EDUCATION and JOBS

[BROWN]

I saw two university graduates standing on a street corner with a sign saying "Spare a job"....these are our university students who have spent thousands of dollars to earn an education..... Why are we promoting education if the average student cannot find a decent job? Why do colleges/universities accept certain employers as co-op resources when these business themselves are struggling in the real world? These post secondary institutions want to make money and hence put students into poor co-op placements ... at this rate, we will have university/college graduates driving taxis and telemarketing to make ends meet...or is this today's reality for our educated youth?

[Renegade]

A university degree is not a guarantee of a job. The funds spent on education is an investment which both increases the students chances of getting a job and betters their chance of getting higher wages.

Further, not all graduates are in equal demand in the employment market. Part of the responsibility in choosing the right course of study is the onus to choose one for which there is a demand in the job market.

[Argus]

A university degree is not a guarantee of a job. The funds spent on education is an investment which both increases the students chances of getting a job and betters their chance of getting higher wages.

Further, not all graduates are in equal demand in the employment market. Part of the responsibility in choosing the right course of study is the onus to choose one for which there is a demand in the job market.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All of this is true. Still, it also remains true that we do a lousy job of training young people and preparing them for the job market. Employers have little interest in hiring and training new graduates, who they regard as barely fit to BEGIN being trained in what they want. Instead they spend their money lobbying government to bring in more foreign workers because of a "skills shortage".

There simply is no excuse for a skills shortage in a country with as advanced an education system as Canada has. It is a sign of utter incompetence and short sightedness on the part of both government and industry leaders.

[theloniusfleabag]

I have to agree with both Argus and Renegade on this one. If anyone pursues a degree (or even a phd) in philosophy, or even psychology, they should understand that they will either become a teacher of the subject, or a waiter. Even with other degrees, sometimes markets have gluts.

It is a sign of utter incompetence and short sightedness on the part of both government and industry leaders.

A symptom of the free enterprise system, I charge. Everyone is preoccupied with profits in this quarter, not the next one.

[Guest eureka]

Give them all some hemlock. Let's have a lot more Towers of Babel.

[Toro]

I saw two university graduates standing on a street corner with a sign saying "Spare a job"....these are our university students who have spent thousands of dollars to earn an education.....  Why are we promoting education if the average student cannot find a decent job?  Why do colleges/universities accept certain employers as co-op resources when these business themselves are struggling in the real world?  These post secondary institutions want to make money and hence put students into poor co-op placements ...  at this rate, we will have university/college graduates driving taxis and telemarketing to make ends meet...or is this today's reality for our educated youth?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well. that's what happens when you get a B.A. hahaha!

Seriously, when I came out into the job market in the early 90s, I worked in a bar, as a telemarketer and night audit in a hotel. Like Renegade said, there is no gaurantee of getting the job you want, or even a good job. All it does is increases the odds.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Toro,

Well. that's what happens when you get a B.A. hahaha!

Not too far from the truth, really. I worked in a warehouse, sorting freight, with a guy who had a B.F.A, and the running joke was that it was a 'Bachelor of F#ck All'.

[August1991]

• In 2003, the average full-time year-round worker in the United States with a four-year college degree earned $49,900, 62 percent more than the $30,800 earned by the average full-time year-round worker with only a high school diploma.

• Those with master’s degrees earned almost twice as much, and those with professional degrees earned over three times as much per year as high school graduates.

• Median earnings for those with some college but no degree were 16 percent higher than those for high school graduates, and adults with associate degrees

earned 22 percent more than high school graduates.

• The average college graduate working full-time yearround pays over 100 percent more in federal income taxes and about 78 percent more in total federal, state, and local taxes than the average high school graduate.

US College Board

Of course, you can always find individual exceptions. For example, most professional sports players and most Hollywood stars have never been to college (and many dropped out of high school) yet they earn high salaries. And Argus always seems to get taxi drivers with PhDs.

I think the better question is the following: does more education lead to higher salaries or do people with better skills go to school longer and then earn higher salaries? In effect, is the education system simply a complex (and costly) filtering mechanism to identify people with better natural skills?

[tml12]

• In 2003, the average full-time year-round worker in the United States with a four-year college degree earned $49,900, 62 percent more than the $30,800 earned by the average full-time year-round worker with only a high school diploma.

• Those with master’s degrees earned almost twice as much, and those with professional degrees earned over three times as much per year as high school graduates.

• Median earnings for those with some college but no degree were 16 percent higher than those for high school graduates, and adults with associate degrees

earned 22 percent more than high school graduates.

• The average college graduate working full-time yearround pays over 100 percent more in federal income taxes and about 78 percent more in total federal, state, and local taxes than the average high school graduate.

US College Board

Of course, you can always find individual exceptions. For example, most professional sports players and most Hollywood stars have never been to college (and many dropped out of high school) yet they earn high salaries. And Argus always seems to get taxi drivers with PhDs.

I think the better question is the following: does more education lead to higher salaries or do people with better skills go to school longer and then earn higher salaries? In effect, is the education system simply a complex (and costly) filtering mechanism to identify people with better natural skills?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would argue that no, more years of schooling is not equal with a better paying job but is only equatable with a title (i.e. Ph D, etc.)

If you go to law school, you will be in school for less years than if you go to grad school and if you get a good job as a lawyer then you are earning higher salary...

[August1991]

I would argue that no, more years of schooling is not equal with a better paying job but is only equatable with a title (i.e. Ph D, etc.)

If you go to law school, you will be in school for less years than if you go to grad school and if you get a good job as a lawyer then you are earning higher salary...

tml, the evidence provided above (and found many times elsewhere) is that the number of years in school is closely correlated with income. Of course, the degree of difficulty of the school (and in particular the degree of difficulty to enter the school) are also correlated.

Law school and articling outside of Quebec typically take over 8 years of post-secondary education, roughly the minimum time required to get a PhD.

My argument was that the education system performs a filtering task to identify people with natural talents: it takes time and difficult tasks to weed out the people who are not capable. They typically get bored or find the tasks too difficult and drop out.

The point is that this gives the idea of "grade inflation" a whole new meaning. Everyone is chasing after a new, more complex diploma to distinguish themselves from everyone else. Since too many win the race, we now make the race longer to find out who the winners are. This is a colossal waste of time.

When the State puts emphasis on education and suggests everyone should go to school, it is confusing symbol for reality. It is the equivalent of noticing that rich people tend to wear expensive shoes so if we encourage everyone to have expensive shoes, they'll be rich. Worse, it is giving everyone better running shoes so the race takes longer for all.

[fryingpan]

I think part of the problem with University grads not being able to find jobs is the fact that Universities themselves are getting easier and easier to get into (some will accept people with averages as low as 65%). Not only that, but there is a lot of grade inflation. Some people are getting As in some universities that would get them a D in another.

In order to get a good job in this day and age, you can't just have good grades, you need to have the proper skills and experience. People averaging 65% in their high school courses most likely don't have these skills (not to mention a work ethic). Maybe if universities raised their entrance standards as well as their grading standards, students might be able to find jobs (since they would need more skills and a better work ethic to keep up).

[geoffrey]

I think part of the problem with University grads not being able to find jobs is the fact that Universities themselves are getting easier and easier to get into (some will accept people with averages as low as 65%). Not only that, but there is a lot of grade inflation. Some people are getting As in some universities that would get them a D in another.

In order to get a good job in this day and age, you can't just have good grades, you need to have the proper skills and experience. People averaging 65% in their high school courses most likely don't have these skills (not to mention a work ethic). Maybe if universities raised their entrance standards as well as their grading standards, students might be able to find jobs (since they would need more skills and a better work ethic to keep up).

Somewhat agreed. Universities need to:

- Be way more expensive. You can pay for it on a summer job, make it cost something so people will only do it if they seriously want to make something of their degree!

- Be more exclusive. Top marks only thanks. It's these idiots taking all these fine arts and some of the social science programs and expect to make $50k out the door that are the problem. If your in these fields, your going to teach, or be pushed towards irrelevance.

Universities and colleges need to cut their arts faculty students by probably 90%, because there simply isn't need for that many teachers. Do this through increased fees and higher standards.

[fryingpan]

Universities should also have more real-life training along with the academic part (Co-op, labs, case studies, etc...). This will give students practical experience that relates directly to the jobs that they hope to get when they graduate. The textbooks are informative enough and have lots of pretty pictures to hold the attention spans of those with 65% averages, but it isn't enough in this day and age.

[Concerned]

A university degree, particularly one in the arts, is a stepping stone for a career. It certainly doesn't train you with any job specific skills, however I have found that my university educated employees stick with their careers, are better goal setters, learn faster, and problem solve better. They still need the technical training...and anybody with a degree has to understand this, and pursue it. If you want to get past bartender or taxi driver you have to work from the bottom of an organization, up. This is what our grads have to understand. When I am recruiting I always look for the degree, and tend to get better results from those that have it than those that don't.

[Cameron]

No jobs for University students? This is what happens when you elect Liberals for 13 years....

[Slavik44]

What exactly is time? And how do we define what is a waste of time? Is a waste of time generaly applicable, is it specific, and who determines if you are wasting your time. Do I get to determine? Geoff, your wasting your time, why? because I say so. I don't think, things work like that. You see if you had taken a history course, you might have been introduced to this idea of individualism, its pretty prevalant in western society. What I am thinking here is of the quality of being an individual and as an individual being able to determine whether or not you are wasting your time, by your self, not having someone else determine that for you. For instance, many people have sat back and said, a B.A is a waste of time. I will not debate wether or not a B.A is a waste of time for you, but allow me to decide for myself. In the end I enjoy going to school (knida of Ironic I never really went to high school), I like learning about the past, about other cultures, and about other societies. Many people I talk to getting a B.B.A, are doing it for the money, they hate every second but they want the money. For them money means happiness, and getting a B.B.A means getting money, therefore getting a B.B.A means happiness. For me the college expirence and getting my B.A is enjoyable, so who are you to sit down and tell me not to enjoy myself. Just because you don't agree with it? Well I am sorry comrade Stalin, but as long as I am guranteed, Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, I will do what makes me happ, within the law, not what you would be happy with me doing. As far as raising the cost I don't see why, I make just enough to go to school, I would rather not have to graduate in debt. When it comes to college raising the cost might not mean screening out the less commited so much as it might mean screening out those with less financial means.

As for raising the bar, why? Geoffery if I recall, in a post about abortion, you noted that you theoretically were a candidate to be aborted, because for all intents and purposes, you were going to grow up to be an idiot. Of course the whole method of screening people out is not precise and it incurs a high level of inefficiencies. I was looking at my transcripts and I laugh at the fact that I have a fairly high GPA thanks to taking the most remedial courses possible, to the point that none of my courses really qualified me for acceptance into university, I didn't have the right courses. Now in University I have a 3.94 CGPA and am in the top two percentile of my school, the screening process didn't exactly work. It didn't work because in high school I had no direction, no purpose, no desire to do anything but stay home sleep in and watch T.V. where as in University I have a goal, my goal is to get good grades so I can get into law school. Some people have goals in high school, they have their life all planned out. That can be one of the biggest advantages to university, for the 90% of us who don't have our life planned out, I suppose not only is it an adventure in learning but an adventure in self learning and I see no reason why we should deny that to people. Some people don't figure it out before university, in university, or after university, some people never figure it out. But in the end the quest is always the most fun, and I don't see why we should be denying people the oppurtunity to take that quest, just because they don't meet your standards or won't live their life the way you want them to. I don't think it would be fair for me to tell you how to live your life, and I don't think you want me to either, this feeling is reciprocal amongst most people in the western world.

[geoffrey]

Thats all fine and dandy to do as you please and live as a free spirit.

Until it steps on the toes of those that want to be productive members of society by taking away valuable resources. How many philosophers can we possibly need in society??

[Argus]

Thats all fine and dandy to do as you please and live as a free spirit.

Until it steps on the toes of those that want to be productive members of society by taking away valuable resources. How many philosophers can we possibly need in society??

I think the heart of the problem is confusion about what universities provide, or should provide. If you believe that going to university will provide you with a good, well-rounded education in the in life, in literature and art and history and philosophy, and the world around you - fine and dandy. That is, after all, the essence, the purpose, the raison d'etre of universities. By all means, go. I would.

However, if you're looking for training, as opposed to an education, you should be directed elsewhere, to colleges or apprenticeship programs. Now saying this I realize, of course, that universities have adapted and changed over the years. There are specific 'training" courses at all universities, and this is where the confusion comes from. These "training" courses include such things as Law, Architecture, Engineering, and Medicine. You are specifically "trained" in a specific job. This is not what universities were historically about.

But young people, being largely clueless, have sort of mixed these up. They've gotten the idea that going to university will lead to a high-paying job. Statistically, it does, of course. But this depends on what you've taken there, whether a "training" course, or some general educational courses on life, the universe and everything. If you are going this route, then your path to career success comes from connections, not employers impressed with your academic credentials. I can tell you that the degrees of the people we have hired as clerks (medieval history, English, psychology, political science, sociology) were utterly irrelevent to us. On the other hand, our HR people insist on a degree to transfer into their shop. Perhaps it's not a coincidence that HR is such a ghastly cockup which does nothing it alleges it does, and at enormous time and expense, too.

[fryingpan]

Maybe there should be schools that combine both training and education seeing as how both are important. Colleges/trade schools tend to provide training while universities tend to provide education. But in this day and age it seems you need both. Unless, of course, you have connections, in which case you can sit on your butt and let others go get the jobs for you.

Maybe we can call it collegersity?

[Sakura]

There are schools that are trade schools, where they teach u hands on training about a certain field!

[Slavik44]

Thats all fine and dandy to do as you please and live as a free spirit.

Until it steps on the toes of those that want to be productive members of society by taking away valuable resources. How many philosophers can we possibly need in society??

What do you mean step on your toes, perhaps people who don't work out 5 times a week are stepping on my toes, perhaps people who smoke are stepping on my toes, perhaps people who take EI holidays are stepping on my toes. One of the most expensive things for government is costs associated with private car ownership, maybe car owners are stepping on my toes. How about dogs, think about they spend all this money on a dog who lives for 10-15 years and then dies, that dog doesn't have a job and produces nothing but more dogs and dog crap. That money could be better spent elsewhere, and that time could be better spent elsewhere, yet we have dog parks, maybe dogs and dog owners are stepping on my toes. How about the entertainment industry, nothing productive comes from sitting down and watching the Lord of the rings trilogy but that hasn't stopped me from watching it, it hasn't stopped the government from subsidizing the industry, and it hasn't stopped the industry from taking in billions of dollars a year. How about the chevy camaro? they are comming out with a new one, but for a number of years the F bodies were merely a product of the Canadian government, probabley why they failed.

I think what you need to consider is that getting my degree steps on your toes so much less then other activites. Like smoking, seriously its a billion dollar industry whose end product is death. Of all the things to get pissed off about Geoff, why don't you go get pissed off at money being wasted on killing people, I hardly call that productive. In Canada alone we pay tobbaco companies 100 million dollars, to do what? Kill our people and take our money...yeah and your pissed off about a bloody philosophy degree???????? And please the degree is in history.

[Argus]

I think what you need to consider is that getting my degree steps on your toes so much less then other activites. Like smoking, seriously its a billion dollar industry whose end product is death. Of all the things to get pissed off about Geoff, why don't you go get pissed off at money being wasted on killing people, I hardly call that productive. In Canada alone we pay tobbaco companies 100 million dollars, to do what? Kill our people and take our money...yeah and your pissed off about a bloody philosophy degree???????? And please the degree is in history.

That's good, but maybe you should minor in Philosophy so that after you graduate you can be philosophical about that waiter job.

[geoffrey]

Thats all fine and dandy to do as you please and live as a free spirit.

Until it steps on the toes of those that want to be productive members of society by taking away valuable resources. How many philosophers can we possibly need in society??

What do you mean step on your toes, perhaps people who don't work out 5 times a week are stepping on my toes, perhaps people who smoke are stepping on my toes, perhaps people who take EI holidays are stepping on my toes. One of the most expensive things for government is costs associated with private car ownership, maybe car owners are stepping on my toes. How about dogs, think about they spend all this money on a dog who lives for 10-15 years and then dies, that dog doesn't have a job and produces nothing but more dogs and dog crap. That money could be better spent elsewhere, and that time could be better spent elsewhere, yet we have dog parks, maybe dogs and dog owners are stepping on my toes. How about the entertainment industry, nothing productive comes from sitting down and watching the Lord of the rings trilogy but that hasn't stopped me from watching it, it hasn't stopped the government from subsidizing the industry, and it hasn't stopped the industry from taking in billions of dollars a year. How about the chevy camaro? they are comming out with a new one, but for a number of years the F bodies were merely a product of the Canadian government, probabley why they failed.

I think what you need to consider is that getting my degree steps on your toes so much less then other activites. Like smoking, seriously its a billion dollar industry whose end product is death. Of all the things to get pissed off about Geoff, why don't you go get pissed off at money being wasted on killing people, I hardly call that productive. In Canada alone we pay tobbaco companies 100 million dollars, to do what? Kill our people and take our money...yeah and your pissed off about a bloody philosophy degree???????? And please the degree is in history.

Funny Slavik, I agree on nearly every point you raise there too, I'm pissed of at all the freeloaders in society. Some limited examples:

- Fat people that think its ok (they cost us too much)

- Smokers (they cost us too much)

- Alcoholics (they cost us too much)

But why clog up our limited resources of classrooms and teachers with people that will never use that education to contribute to society.

[Slavik44]

Funny Slavik, I agree on nearly every point you raise there too, I'm pissed of at all the freeloaders in society. Some limited examples:

- Fat people that think its ok (they cost us too much)

- Smokers (they cost us too much)

- Alcoholics (they cost us too much)

But why clog up our limited resources of classrooms and teachers with people that will never use that education to contribute to society.

I belive it was an ivy league history professor who claimed the value of a degree in history, is simply that you can criticaly read a Newspaper. It might seem like alot of money to invest, only to teach people how think critically, but given todays society, people who can read a newspaper are a rare treasure. If history can teach people only to think critically, to read a newspaper, then we as society have made a great gain. I know alot of people on the right side of the political spectrum say, everyone should be forced to take an economics course, I understand the principle behind this, and I would like to continue this principle to suggest that if a B.A means you understand your surroundings even a little better, society as a whole will be better.

[geoffrey]

Funny Slavik, I agree on nearly every point you raise there too, I'm pissed of at all the freeloaders in society. Some limited examples:

- Fat people that think its ok (they cost us too much)

- Smokers (they cost us too much)

- Alcoholics (they cost us too much)

But why clog up our limited resources of classrooms and teachers with people that will never use that education to contribute to society.

I belive it was an ivy league history professor who claimed the value of a degree in history, is simply that you can criticaly read a Newspaper. It might seem like alot of money to invest, only to teach people how think critically, but given todays society, people who can read a newspaper are a rare treasure. If history can teach people only to think critically, to read a newspaper, then we as society have made a great gain. I know alot of people on the right side of the political spectrum say, everyone should be forced to take an economics course, I understand the principle behind this, and I would like to continue this principle to suggest that if a B.A means you understand your surroundings even a little better, society as a whole will be better.

Hmm Slavik, I like your idealism and what a great place this world would be if we could all have degrees and all that. But there is a limited resource, over utilised as is, and we have to make sure only the most qualified and dedicated have access to this resource (being university spots).

Are you taking History? If so, great, I'm sure your doing well with it and all that. I'm not bashing all BA people (a BA is part of my current program)!

But its not worth the cost to our society, and to people like you and I in overcrowded classrooms, to have all our welders or plumbers be experts in 17th century poetry. I hope you see where I'm coming from. There just aren't enough jobs out there that require expertise in many of these fields, or jobs that require critical thinking. Too many undergrad degree holders end up working in drycleaners and resturants for many years. Why? Because there are too many of them!