Sexual Assault in Toronto

[August1991]

The students, including two females, were charged after a 16-year-old girl reported she had been sexually assaulted and harassed on school grounds for more than a year.

Toronto Star

This case bothers me for several reasons.

From what I understand, a 16 year old girl, a recent immigrant who is white, was bullied, sexually assaulted (raped?) for 16 months in a high school in Toronto by 14 black boys. The 14 have now been charged with "sexual assault" or "aggravated sexual assault". In addition, 2 black girls have been charged also, for assisting in the "rapes" somehow. In addition, I understand that some of the mothers of the accused 14 boys have said that racism is at root of the charges. I have read that the boys were black basketball players, and the publicity will compromise college scholarships.

If I understand properly, school cameras on one occasion filmed black boys dragging her into a staff washroom. On another occasion, the girl was about to be assaulted in a fast-food resto washroom when an employee stopped the assault. IOW, a fast-food restaurant provides better safety than a public school. (The school was a publicly-financed Catholic school.)

1. I am bothered that I don't know what is going on.

2. I am bothered that journalists seem afraid to use the word race but some mothers are not.

3. I am bothered that no one seems concerned about the situation of this 16 year old girl. She did absolutely nothing wrong.

4. I am bothered about these terms "sexual assault" and "aggravated sexual assault". In plain language, what is meant?

5. I am bothered about the Canada that exists, and for its future.

----

Such is English Canada. I thought I wrote this post carefully but I return to edit. I changed "black guys" to "black boys" since I referred to a "white girl".

Am I wrong to say that I heard the mothers were from Jamaica but news reports said nothing about the accused boys' fathers?

[Riverwind]

From what I understand, a 16 year old girl, a recent immigrant who is white, was bullied, sexually assaulted (raped?) for 16 months in a high school in Toronto by 14 black boys.

The media reports I heard never mentioned the race of the victim - your post was the first I here she was white. The only way I knew the perpetrators where blacks from Jamaica because I saw a mother of one of the accussed on television and could tell from her accent. The report did not actually mention he was black or from Jamaica

4. I am bothered about these terms "sexual assault" and "aggravated sexual assault".  In plain language, what is meant?

I agree - these terms are supposed to allow woman to avoid the stigma of being labelled rape victims, however, I feel they do the reverse by trivializing the offense.

Am I wrong to say that I heard the mothers were from Jamaica but news reports said nothing about the accused boys' fathers?

This event is only one of a long list high profile crimes associated with the black community in toronto - specifically the Jamaican black community. If we had any sense we would ban further immigration from Jamaica until these problems can be resolved.

[err]

From what I understand, a 16 year old girl, a recent immigrant who is white, was bullied, sexually assaulted (raped?) for 16 months in a high school in Toronto by 14 black boys.

The media reports I heard never mentioned the race of the victim - your post was the first I here she was white. The only way I knew the perpetrators where blacks from Jamaica because I saw a mother of one of the accussed on television and could tell from her accent. The report did not actually mention he was black or from Jamaica

Yes she is white.

4. I am bothered about these terms "sexual assault" and "aggravated sexual assault".  In plain language, what is meant?

I agree - these terms are supposed to allow woman to avoid the stigma of being labelled rape victims, however, I feel they do the reverse by trivializing the offense.

Agreed, but you also have to look at the legal implications of broadcasting details wrt the perpetrators right to a "fair trial".... because we don't want a technicality to get them off "if they are guilty", as it appears they are...

Am I wrong to say that I heard the mothers were from Jamaica but news reports said nothing about the accused boys' fathers?

This event is only one of a long list high profile crimes associated with the black community in toronto - specifically the Jamaican black community. If we had any sense we would ban further immigration from Jamaica until these problems can be resolved.

I don't know that I can really say that (publicly anyways)... But what we can say is that the laws of the land must be upheld much better than they obviously have been.... Where the hell are the teachers and support staff that this could continue on...

And then there's the big Liberal reaction... pumping $23 Million to fix the problem... I have to agree with Howard Hampton... That won't buy a pop machine for each school.... What they need is to hire back some of the councillors and support staff that were untimely ripped from the school system by Mike Harris's wonderful "school reforms"....

[August1991]

I don't know that I can really say that (publicly anyways)... But what we can say is that the laws of the land must be upheld much better than they obviously have been.... Where the hell are the teachers and support staff that this could continue on...

I don't know that I can really say that (publicly anyways)... err, are you afraid to say publicly what you think?

On the Internet, I can understand - sort of. I hope you are not afraid to say what you think to your personal friends. Or, are you careful with them too? (err, everything is recorded nowadays and it may come to haunt you... )

What they need is to hire back some of the councillors and support staff that were untimely ripped from the school system by Mike Harris's wonderful "school reforms"....

Uh, is this all the fault of Mike Harris and the Conservatives? Is Stephen Harper to blame too?

----

What Canada do we all live in? A Canada where people are afraid to say what they think?

[kimmy]

I earlier made mention of this in the thread where people were lamenting that Edmonton and Calgary aren't sophisticated and urbane like Toronto.

I have gathered, from coverage of the angry mothers, that some of them were Jamaican, but I have not heard that all of them were.

I'm surprised that Sparhawk hadn't heard that the victim was white, since the parents have made it an issue.

The article I linked to last week made mention of that point.

Despite reports from students that the accused are innocent and have been unfairly targeted because they are black and the girl is white, Insp. Tom McIlhone told reporters that race played no part in the arrests.

A question I haven't heard anyone ask: was the alleged crime racially motivated? It's a question everybody asks when white people are on the attacking end and non-white people are victims. I haven't heard anybody ask it when the situation is reversed. Is the question irrelevant, or are people just afraid to ask, or are they afraid of what the answer might be?

I saw coverage following the arraignment hearing on CBC and CTV. There seemed to be a palpable anger. The black people interviewed all seemed to be of the belief that the boys were innocent, the girl is a liar or a nut, the police are racists, the arrests were illegal. I have read message board posts from people who believe that this is all a sham being perpetrated to get the boys into "the system" or to get them out of that school.

Judging by the feelings of the people I saw on TV, this will become a very heated issue before it is over. I wonder, if there are convictions, if there is potential for rioting as we've seen in the US following controversial trials where race was at issue.

-k

[Guest eureka]

Why do you spoil a thoughtful post with "such is English Canada," August? This subject goes to many of the problems in society. It goes to the damage Harris did to Ontario Schools, as err writes, and to the marginalization of Black youth in society. There are many other facets that could be brought in.

Kimmy, your response went close to the heart of this. We should not rush to judgement in this. On the face of it, everything seems clear yet there are some disturbing suggestions of racism and morality. Some of the girls at the school, white and black, apparently support the alleged bullies. Someone has said that the "victim" was not an unwilling participant in the acts and that she offered sexual favours to others.

[Riverwind]

I have read message board posts from people who believe that this is all a sham being perpetrated to get the boys into "the system" or to get them out of that school.

It is possible that the girl is lying or fabricating the story to get attention or avoid trouble. It would not be the first time a teenager has done this (nor likely the last). There was a recent case in Vancouver where a Sikh teenager cut off his hair and turban and told his parents he was attacked by a bunch of white teens. He later retracted his story but only after several days of wall-to-wall media coverage about the scourge of racism in our society.

That said, you cannot take the protestations of innocence on the part of the families as gospel either. There does appear to be corroborating evidence that something strange was going on which August mentioned. It is quite possible the boys believe they did nothing wrong because they can't comprehend the concept of "no means no". If this is the case then we have big trouble on their hands because the people in the Jamaican community will likely prefer to play the victim than to acknowledge that these boys stepped over the line between consentual sex and sexual assault.

[PocketRocket]

Okay. This is first exposure to this story, so I'll have to take the word of everyone who has seen other versions of this story that the boys were black, because that is not mentioned in the TS article AUGUST1991 linked to. (Although I found later it IS mentioned in KIMMY'S link. Thanks to you both)

From what I understand, a 16 year old girl, a recent immigrant who is white, was bullied, sexually assaulted (raped?) for 16 months in a high school in Toronto by 14 black boys.  The 14 have now been charged with "sexual assault" or "aggravated sexual assault".  In addition, 2 black girls have been charged also, for assisting in the "rapes" somehow.  In addition, I understand that some of the mothers of the accused 14 boys have said that racism is at root of the charges. I have read that the boys were black basketball players, and the publicity will compromise college scholarships.

What bothers me is the "Sexual Assault" label. It can mean anything from full-penetration rape to copping an unwelcome feel.

"Sexual assault" is like a blanket charge. It covers EVERYTHING that could possibly be construed as having sexual intent.

You can get charged for rubbing someone's shoulders, for God's sake.

Something needs to be done about that so that someone who grabs a girl's ass in an elevator is not subjected to the same penalties, or the same stigma, as someone who has actually committed rape.

If I understand properly, school cameras on one occasion filmed black boys dragging her into a staff washroom.  On another occasion, the girl was about to be assaulted in a fast-food resto washroom when an employee stopped the assault. IOW, a fast-food restaurant provides better safety than a public school.  (The school was a publicly-financed Catholic school.)

Again, I would like to know what form this "assault" took.

As for the staff washroom, gotta say the kids got brass.

1. I am bothered that I don't know what is going on.

2. I am bothered that journalists seem afraid to use the word race but some mothers are not.

3. I am bothered that no one seems concerned about the situation of this 16 year old girl.  She did absolutely nothing wrong.

4. I am bothered about these terms "sexual assault" and "aggravated sexual assault".  In plain language, what is meant?

5. I am bothered about the Canada that exists, and for its future.

1) You and me both

2) For a minority person, using the word "race" is a great way to get headlines and sympathy.

In some cases it's almost like a minority complex (pun not intended), and any time something happens to them, they feel it's because of racial persecution. I've come up against this a few times in my 15 years on the road. It ain't pretty.

3) Evidently someone is concerned, or the alleged offenders would not have been arrested.

4) See reply above

5) Hmmm. You'd have to be more specific on this one.

From KIMMY'S post:

I'm surprised that Sparhawk hadn't heard that the victim was white, since the parents have made it an issue.

The article I linked to last week made mention of that point.

It also held this quote......

"I never knew that anything like this is going on. I'm like totally in shock," said the 31-year-old woman, who is also related to one of the girls charged. "There's no question in my heart that this is totally false. My son has had nothing to do with this."

Hmmmm. A 31-year-old mother of a 16-year-old, who, like, talks totally like a valley girl, like, especially, like, when she's totally, like, in shock.

What do you expect, Mom??? You think your kid is going to come home after school and say "I did math, science, remedial reading, and, oh yeah, I sexually assaulted one of my classmates in the stairwell".

And the reply, "That's, like, nice dear, like, totally awesome."

Uh-huh.

Let's see now, my son doesn't tell me he's committing crime, so he just CAN'T be committing crime.

Turn off the soap-operas, Mom, real life ain't like that.

Maybe if she was concentrating on her own schoolwork instead of popping out kids at 15 years of age, she'd be better equipped to handle parenthood, because it does seem she's the parent of a hood.

[Argus]

2. I am bothered that journalists seem afraid to use the word race but some mothers are not.

3. I am bothered that no one seems concerned about the situation of this 16 year old girl.  She did absolutely nothing wrong.

4. I am bothered about these terms "sexual assault" and "aggravated sexual assault".  In plain language, what is meant?

I came across something related to this in my surfing this morning and, not certain where to post it but wishing to discuss it, put it into the moral and religious group. Among the questions it raises is how the media and the authorities go out of their way to dodge any accusation of racism as a motivating factor EXCEPT when the perpetrator is White. Imagine if 16 Whites had assaulted 1 minority. Would there not be speculation by every news organization that the crime was racially motivated? Would the police not be discussing the possibility? Would social organizations not be using the incident to decry racism in our society?

A similar situation exists in Ottawa today, btw, where some 15 "youths" are sought in the swarming of a man who has been in a coma since the incident. The victim is White, the apparent perpetrators are Black (somalian). No one has suggested race as even a contributing factor.

In fact, both cases are rare in that race is even publicly known. In the Toronto case it's only mentioned by the press because the relatives of those arrested began immediately srcreaming that they are the victims of racism. In the Ottawa case it only arose, in my case, because a local talk radio station mentioned it, and one of those so far arrested is 18 (which allows us to hear his very obviously foreign name).

A related thought on this is that the girl is being treated poorly because she did not act as a true, strong-hearted, stern willed, confident Canadian girl ought, which is to slug the guy and immediately go to police, teachers, social workers, etc. I suspect some of those in media and on the left lack sympathy for her because she put up with it for so long (sneers of contempt at her weakness evident in some conversations). But if she is a recent immigrant - which I had not heard - that could explain, for cultural factors might have made her too embarrassed, and less likely to know that going to authorities was expected and accepted.

As has been mentioned, the term "sexual assault" can mean anything from copping a feel to full-blown gang rape. Howecer, the term "aggravated sexual assault" is less ambiguous.

273(1) Aggravated sexual assault - Every one commits an aggravated sexual assault who, in committing a sexual assault, wounds, maims, disfigures or endangers the life of the complainant.

This would seem to preclude this being merely youthful groping.

[

QUOTE]Am I wrong to say that I heard the mothers were from Jamaica but news reports said nothing about the accused boys' fathers?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unknown, in all likelihood. The incidence of single motherhood among Jamaican women is stratospheric.

[tml12]

The students, including two females, were charged after a 16-year-old girl reported she had been sexually assaulted and harassed on school grounds for more than a year.

Toronto Star

This case bothers me for several reasons.

From what I understand, a 16 year old girl, a recent immigrant who is white, was bullied, sexually assaulted (raped?) for 16 months in a high school in Toronto by 14 black boys. The 14 have now been charged with "sexual assault" or "aggravated sexual assault". In addition, 2 black girls have been charged also, for assisting in the "rapes" somehow. In addition, I understand that some of the mothers of the accused 14 boys have said that racism is at root of the charges. I have read that the boys were black basketball players, and the publicity will compromise college scholarships.

If I understand properly, school cameras on one occasion filmed black boys dragging her into a staff washroom. On another occasion, the girl was about to be assaulted in a fast-food resto washroom when an employee stopped the assault. IOW, a fast-food restaurant provides better safety than a public school. (The school was a publicly-financed Catholic school.)

1. I am bothered that I don't know what is going on.

2. I am bothered that journalists seem afraid to use the word race but some mothers are not.

3. I am bothered that no one seems concerned about the situation of this 16 year old girl. She did absolutely nothing wrong.

4. I am bothered about these terms "sexual assault" and "aggravated sexual assault". In plain language, what is meant?

5. I am bothered about the Canada that exists, and for its future.

----

Such is English Canada. I thought I wrote this post carefully but I return to edit. I changed "black guys" to "black boys" since I referred to a "white girl".

Am I wrong to say that I heard the mothers were from Jamaica but news reports said nothing about the accused boys' fathers?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Such is the case in our society.

[kimmy]

Kimmy, your response went close to the heart of this.

Of course it did.

We should not rush to judgement in this.

Of course not.

On the face of it, everything seems clear yet there are some disturbing suggestions of racism and morality.

Of course there are. Everytime somebody who isn't white is charged with a crime, they complain that they've been unfairly accused because "the system" is racist.

That said, do you honestly believe that a police department that's been in hot water over racial issues in the recent past would use anything but the utmost discretion in handling something like this?

Some of the girls at the school, white and black, apparently support the alleged bullies. Someone has said that the "victim" was not an unwilling participant in the acts and that she offered sexual favours to others.

Of course they did. Accusations of this nature are always made towards complainants in rape cases.

-k

[err]

I don't know that I can really say that (publicly anyways)... But what we can say is that the laws of the land must be upheld much better than they obviously have been.... Where the hell are the teachers and support staff that this could continue on...

I don't know that I can really say that (publicly anyways)... err, are you afraid to say publicly what you think?

I meant to say "I don't think that we can say that". Our country, or at least the majority of it, is proud to say that Canada is tolerant, and does not discriminate based on race... The knee-jerk reaction might be to "kick them out" or "don't let them in", but we would be hypocritical to take this point of view and, at the same time boast about our distain for discrimantion....

What they need is to hire back some of the councillors and support staff that were untimely ripped from the school system by Mike Harris's wonderful "school reforms"....

Uh, is this all the fault of Mike Harris and the Conservatives? Is Stephen Harper to blame too?

It can be traced directly to Mike Harris and his definition of "common sense"....

Mike Harris promised "Not one penny from classroom education"... and then found that he needed some of this money for his big tax return. So he proceeded to vilify the teachers and school system... Spending a fortune on a new "standardized test" that was intended to make our schools look bad... So then he had to break his word and "reform" our school system.... And the first years reforms consisted of removing a half of a billion dollars from the school system's budget.... and no other reforms... So the schools had to lay off a large percentage of support staff.... directly because of Mike Harris's actions.

But my distain is not limited to the Ontario Conservatives.... The Ontario Liberals are Conservatives in sheeps clothing, and haven't rectified any of the damage inflicted by Mike Harris and the Conservative Party.

What Canada do we all live in?

The one just nort of the USA... Not that it is North of the USA, and does not have overlapping boundaries.....

[scribblet]

Oh sure, blame it on Mike Harris, next it will be Bush's fault too. How about laying the blame where it really belongs; on those who committed the crime, the lack of moral and ethical values obviously not taught at home. The parents have shown no empathy towards the victim, the first thing out of their mouths is 'racism', then demanding the Principal resign. A sad commentary on the mind set of the families. Shades of Bonfire of the Vanities, I bet Little Johnny was a school star, a stellar wunderkid and all that, watch the stories grow.

I saw a report just after this about two students from the same school dying of fumes in the garaged car. The spokesperson for the Board says it was not suicide and not related to the sexual assaults. Has anyone heard anything else about this, it seems to me that there is a bit of a cover up here.

[Argus]

But my distain is not limited to the Ontario Conservatives.... The Ontario Liberals are Conservatives in sheeps clothing, and haven't rectified any of the damage inflicted by Mike Harris and the Conservative Party.

You've said the same about the federal Liberals. Is there anyone you don't think is conservative? I mean, short of Fidel Castro?

[err]

Oh sure, blame it on Mike Harris, next it will be Bush's fault too.  How about laying the blame where it really belongs; on those who committed the crime, the lack of moral and ethical values obviously not taught at home. 

If you read the previous posts, you might have discovered that the topic of "not having adequate support staff, like councillers" was brought up, and that I linked this directly to Mike Harris. I never suggested that Mike Harris had anything to do with molesting the girl, or directly encouraging it.

However, Mike Harris's actions can be directly linked to the removal of many of the safegaurds that could have prevented or put an early stop to the ongoing criminal behaviour of some of the students.

Suggesting that Mike Harris's (and the Conservative party's) cuts to the school system have nothing to do with the situation in schools is akin to denying that the decimation of a police force in a community has anything correlation with a resultin escaltion of crime in the same community.

[err]

But my distain is not limited to the Ontario Conservatives.... The Ontario Liberals are Conservatives in sheeps clothing, and haven't rectified any of the damage inflicted by Mike Harris and the Conservative Party.

You've said the same about the federal Liberals. Is there anyone you don't think is conservative? I mean, short of Fidel Castro?

We seem to have three main choices:

Extreme Right Wing: - the CPC Party

Conservative: - the Liberal Party (using the Mulroney/pre-Mulroney definition of Conservative)

Non-Conservative: - the NDP

In my view, there's only one choice.....

[tml12]

But my distain is not limited to the Ontario Conservatives.... The Ontario Liberals are Conservatives in sheeps clothing, and haven't rectified any of the damage inflicted by Mike Harris and the Conservative Party.

You've said the same about the federal Liberals. Is there anyone you don't think is conservative? I mean, short of Fidel Castro?

We seem to have three main choices:

Extreme Right Wing: - the CPC Party

Conservative: - the Liberal Party (using the Mulroney/pre-Mulroney definition of Conservative)

Non-Conservative: - the NDP

In my view, there's only one choice.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, err you really look at the political spectrum from a completely extreme left point of view.

The Conservative Party is, according to their convention here in March, pro-choice and pro-universal health care. How can they be extremely right-wing if they encompass these views?

Similarly, the Liberal Party of social liberalism and economic centrist is more libertarian than conservative.

Those of us who are regulars on this forum understand you are an NDP voter but seriously, at least get the facts right.

[err]

Ah, err you really look at the political spectrum from a completely extreme left point of view.

The Conservative Party is, according to their convention here in March, pro-choice and pro-universal health care.  How can they be extremely right-wing if they encompass these views?

That wasn't what they were saying last year before they put on grandma's dressing gown to try to catch up with Liberal Red Riding Hood.... On either health care or abortions....

Similarly, the Liberal Party of social liberalism and economic centrist is more libertarian than conservative.

Paul Martin outdid even Brian Mulroney for slashing program funding and giving the money to Corp Canada. He was far more Conservative than Joe Clark too... He's only in the centre if you've moved the right way further to the right and reframed the picture... Which is exactly what I expect you've done...

Those of us who are regulars on this forum understand you are an NDP voter but seriously, at least get the facts right.

And I suppose I could just as well ask you to accept the facts..... rather than re-shape them to fit your target picture...

[kimmy]

The word "Extreme" is extremely overused. Once it meant "of the greatest severity; drastic", "being in or attaining the greatest or highest degree."

At some point, the word "Extreme" was applied to daredevil sports, like people who ride bikes off huge ramps, skateboard in half-pipes, or fly their snowboards off cliffs.

And about 5 minutes after that, the word "Extreme" was stolen by commercial interests to target marketting towards kids who only wish they were daredevil athletes who could fly snowboards off cliffs. The word "extreme" was applied to nachos, soft-drinks, computer toys and games, and all sorts of other products that are not actually extreme in the least. Here in Edmonton, you can go down to "Extreme Pita" to buy a pita-wrap. "Extreme Pita"? Huh? Pita is flatbread. It's bland, colourless, flavorless, it's not even leavened. From where I sit, flatbread is pretty much the exact opposite of extreme.

I mention all of this as background in addressing the description of the Conservative Party of Canada as "extreme right wing". Is the CPC extreme? They're about as extreme as junkfood, computer parts, and flatbread.

At any rate, let's get this thread back on topic. I believe Mike Harris got dragged into this because of the suggestion that more school counsellors could have prevented something like this from happening.

Does that seem realistic? Not to me. I call "bullshit!" on that.

Would the alleged victim have been more assertive if there had been more counsellors at the school? The first report (link can be found earlier in this thread) indicates that the victim did not come forward sooner because of fear of reprisal. And several of the criminal charges laid do in fact have to do with threats. I doubt she'd have felt safer talking about it whether there was one or two or 100 counsellors at the school. She was scared of what might happened to her if she told on the bullies.

Would the alleged assailants have been kinder or gentler if there had been more counsellors at the school? Pfff. Haha. HAHAHAHAA. Suuuure they would. Tough guys just looove going to the counsellor to talk about feelings. They looove to share.

-k

[err]

At any rate, let's get this thread back on topic.  I believe Mike Harris got dragged into this because of the suggestion that more school counsellors could have prevented something like this from happening.

Does that seem realistic?  Not to me. I call "bullshit!" on that.

The video camera that caught her being dragged into a stairwell... do you think maybe it might have made a difference if there was anyone to perform a "security" function at a school that's obviously crying for it ????

Obviously, you share Mike Harris's opinion that tax breaks are more important. It's more important that the tax dollars go to good decent folk with nice houses than being spent on the low-life scum in the poorer schools... It's just too bad this kind of stuff makes it onto the news, isn't it ??? Now we'll have to waste more taxpayers money on making sure the schools are "safe"....

Throwing money at them won't help, will it. ???? Do we have any more good Conservative catch phrases to try to distance the Conservatives from the direct consequences of their policies ???

And with all your wisdom, could you enlighten us to how you can be sure that this girl (or one of her friends) might not have talked to a councillor had the school not laid them off. Kimmy, you sure must be really really smart to know all these things that nobody else knows..

Would the alleged victim have been more assertive if there had been more counsellors at the school? 

Would it be more likeley that you'd call the cops (councillors) if there were some cops (councillors) to call ??? We'll never know... maybe "market forces" will tell us later....

Would the alleged assailants have been kinder or gentler if there had been more counsellors at the school?  Pfff. Haha.  HAHAHAHAA. Suuuure they would.  Tough guys just looove going to the counsellor to talk about feelings. They looove to share.

Supposing those councillors called the police.... or is that only a ridiculous impractical "lefty" thing that no good red-blooded councillor would do....

[Argus]

Does that seem realistic?  Not to me. I call "bullshit!" on that.

The video camera that caught her being dragged into a stairwell... do you think maybe it might have made a difference if there was anyone to perform a "security" function at a school that's obviously crying for it ????

I could be wrong (it happens) but I don't beliee such cameras have ever been monitored. Nor do I believe that, in the abscence of more regular crime in the halls, they would likely be monitored even if the school had considerably more money. Had they had more money it would have been spent on councillors, teachers, nicer computers, a big screen tv for the teachers lounge - but certainly not on hiring a cop or security guard to sit in a room and watch video of kids wandering in the hallways.

Throwing money at them won't help, will it. ????  Do we have any more good Conservative catch phrases to try to distance the Conservatives from the direct consequences of their policies ???

Yes, wasting money doesn't help anyone.

[kimmy]

At any rate, let's get this thread back on topic.  I believe Mike Harris got dragged into this because of the suggestion that more school counsellors could have prevented something like this from happening.

Does that seem realistic?  Not to me. I call "bullshit!" on that.

The video camera that caught her being dragged into a stairwell... do you think maybe it might have made a difference if there was anyone to perform a "security" function at a school that's obviously crying for it ????

Obviously, you share Mike Harris's opinion that tax breaks are more important. It's more important that the tax dollars go to good decent folk with nice houses than being spent on the low-life scum in the poorer schools... It's just too bad this kind of stuff makes it onto the news, isn't it ??? Now we'll have to waste more taxpayers money on making sure the schools are "safe"....

Throwing money at them won't help, will it. ???? Do we have any more good Conservative catch phrases to try to distance the Conservatives from the direct consequences of their policies ???

Now that you've got that out of your system, let's get down to business.

And with all your wisdom, could you enlighten us to how you can be sure that this girl (or one of her friends) might not have talked to a councillor had the school not laid them off.  Kimmy, you sure must be really really smart to know all these things that nobody else knows..

Thanks for noticing.

As the original article mentioned, fear of reprisal maintained the silence. Amongst the coverage of this event, I have read that there was an element at the school that simply did not respect the authority of the administration and teachers. Bringing in counsellors does not provide security. Perhaps some police might have. More on that later.

Would the alleged victim have been more assertive if there had been more counsellors at the school? 

Would it be more likeley that you'd call the cops (councillors) if there were some cops (councillors) to call ??? We'll never know... maybe "market forces" will tell us later....

Now this is particularly interesting. Do you want counsellors in schools, or do you want cops in school? Counsellors are not cops.

Did Mike Harris cut funding for school counsellors, or did he cut funding for police? Does Mike Harris even have control of the Toronto PD budget, or is that under City Hall's watch? I'd be surprised if Mike Harris cut funding for police, because more funding for law enforcement has generally been something "right wing" types are in favor of. And putting a police officer in schools has generally been something "right wing" types support.

Whenever people propose putting police in schools, "lefty" types cry bloody murder, for a variety of "politically correct" reasons. Lefties don't even like security cameras in public places.

Would the alleged assailants have been kinder or gentler if there had been more counsellors at the school?  Pfff. Haha.  HAHAHAHAA. Suuuure they would.  Tough guys just looove going to the counsellor to talk about feelings. They looove to share.

Supposing those councillors called the police.... or is that only a ridiculous impractical "lefty" thing that no good red-blooded councillor would do....

Bringing cops into school is something no good "lefty" would support. You could have your membership revoked for suggesting such a thing.

-k

[tml12]

True but whether or not you actually believe Harper has these new feelings (I agree with you that deep down inside he hasn't changed) you must still evaluate the Party from there OFFICIAL point-of-view.

As for Martin and corporate Canada, that still would make him more libertarian than conservative when you evaluate him alongside his socially liberal views.

These are the facts.

As for the sexual assault case, it makes perfect sense to install cameras and plant more police around in the name of justice.

[Guest eureka]

Harris did not cut funding for police because, as Kimmy says,that is the rsponsibility of City Hall. However, he did cause funding to be frozen. His forced changes to taxation and imposition of provincially mandated budgets left the cities with inadequate resources. What should have gone to policing as ro many things did, as err, says, go to Harris's friends.

There is not the slightest doubt that counsellors, librarians, and teacher resources would contribute to safer schools. Teachers no longer have the time to properly monitor behaviourable problems. They are stretched to the limit. Children not reporting is only part of the problem. It used to be that these building problems were often observed and prevented.

[Yaro]

What disgusts me (if they are guilty) is that nobody else at the school said or did anything about it because there no way in hell a group of boys did this for this long without other students knowing about it. I am not sure what I would have done but it would have involved blinding violence on an unprecedented level.