fat and heart attacks and it would be a strain on our medical system and they would have to revert to the dreaded private system that is supposedly non-existent.

Hmm, let me see - we can spare the rod [punishment] and spoil the child [Liberals] that grows up [i think] to be arrogant and selfish.

Oh dear, decisions, decisions - Dr. Phil where are you when we need you?

[Rovik]

my take:

vote:

:angry: Liberals for corrupt govt. that continously breaks promises and pretends to be centre-left during elections but turns into a right leaning party after they win.

Conservatives for govt which is American like, pro business, pro war, whose easily swayed by religious groups (just like Bush's administration)

Bloc if you want two separate countries

NDP if you want a calming influence in a minority govt, that will help moderate govt. policies, protect public healthcare, push for attainable education, look out for the environment and be there for the average Canadian.

[err]

quote:

What if the party I wish to vote for also believes that someone needs to be punished,......

Like who... homosexuals, women (at least those who need/want abortions), people with children (who want daycare), or people who just want to smoke some good God-grown grass....

[Slavik44]

You are exactly right!  People think they are making prudent choices and voting without understanding that they are really just voting for the Liberals.  We could learn from Quebec (and that's scary)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Listen to put it blunty you are wrong, your playing with words and the end result is a load of bullshit. When I vote I will not vote for the incompetent conservatives or the corrupt liberals the fact is I have more of a choice than between those two parties. In the end my goal is two pronged, It is to send a message to both the CPC and the Liberals that they are not doing enough and to vote for a party that might possible hold the balance of power (might be unlikely). In the end every political party has different views. In the end the enemy of my enemy is not always my friend he could just as well be another enemy. What is prudent is to vote, when you vote you are making a prudent choice, but to suggest the choice is only between two parties is not prudent that suggestion is absurd.

Everyone would agree that there are only two parties with a chance to form the next federal government, the Liberals or the Conservatives. This means voters should really understand that regardless of your personal political point of view your vote boils down to voting the Liberals back into power, or voting the liberals out of power. If your desire is to keep the Liberals in power then you may be surprised to find out that you can vote for any party other then the Conservatives.

Bullshit, while there are only two parties that could ultimately win, this does not devalue the other parties and their input into the political process. I also find it Ironic that the you are undoubtedly a supporter of the CPC. What about back when there was a reform, PC, Liberal, NDP, and Block party. Should we have voted for the Liberals because they were the only party who stood a chance to win the election? In 1933 would you have suggested that we should only vote for the NAZIS because the Communists and social democrats were technically banned and the Nazis were the only party able to form government???? The fact is my vote doesn't need to vote for who might or might not be the governing party I am more than happy to vote for an opposition party with no chance at gaining power, simply because I don't view the Liberals any better than I view the Conservatives.

It works like this. People who do not vote Liberal are saying the current government is not doing an adequate job and that it is time for a change. Now if a majority of the population wants a change in government but they all split their votes between 3 other parties, Conservative, NDP, and the Bloc, the Liberals will once again form the government. This vote splitting has been the real reason why Liberals have had such an easy time controlling the West, the Maritimes, and Quebec.

No it goes like this I look at the parties platform, I say yeah I like that, that, and that, not so big on that, but hey that looks cool, and this is a good idea, and they have a good record here, and support for this, so I will support them. It is asking for change, but it is a discriminitory change. In other words change is not enough, that change must come with certain conditions. If there is change but that change is not in favour of my views the change is pointless. Besides that people do not vote totaly on an approval based method, in fact it is more likely a policy or percieved policy based method. With corruption being the number one issue for only 12% of the electorate we can assume that the number one reason for voting is not wholy or even mostly approval based. So there is a fundemental flaw in your assumptions.

Well Quebec is a different story. It really is amazing how much control Quebec has in Ottawa. Why do you think that is? The answer is quite simple. They are unified when it comes to voting. In Quebec there are only two options in the people’s minds, Liberal, or Bloc. When they are fed up with the liberals, like our current situation, they vote Bloc. Oh sure there will be plenty voting for liberals too, but when you think about it, they too are either voting for the current government or against them. Only those voting for the government are voting to stay part of Canada, while the Bloc are about separating. But the point is those voting against the government are unified, and united they become powerful. This is not the case in the West or the Maritimes.

Nope probabley about 15-20% of quebec will not vote Bloc or Liberal, so that is not entirely united. In quebec your may have more of a point that a larger portion of the population will vote on an approval based rating. However the fundemental fact remains that the Bloc stands no chance at forming a government...so by your claims we should not vote for them and still many people who vote bloc will do so because they are speratists and first and foremost the party represents their beliefs.

If people really want to change the government the only choice is to vote Conservative. Splitting votes with other parties will only give Liberals another default win with minority support of the population.

You are again mistaken in your assumption about the Canadian voter, you have come into this assuming that what people ultimately want is change. When infact what people are more likely to want is to vote for a party that represents them, to vote for a belief, an ideal, a policy, a system, or a vision that they want carried out. Change is a bi-product of a heavy accumulation of votes endorsing a certain vision.

Therefore:

1) Voting NDP = voting for the government (Liberal).

2) Voting Liberal = voting for the government (Liberal).

3) Voting Bloc = voting for the government (Liberal).

4) Voting Conservative = Voting for a change in government

It is funy that now we have Conservatives using rehashed half baked liberal claims, I mean last election a vote for the NDP was a vote for the conservatives. Infact the problem last election was no one possibley could know who they were voting for because it was a maze... I voted for the rhino party, which is a vote for the marijauni party, which is a vote against the conservatives but for the NDP, which is a vote against the liberals and for the conservatives, which becomes a vote for the bloc. It was absurd and people like you perertuate this situation with your crazy theories about what a vote is for, I will tell you what a vote is, it is an endorsement of a paticular belief, policy, ideal, or vision. Anything beyond that is nothing more than an externality.

In truth

A vote for the NDP = a vote for the NDP and their policies

A vote for the Liberals = a vote for the Liberals and their policies

A vote for the bloc = a vote for the bloc and their policies

A vote for the conservatives = a vote for the conservatives and their policies

[Vancouver King]

[in truth

A vote for the NDP = a vote for the NDP and their policies

A vote for the Liberals = a vote for the Liberals and their policies

A vote for the bloc = a vote for the bloc and their policies

A vote for the conservatives = a vote for the conservatives and their policies

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

-------------------------------------------

Except, of course, when voting strategically makes sense. The CPC candidate in my constituency has next to zero chance of winning. My highest priority is to punish the corrupt Libs, therefore I will vote NDP to block the incumbent Grit.

See, there's other ways to rationalize your vote.

[willy]

Votes are now worth money. So vote the way you want your money to go as well.

[Vancouver King]

Votes are now worth money. So vote the way you want your money to go as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, some guy offered his vote for sale by posting it on EBay. Elections Canada intervened with the web site and explained the sellers intentions violated the Elections Act. I think the bidding reached $20.

[!!!]

Funny thing is neither the Liberals or Cons have expressed any interest in meaningful electoral reform which would end strategic voting like the kind proposed off the top of this thread.. That's because these parties both benefit immensely from the flaws in the current system, such as the concentration of support in specific regions. So really, a vote for either party is a vote for the same old same old.

[slapshot10]

In the end my goal is two pronged, It is to send a message to both the CPC and the Liberals that they are not doing enough

The only message that will be sent to Ottawa if the Liberals win will be go ahead and continue breaking the rules, go ahead and continue padding your own pockets and those of your close friends, go ahead and continue showing your complete arrogance to the Canadian tax payers.

I could only imagine the laughing the liberal cabinet would be doing at the Canadian voters after their win. "We stole, we got caught, and we got put back into power. Since we didn't have to repay the millions of dollars or become accountable for our crimes we may as well continue padding our pockets. Apparently we are above the law".

Do you think this message will help clean up our governing system? Are these really the people you want running our Country?

to suggest the choice is only between two parties is not prudent that suggestion is absurd.

With only 2 parties which can realistically form the government, it is a fact that those who wish to change the government must vote Conservative.

The message I want to send... not just to the Liberals but to all parties... is this: Canada is a great democratic country run by the people who elect leaders to follow our mandates. When you forget who you work for, and when you forget to follow our criminal codes, then get out!"

If we truly want to clean up Parliament, this Liberal party must be forced to take a back seat.

[JOVIAC]

Wouldn't it be interesting if there was a way to ask a referendum question such as the following:

................................................................................

............................

Do you want the current governing party to continue on as the government?

[YES]  Liberals should continue on as our government.

[NO]  If no, choose which party you wish to form the next government:

            A. Conservative

            B. NDP

            C. Bloc

................................................................................

..............................

This would require a majority of the population for any Government to retain power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is really interesting. A Federal vote which first asks if we want to retain the government. In a scenario like this a government would really have to be doing a great job to retain power.

Not that it would ever happen... but an interesting thought provoking idea.

[JOVIAC]

In truth

A vote for the NDP = a vote for the NDP and their policies

A vote for the Liberals = a vote for the Liberals and their policies

A vote for the bloc = a vote for the bloc and their policies

A vote for the conservatives = a vote for the conservatives and their policies

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I will not disagree with voting for a party and their policies. (Although many people get caught up voting for a single personality within a party)

The main point of this discussion is how does one use their vote to influence change. Those who are interested in changing the governing party, changing how politicians treat the population, changing the corruption in politics, or changing other political calamities should understand a vote for any other party other then Conservatives will result in a Liberal government. This will equal no change.

If you understand this and this is your voting desire... follow the party platforms to make your vote and feel good about further scandals.

[!!!]

I'm not wholly convinced a Conservative government will amount to a change in anything but the name of the gang in charge.

[justcrowing]

The Conservatives are a new party and have moved much to the middle and that is a positive move. They are entering on a clean slate and would need several terms in office in order to perfect corruption Liberal style. Because of the merger of two parties, each faction will keep checks and balances on the other and come up with an acceptable medium. They have come up with some very good policies. The other thing I like is Harper is an Accountant and not a lawyer nor is he wealthy. He is young, energetic and a far cry from the tired old men we have had in the several elections as P.M.'s.

Liberals swayed from the middle line to the left in order to obtain support from the far left, NDP & draw away votes from them. They have not kept promises after they became elected. So they brought down the debt but at what expense? Gutting social programs, raising taxes, cutting benefits from the disabled, corruption, mismanagement and the list is tenfold. They are not for change and have proven that. They have driven a wedge between Quebec and the rest of Canada as well as the U.S and I forgot to mention the West. Sure the U.S. has been less than honorable in their dealings however, a friendlier attitude on the part of our Prime Ministers may well have had disputes settled long time ago rather than it remain like a festering cancer.

As for NDP, well if you want a Marxist government, there is a price to pay. What they did to Ontario and B.C. provincially, no way would I want that for Canada. Sure you may get to grow and smoke your marijuana, collect a big welfare check, be taxed to the max, but at what expense? When I see Layton and his Olivia, I see what is said in an ad on TV "hands in your pocket". Thanks but no thanks.

I will give the Conservatives my vote and a chance to govern hopefully with a small majority [to keep them on their toes] in order to give them a chance to implement their policies. A term is not the end of the earth so given that, they have my vote as we need change.

[!!!]

Hold on their cowboy. One second you're all:

Liberals swayed from the middle line to the left in order to obtain support from the far left, NDP & draw away votes from them.

And the next you're all, like:

So they brought down the debt but at what expense? Gutting social programs, raising taxes, cutting benefits from the disabled, corruption, mismanagement and the list is tenfold.

So which is it?