Harper=Problem, Not Solution

[Guest eureka]

What the Conservatives do need is a trip to the past to rediscover conservatism. There has not been a conservative cell in their collective heads since Manning gathered the faithful.

[Bakunin]

I agree whole-heartitly, Canadians need and want change

Herein lies the problem, Canadians can't decide on a leader. They know that they don't want the liberals, but they know for sure they don't want the so-branded, pro-american, bible-thumpin conservatives, especailly under Stephen Harper.

The conservatives need either a new leader, or a new leadership approach. But where is this new, charismatic, fix-all leader?[

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why not Gilles Duccepe ? (joking)

Seriously, its hard to find the kind of politician that would fit well as a new conservative leader. They clearly need someone able to gather a great part of the liberal vote.

They must be able to disarm the liberal fear tactics.

And they need some damn leadership...

[tml12]

I agree whole-heartitly, Canadians need and want change

Herein lies the problem, Canadians can't decide on a leader. They know that they don't want the liberals, but they know for sure they don't want the so-branded, pro-american, bible-thumpin conservatives, especailly under Stephen Harper.

The conservatives need either a new leader, or a new leadership approach. But where is this new, charismatic, fix-all leader?[

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes prosoldier, that is the point. Sadly, Harper seems to be too much of an opportunist and not enough of a true defender of whatever it takes to bring conservatism to power.

Those who argue Harper is turning the corner or just "coming around" simply continue to prove my point...if he's just coming around now than he's the problem.

[Shakeyhands]

I agree whole-heartitly, Canadians need and want change

The conservatives need either a new leader, or a new leadership approach. But where is this new, charismatic, fix-all leader?[

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think they had the opportunity to do just that, her name was Belinda Stronach....

[I Miss Trudeau]

Seriously, its hard to find the kind of politician that would fit well as a new conservative leader. They clearly need someone able to gather a great part of the liberal vote.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In short, they need a progressive leader.

[err]

I agree whole-heartitly, Canadians need and want change

Herein lies the problem, Canadians can't decide on a leader. They know that they don't want the liberals, but they know for sure they don't want the so-branded, pro-american, bible-thumpin conservatives, especailly under Stephen Harper.

The conservatives need either a new leader, or a new leadership approach. But where is this new, charismatic, fix-all leader?[

Change for the sake of change is not necessarily a good thing. Improvement might be a good thing, but that improvement should be defined before we drop what we have to jump to the improvement....

(actually, there are several significan improvements listed in the NDP policy thread)

[Canuck E Stan]

ERR

It's almost amusing how you can distort reality by not including key facts with your statements.

I'll throw your quote right back to you and ask for the key facts on the other questions I have asked Eureka a number of times but he hasn't answered.

That's ONE province you mentioned a couple that are affected by Manning practices.

You mentioned specifically "Manning" practices.What would they be?.

This was a small pain when shared by everybody, rather than devastation to thousands... and destruction of provincial services. I have to take my hat of to Bob Rae for his handling of a horrible inherited situation.

Your heartfelt rendition of "The Wonderful Life of Bob" was ended by the very people that voted for him, when they voted him out.

The Unions.

There was so much hatred for the man, that unions turned their backs on him and the NDP because of his inability to manage the province. This was an era that showed the Unions what would happen if they got the government they wanted. They quickly decided it wasn't to their liking.

[Guest eureka]

You had your answer, Canuck. It should not be that difficult without major extrapolation. Harris tried very hard to implement Reform ideas in Ontario. Healthcare, Welfare, Taxes. You name it. And, they were a disaster in every area.

The only things he did not do were those that are in the area of federal jurisdiction. There, though, he did end Ontario's role as the broker of Confederation and joined the chorus of little fish.

[tml12]

ERR

It's almost amusing how you can distort reality by not including key facts with your statements.

I'll throw your quote right back to you and ask for the key facts on the other questions I have asked Eureka a number of times but he hasn't answered.

That's ONE province you mentioned a couple that are affected by Manning practices.

You mentioned specifically "Manning" practices.What would they be?.

This was a small pain when shared by everybody, rather than devastation to thousands... and destruction of provincial services. I have to take my hat of to Bob Rae for his handling of a horrible inherited situation.

Your heartfelt rendition of "The Wonderful Life of Bob" was ended by the very people that voted for him, when they voted him out.

The Unions.

There was so much hatred for the man, that unions turned their backs on him and the NDP because of his inability to manage the province. This was an era that showed the Unions what would happen if they got the government they wanted. They quickly decided it wasn't to their liking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So say I agree that the Liberals need some time in the opposition, as many Canadians do.

The next question is: what are the alternatives?

Bloc? Only in Quebec.

NDP? Too left-wing and it is not logical they will form the next government.

Tories? Harper has a far right-wing past that is anti-healthcare unlike Canadian mainstream opinion.

Now, why do you think Canadians support the Liberals (HINT: it has nothing to do with Gomery...)

[Leader Circle]

I agree whole-heartitly, Canadians need and want change

The conservatives need either a new leader, or a new leadership approach. But where is this new, charismatic, fix-all leader?[

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think they had the opportunity to do just that, her name was Belinda Stronach....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited because of the ignorant remark I made about you for making such a silly suggestion. I assume you were joking???

I hope so anyway. She has never brought anything to anyone's table in the way of ideas or policies. She is a liability to anyone she is riding with and a waste of taxpayers money!

[Canuck E Stan]

That's ONE province you mentioned a couple that are affected by Manning practices.

What are the social and economic damage caused in Ontario by Manning practices?

Eureka your blanket vague answer doesn't tell me why it was specifically Mannings practices that caused social and economic damage in Ontario, or the other provinces you won't mention.You claim that it was Mannings practices that caused social and ecomonic damage.You specifically chose Mannings practices as the cause,and not anyone else's.So what are they? And what are the other provinces?

[err]

ERR

This was a small pain when shared by everybody, rather than devastation to thousands... and destruction of provincial services. I have to take my hat of to Bob Rae for his handling of a horrible inherited situation.

Your heartfelt rendition of "The Wonderful Life of Bob" was ended by the very people that voted for him, when they voted him out.

The Unions.

Going by what you have said in the past, it was not the unions who voted him out... And if you'll notice, the unions do not make up the majority of the voters in Ontario...

There was so much hatred for the man, that unions turned their backs on him and the NDP because of his inability to  manage the province. This was an era that showed the Unions what would happen if they got the government they wanted. They quickly decided it wasn't to their liking.

Again, you ignore the facts and blindly choose whichever version of reality that you want at the moment. The province was in a severe recession when Bob Rae was elected. Incidentally, Bob Rae was elected on a "protest vote" because the public wasn't happy with either of the other two choices. As a consequence of the recession, Rae had some very difficult choices to make. I think he made responsible choices, but I don't think it would matter to your camp...

When Mike Harris got in, he had decisions to make, you your camp applauded the firing of all of our environmental monitoring staff, the privatization of water supplies for communities like Walkerton, and the fire sale of our electricity generation capabilities. I would think it a safe wager that if the public were asked which government did the most damage, that your Mike Harris would the majority vote selected....

[Guest eureka]

I know you are not thick, Canuck, so I have to think you are pretending to be so. The Manning practices are those that were put into actual pratctise by Mike Harris, who was a Reformer. I have mentioned just a few of those and the consequences.

Other provinces are obvious. Alberta and B.C. spring readily to mind.

[cybercoma]

I know you are not thick, Canuck, so I have to think you are pretending to be so. The Manning practices are those that were put into actual pratctise by Mike Harris, who was a Reformer. I have mentioned just a few of those and the consequences.

Other provinces are obvious. Alberta and B.C. spring readily to mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alberta is hurting.

[Guest eureka]

Alberta is and was, hurting. Aklberta, too, had a 50% increase in poverty rates. It, too, had its healthcare system and education deprived of funding. We know about welfare and the foodbank situation in Alberta, don't we? In the province that has the least excuse.

[tml12]

Alberta is and was, hurting. Aklberta, too, had a 50% increase in poverty rates. It, too, had its healthcare system and education deprived of funding. We know about welfare and the foodbank situation in Alberta, don't we? In the province that has the least excuse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

More good new for the Conservatives...

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/...tem/itemID/9517

[Semperfi_dani]

Going away from the left vs right debate for a second...

As a moderate voter who votes on the candidate and the party as it suits my needs at the time (yes..my vote has to be earned..its not a given)...

I just plain don't like Harper. I am sure he is a nice guy, but he has about the same media appeal as a turnip. That is not to say that he wouldn't do a good job in leading the country. But the fact is that for the majority of people that really don't pay much attention to politics, that don't take the time to get to know a party or its policies, that beleive what they read in opinion peices of page 6 editorials.... Image is everything.

I live in Alberta. Alot of people have wondered why conservatives never penetrate the Ontario border. It would be too easy for Conservatives here to say...Ontario voters are stupid. And they do But, if there is even the slight perception that the leader of any party is boring, shifty, an hardcore ideologue, and so on, than they won't win.

And i think the biggest thing that stops the conservative party from attaining anythign is the perception, right or wrong, that Harper is a moralist leader and he will pass moral based laws. If people want advice on morality, they will go to their teacher, parents, pastor, reverend or what not. They most certainly do not look to political leaders for moral guidance.

For me personally though, i will not vote for a government that is the appearance of the reform party in disguise. I will vote for the Conservatives if its lead by a former PC party person, like Peter McKay though. Its a shame that the PC party as it was dissolved.

[tml12]

Going away from the left vs right debate for a second...

As a moderate voter who votes on the candidate and the party as it suits my needs at the time (yes..my vote has to be earned..its not a given)...

I just plain don't like Harper. I am sure he is a nice guy, but he has about the same media appeal as a turnip. That is not to say that he wouldn't do a good job in leading the country. But the fact is that for the majority of people that really don't pay much attention to politics, that don't take the time to get to know a party or its policies, that beleive what they read in opinion peices of page 6 editorials.... Image is everything.

I live in Alberta. Alot of people have wondered why conservatives never penetrate the Ontario border. It would be too easy for Conservatives here to say...Ontario voters are stupid. And they do But, if there is even the slight perception that the leader of any party is boring, shifty, an hardcore ideologue, and so on, than they won't win.

And i think the biggest thing that stops the conservative party from attaining anythign is the perception, right or wrong, that Harper is a moralist leader and he will pass moral based laws. If people want advice on morality, they will go to their teacher, parents, pastor, reverend or what not. They most certainly do not look to political leaders for moral guidance.

For me personally though, i will not vote for a government that is the appearance of the reform party in disguise. I will vote for the Conservatives if its lead by a former PC party person, like Peter McKay though. Its a shame that the PC party as it was dissolved.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think a lot of people feel the way you do. And as long as the Conservative Party is governed by somewhat with the right-wing moral policy past that Mr. Harper has.

The fact is, the Liberals don't have anything on Harper that he himself hasn't provided them with.

[err]

And i think the biggest thing that stops the conservative party from attaining anythign is the perception, right or wrong, that Harper is a moralist leader and he will pass moral based laws. If people want advice on morality, they will go to their teacher, parents, pastor, reverend or what not. They most certainly do not look to political leaders for moral guidance.

George Bush won as a moralist leader, who would pass moral based laws. Both Bush and Harper seem to be on the same page on a lot of issues, including gay marriage and abortions...

Except that Bush's "morals" see no problems with killing tens of thousands of Muslims for oil... Maybe Muslims don't count because they aren't as moral as Christians... I don't know, but those kinds of morals aren't my kinds of morals.... Nor Ontario's kinds of morals... I don't trust the "high moral postion"... and neither do a lot of people...

[Semperfi_dani]

George Bush won as a moralist leader, who would pass moral based laws. Both Bush and Harper seem to be on the same page on a lot of issues, including gay marriage and abortions...

The difference being the country in which Bush and Harper live in. A Republican party lead by George Bush would never have a chance in Canada, because for the most part, we are a moderate country. Weather that be moderate Conservative or Moderate Liberal, the extreme party's don't do well here. We have more than two partys in Canada. So we have party's that will suit your conservativeness or liberalness. And Moderates (on either side) tend not to want to involved moral issues on a larger political spectrum.

Unfortuneately for the conservatives under Harper, that is not the case. He caters to the small conservative ideologue section of the party. Most conservatives themselves would consider themselves to be progressive. Makes one yearn for the old PC party..but thats another thread!

[shoop]

Unfortuneately for the conservatives under Harper, that is not the case. He caters to the small conservative ideologue section of the party. Most conservatives themselves would consider themselves to be progressive. Makes one yearn for the old PC party..but thats another thread!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The problem for the Cons under Harper is that the Liberals have inaccurately, and unfairly painted him as beholden to the social conservative side of the party.

He's not. Just look at the party's current platform.

Sure you can dig up old statement's of his, but you can do the same with Martin. Democratic deficit, "my term in office will be a waste if I can't deal with Western alienation", government renewal, national daycare program.

Harper is following the right course. The Liberals are going to have to do a little more than yell Scary Scary Scary this time around...

[err]

Unfortuneately for the conservatives under Harper, that is not the case. He caters to the small conservative ideologue section of the party. Most conservatives themselves would consider themselves to be progressive. Makes one yearn for the old PC party..but thats another thread!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The problem for the Cons under Harper is that the Liberals have inaccurately, and unfairly painted him as beholden to the social conservative side of the party.

The biggest barrier to his being re-elected is that people see him as a right-wing Alliance Party redneck Conservative. (which is what he is, and an image that he's trying to shed) ... anti-gay, homophobic, let-the-rich-rule politics. They can modify their "official platform" to try to appeal to a more moderate public, but thankfully, Harper can't pull it off....

The big bad wolf is trying to dress up in grandma's clothing now, but we've watched him getting dressed, and we know that it is still the big bad wolf.... Little Red (Liberal) Riding Hood isn't going to be fooled this time.

[Semperfi_dani]

Just to clarify my statement...

Its not IF he is like that..cuz you know, for all i care, he could be one step away from Sainthood.

That's not the point. Politics is perception, and as long as he is, fairly or unfairly, to be the the way I and other have laid out, than it will always be a hinderance. And for the average voter who doesnt bother to inform themselves beyond the blanket issues and media flash points, thats what they judge. If their neigbour says "Harper is a racist", and than they take a stand against immigration in the election, than people naturally put two and two togehter. They come up with five..but to them its a four.

[Guest eureka]

This is a dissapointing Hallowe'en. I had to take off my Stephen Harper costume since the first youngsters to visit ran screaming down the driveway after falling down the steps in their hurry to escape.

[Leader Circle]

This is a dissapointing Hallowe'en. I had to take off my Stephen Harper costume since the first youngsters to visit ran screaming down the driveway after falling down the steps in their hurry to escape.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You didn't wear your Martin costume because the kids had no money to steal?

They always have their unicef boxes to clean out!!!