Is this true ?

[shoop]

Ok. So why doesn't the CPC just pack up and go home because Ontario does not want right wing social conservatives in power? A rhetorical question of course but it is a fact that many Canadians are suspicious of the CPC and it does not make a difference that these suspicions may be unfounded.

I have tried to be constructive and suggest ways that I think the CPC could address the suspicious and have received nothing but comments denouncing the ignorant ontario voter. I can guarantee that approach will not win any votes in Ontario.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why quote something if you aren't going to refer to it at all? Who 'denounced' the ignorant Ontario voters?

There are a lot of Ontarians who will vote Conservative this time around because they are sick of Liberal corruption and want a government that isn't morally bankrupt.

[Riverwind]

Why quote something if you aren't going to refer to it at all? Who 'denounced' the ignorant Ontario voters?

See below:

If it weren't social conservatism, Harper would be criticized for something else. Too many Ontario voters simply cannot bring themselves to voting for an Albertan. To do so would be an admission that the Canada they want to believe in does not exist.

The biggest challenge facing the Tories is the sheer ignorance of most of the electorate. Vast numbers of them pay little attention to what is going on, and even most of those who do have this casual stupid cynicism which says that all parties are the same anyway - without realizing that if that comes to be the case the only people at fault will be them.

There are a lot of Ontarians who will vote Conservative this time around because they are sick of Liberal corruption and want a government that isn't morally bankrupt.

Only because the CPC has been forced to bend over backwards to moderate its message - if Canadians had reacted the way you wanted we would have a conservative gov't today that would believe it had a mandate to introduce all sorts of regressive policies. Thankfully, the electorate has made it clear that such policies would be unwelcome.

Today, I am only considering them because I believe there are enough moderates in the party to keep the social extremists in line and because bush's 'tax cuts at all costs' agenda has been so thoroughly discredited that the CPC will have to be prudent on that front too (i.e. no tax cuts if that creates a deficit).

[Argus]

The fact is that on any socially conservative policy you can actually point to - as opposed to the ones you'll make up and then attribute to the Tories - masses of Canadians share their views. In most cases the numbers are a little below or a little above half of Canadians. And when you discount the leftists who will NEVER vote Tory, no matter what they do, the majority of their voters and potential voters agree with them on most social policy issues. Extreme right? You can't point to a single "extreme right" wing issue, except that to you, apparently, anyone not a Liberal is "extreme right".

I'm curious about something here. There is, really, one party in which social conservative views are represented. Now, based on your formulation of nearly 50 per cent of the electorate harbouring SoCon views, then the Tories should be guaranteed a minimum of, well, almost 50 per cent of the vote or aty leats close to that.

I have some socially conservative views - as you may have noticed - but I can't recall them ever seriously influencing my vote. My chief concerns have always been with honesty and integrity in government, and with competence in fiscal matters. The only social views which affect me strongly are crime and immigration, and neither are really social except that I feel a strong sense of thwarted justice (crime) and on immigration, a worry that this country's traditional values and culture are being swamped by masses of newcomers who not only have no intention of ever adopting our culture but are being paid and encouraged to retain their own.

I know there are social conservatives who basically care about little else than, say, banning abortion, just as there are those on the left who would vote for Joe Stalin so long as he promised gay marriage and made mouth noises about his respect for gay rights. But I tend to concentrate first on issues which personally affect me. Whether gays marry or there is a legal mechanism for regulating abortions is of some concern, but relatively minor compared to my overall concern with sound and honest fiscal management.

[Argus]

I have tried to be constructive and suggest ways that I think the CPC could address the suspicious and have received nothing but comments denouncing the ignorant ontario voter. I can guarantee that approach will not win any votes in Ontario.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your "constructive" comments consisted of the Tories abandoning everything they stand for to become liberals.

I don't know if you are aware of it but I am an Ontario voter. And there are quite a few like me. Harris didn't get those big majorities out of nothing, you know.

However, a lot of Ontario voters have allowed themselves to be convinced by scaremongering tactics that Harper is the second coming of Hitler, that he and his party hate visible minorities (even though they have more minorities in their ranks than anyone else) that they are homophobic, because they don't approve of gay marriage, that they are sexists, racists, etceteraists, and just too dangerous. The Liberals are primarily responsible for this, though the old PC party and the NDP had a hand, and of course, the largely left wing media had their part.

The argument doesn't work with anyone who looks beyond the surface, but all-too many people don't bother doing so.

[shoop]

Today, I am only considering them because I believe there are enough moderates in the party to keep the social extremists in line and because bush's 'tax cuts at all costs' agenda has been so thoroughly discredited that the CPC will have to be prudent on that front too (i.e. no tax cuts if that creates a deficit).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If we are turning the likes of you the party has a heck of a chance of winning the next election.

Seriously, the Liberals are in more trouble than they have been for a decade. If Harper runs well he will be the next Prime Minister.

[Argus]

if Canadians had reacted the way you wanted we would have a conservative gov't today that would believe it had a mandate to introduce all sorts of regressive policies. Thankfully, the electorate has made it clear that such policies would be unwelcome.

Like what policies? The ones they never had to begin with? Like banning abortion?

Today, I am only considering them because I believe there are enough moderates in the party to keep the social extremists in line and because bush's 'tax cuts at all costs' agenda has been so thoroughly discredited that the CPC will have to be prudent on that front too (i.e. no tax cuts if that creates a deficit).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Liberals have just introduced a tax cut, so to speak, in their silly refund thing. And the idea that Harper would bring in a budget with a deficit, in anything other than a national crisis, is laughable.

[Riverwind]

If we are turning the likes of you the party has a heck of a chance of winning the next election. 

Martin seems to be his own worst enemy: a 277,000 salary for the head of crown corporation? Sounds reasonable. Expense claims for gum? Petty but not significant. A contract with a clause the entitles him to severence after he resigns! give me a break!. Martin was the guy who appointed Dingwall so he has to take the responsibility for it.

[August1991]

I largely agree with Argus' response to you, Sparhawk, but I'll add my own take.  The continuing support for the Liberals and the difficulty of the Tories to cross 35% are manifestations of fundamental problems in Canadian federal politics.  If it weren't social conservatism, Harper would be criticized for something else.  Too many Ontario voters simply cannot bring themselves to voting for an Albertan.  To do so would be an admission that the Canada they want to believe in does not exist.

Why won't Quebequers vote for Harper? I hear he speaks excellent French so language cannot be the reason. If any block of voters is prejudiced against outsiders it is Quebequers. Why do you constantly criticize the Ontario voter but let Quebec voters off the hook? From the perspective of many Canadians voting for a party whose only purpose is to prevent parliment from working displays an appalling level of ignorance and lack of ethics on the part of Quebequers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are right, Sparhawk. People in Quebec are not going to vote for Harper either - but for different reasons than people in Ontario.

Social conservatism and the nationalist/separatist divide. Nationalists vote Liberal, Separatists vote BQ that's the way it is.

Quebeckers are different than the rest of Canada. You will never get to them by appealing to logic.

I disagree Shoop. Suffice to say that French Quebec has different facets, not the least of which is Montreal and the rest. And I have never agreed with Laurier's comment about opinions and sentiments, at least in the modern context.

I am reticent to say talk once again about Quebec sovereignty but it is the fault line in Canadian federal politics. Within Quebec society, it has created an absolute breakdown on almost all social issues and this breakdown, I fear, has spilled over to Canadian federal politics. The current dominance of the Liberal Party is evidence of this. You can call that the August1991 Thesis of Canadian Politics. In practice, the BQ is like the Italian Communist Party and Ontarians will not vote for Harper.

So, Sparhawk, I don't mean that Ontarians are ignorant. I mean that they prefer to vote for this ideal called Canada (which in fact is Ontario). Forced to choose, (and they don't want to), they are reticent to put their cards in with Albertans (vote Conservative). They still prefer to side with Quebec (vote Liberal). That is particularly true of Catholic Ontarians.

These Ontario voters use social conservatism as an excuse to tolerate the Liberals and to justify their choice. Like in Quebec, people are choosing not based on what they truly want but for some greater, overriding issue. For many Ontarians, voting for Harper and the Conservatives is voting for the end of Canada.

(This is truly a discussion for another thread.)

Martin was the guy who appointed Dingwall so he has to take the responsibility for it.

I thought Chretien appointed Dingwall.

[Riverwind]

Martin was the guy who appointed Dingwall so he has to take the responsibility for it.

I thought Chretien appointed Dingwall.

You are right:

Dingwall has also been under fire for acting as an unregistered lobbyist prior to his 2003 appointment as president and chief executive of the mint.

I suspect whatever termination clause in his contract was deliberately put there by Chretien to prevent Martin from cleaning out Chretien loyalists after he took over. God, Liberals love to sabotague their successors.

[err]

However, a lot of Ontario voters have allowed themselves to be convinced by scaremongering tactics that Harper is the second coming of Hitler,

... actually, they're scared that it will be the second coming of Harris with the anti-gay, anti-abortion twist.

that he and his party hate visible minorities (even though they have more minorities in their ranks than anyone else) that they are homophobic, because they don't approve of gay marriage, that they are sexists, racists, etceteraists, and just too dangerous.

The pro-conservative posters in this forum certainly seem to fit this bill.... so one can only assume that that's the kind of thing the party stands for....

I note that you didn't mention abortion... that they were going to ban... no...the public wasn't going for that... That the party wasn't going to ban, but they wouldn't stop a private members' bill.... no the public still isn't going for it... That they weren't going to ban... What should we say to get elected ????

The Liberals are primarily responsible for this, though the old PC party and the NDP had a hand, and of course, the largely left wing media had their part.

Ha Ha Ha... funny guy... What were the liberals and NDP responsible for... driving the Conservatives into being rednecks ??? And this next part busts my gut: "The largely left-wing media...." I didn't know the Toronto Star was that popular that it could sway the opinion of the whole province....

[Argus]

However, a lot of Ontario voters have allowed themselves to be convinced by scaremongering tactics that Harper is the second coming of Hitler,

... actually, they're scared that it will be the second coming of Harris with the anti-gay, anti-abortion twist.

While Harris might be one of the boogeymen for the far left he was always liked by Ontarians. He had huge success at the polls, and his party was only defeated after Ernie Eves took over and softened or threw away everything Harris had put in place. Apparently Ontarions decided since Eves was going to be a liberal they might as well vote for a real liberal (presuming you can append a term like 'real" to a phony like McGuinty).

that he and his party hate visible minorities (even though they have more minorities in their ranks than anyone else) that they are homophobic, because they don't approve of gay marriage, that they are sexists, racists, etceteraists, and just too dangerous.

The pro-conservative posters in this forum certainly seem to fit this bill.... so one can only assume that that's the kind of thing the party stands for....

But you are so rabidly hateful towards conservatism, and so stridently politically correct you can hardly be seen as any kind of reliable judge of such things.

I note that you didn't mention abortion... that they were going to ban... no...the public wasn't going for that... That the party wasn't going to ban, but they wouldn't stop a private members' bill.... no the public still isn't going for it... That they weren't going to ban...  What should we say to get elected ????

As far back as when they were the Reform Party a motion to ban abortion was soundly defeated at the party's congress. It was defeated again when they became the Alliance, by an even greater number. It would be soundly thumped if the present Conservative Party even considered it. The fact is that even if all the other parties walked out of the House and only the Tories got to vote on banning abortion it would never pass. It's just been a boogeyman the left has been using to get votes and scare women. It's a way they can reassure themselves and the electorate that they are "defending" womens rights, even if the defence is against a straw man.

The Liberals are primarily responsible for this, though the old PC party and the NDP had a hand, and of course, the largely left wing media had their part.

Ha Ha Ha... funny guy... What were the liberals and NDP responsible for... driving the Conservatives into being rednecks ??? And this next part busts my gut: "The largely left-wing media...." I didn't know the Toronto Star was that popular that it could sway the opinion of the whole province....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Virtually all major media organs in Canada are left wing by any reasonable judgement of their political leanings. This is especially so on social issues. To suggest the Asper media conglomerate is not a liberal propaganda organ is silly. Columnists have been fired for being too critical of the Liberals. CTV's president slobbered over Chretien at every opportunity. The CBC is the great defender of liberalism, even if it isn't entirely under the control of the Liberals. The fact is those who go to journalism schools are of a similar mindset, and generally come from comfortable, upper middle-class liberal households. Poli Sci students are generally of a similar mindset (I've yet to meet a poli sci student or graduate who wasn't a leftist).

[ConservativeJoe]

Some have said that this is no different to what Ralph Klein did.

Back the truck up. Uh, yes it is.

Mr. Klein is paying a dividend to Albertans from the proceeds of the huge profits from oil

Mr. Martin is paying you with less than a third of what he overcharged you. Does that seem the same to you?

[Canuck E Stan]

The editorial cartoon in the Calgary Herald today showed it perfect.

Goodale pulling money out of a wallet and saying "this for you",

and the recipient saying,"But that's my wallet."

[Yodeler]

Mr. Martin is paying you with less than a third of what he overcharged you.  Does that seem the same to you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To submisive Canadian pushovers it probably does.

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpos...56-c32a9b4988f7