Ontario whines

[B. Max]

while it lies.

http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/050901/n0901141A.html

McGuinty claims Ontario pays more than its fair share on a per capita basis to Ottawa - and bears a $23-billion gap between what the province pays Ottawa and what it gets back to help fund federal services.

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Cor...31/1194817.html

According to Tracy Balash, spokesperson for Alberta Finance, Alberta receives about $16.3 billion back in federal government services and programs. That means the net contribution Albertans generously share with the ROC comes to $9.3 billion -- or $2,914 per Albertan -- by far the largest per capita transfer payments of any other province. Next in line is Ontario at $1,856 per Ontarian.

Where i would differ with this article is in the choosing of words. Sharing is something you do, not something done to you. The proper definition would theft.

[Guest eureka]

Do you have reading difficulties? The $23 billion is not from equalization payments. Your comparison is invalid.

[B. Max]

Do you have reading difficulties? The $23 billion is not from equalization payments. Your comparison is invalid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have no difficulty reading. The 23 billion is from an over spending government, as the Ont. chamber reported last week.

The comparison is the per capita of extortion. One of albertas demands for staying in the country is the stripping of the feds of the power to tax.

[kimmy]

Well, it appears that Terry Balash and McGuinty are using the same set of figures, at least. $1856 per Ontarion works out to $23 billion.

Does Ontario pay more than its fair share into confederation? Does Alberta? The answer to that depends on what you consider fair, I suppose. Ontario, like Alberta, pays because it is a prosperous province. There has been some debate here on our happy little forum recently as to whether transfer payments and equalization are achieving the goals they're supposed to, whether it has created (as Harper put it) a culture of dependancy and defeatism in Atlantic Canada, and whether some revamping of the system would improve things.

Is it fair that Ontario's government is in a deficit situation while the federal government continues to chalk up surpluses? Well, as long as there's a national debt, I'd suggest that yes, the federal government has the right to run surpluses and put at least some of that surplus into repaying the debt. The Calgary Sun article points out that when Klein came into power, he undertook a series of what some considered harsh measures to bring the province's spending under control. Alberta was fiscally mismanaged by Klein's predecessor, and some short-term pain was necessary to turn things around, particularly in the early 1990s when oil revenues were not nearly so lucrative for the province. And I read recently that analysts from some of Canada's major financial houses felt that Ontario's deficit is not because of equalization, but because Ontario has been fiscally mismanaged over the past decade.

The first article B.Max linked to says that there may be a commission to review the situation. Of course there will be. With an election coming soon, Martin can't be fighting against the Ontario government. He needs to call a commission, and he needs it to last until at least March to make sure the election is over before the commission returns.

-k

[August1991]

Well, it appears that Terry Balash and McGuinty are using the same set of figures, at least. $1856 per Ontarion works out to $23 billion.

Per Ontarian? Each Ontarian does not contribute $1856.

May I make a point here, a cause for reflection.

"Ontario" does not pay taxes. People in Ontario do. There are some people in Ontario who a lot of taxes, and some people in Ontario who pay few taxes.

The transfers we are talking about do not occur between Ontario, Alberta and other provinces. The transfers occur between different people in Canada. In many cases, the transfer occurs within Ontario.

It happens that there are many people with high incomes in Alberta and Ontario and so as a result, those provinces appear to be "net" contributors.

[B. Max]

Well, it appears that Terry Balash and McGuinty are using the same set of figures, at least. $1856 per Ontarion works out to $23 billion.

Per Ontarian? Each Ontarian does not contribute $1856.

May I make a point here, a cause for reflection.

"Ontario" does not pay taxes. People in Ontario do. There are some people in Ontario who a lot of taxes, and some people in Ontario who pay few taxes.

The transfers we are talking about do not occur between Ontario, Alberta and other provinces. The transfers occur between different people in Canada. In many cases, the transfer occurs within Ontario.

It happens that there are many people with high incomes in Alberta and Ontario and so as a result, those provinces appear to be "net" contributors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is correct. It comes right off your paycheque and other various taxes. These are monies that should stay right in your own pocket.

[Riverwind]

That is correct. It comes right off your paycheque and other various taxes. These are monies that should stay right in your own pocket.

You could not make 'your' money if the gov't did not ensure that you have a stable, functioning social space in which you can work. Therefore, you have an obligation to pay your share of the costs of maintaining that stable social space.

It is reasonable to question whether everything that the gov't does is necessary and whether taxes are too high, however, it is unreasonable to suggest that you have an absolute right to keep every cent that you think you earn.

[B. Max]

That is correct. It comes right off your paycheque and other various taxes. These are monies that should stay right in your own pocket.

You could not make 'your' money if the gov't did not ensure that you have a stable, functioning social space in which you can work. Therefore, you have an obligation to pay your share of the costs of maintaining that stable social space.

It is reasonable to question whether everything that the gov't does is necessary and whether taxes are too high, however, it is unreasonable to suggest that you have an absolute right to keep every cent that you think you earn.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course no one has suggested that. However that is a far cry from what is actually happening in this country, and nothing, no matter how hard you try can justify outright theft even if it is the government doing the stealing.

[Riverwind]

Of course no one has suggested that. However that is a far cry from what is actually happening in this country, and nothing, no matter how hard you try can justify outright theft even if it is the government doing the stealing.

The current level of taxation exists because democratically elected gov'ts decided that was necessary. You may be a minority that disagrees with the priorities set by the majorities, however, that does not make the current gov't taxation levels the equivalent 'theft'. Taxes are taxes - period: love them or hate them they are a price we have to pay for a civilized society. Furthermore, using rhetoric that like that simply undermines any arguments you may have for lower taxes.

[B. Max]

Of course no one has suggested that. However that is a far cry from what is actually happening in this country, and nothing, no matter how hard you try can justify outright theft even if it is the government doing the stealing.

The current level of taxation exists because democratically elected gov'ts decided that was necessary. You may be a minority that disagrees with the priorities set by the majorities, however, that does not make the current gov't taxation levels the equivalent 'theft'. Taxes are taxes - period: love them or hate them they are a price we have to pay for a civilized society. Furthermore, using rhetoric that like that simply undermines any arguments you may have for lower taxes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nonsense. The theft and plunder of that which represents the expenditure of ones life energy is nothing short of slavery by a different name.

[Riverwind]

Nonsense.  The theft and plunder of that which represents the expenditure of ones life energy is are nothing short of slavery by a different name.

I suggest you get together with Hugo sometime. You can plan the overthrow of the gov't and establishment of anarcho-capitalist paradise together.

[B. Max]

Nonsense.  The theft and plunder of that which represents the expenditure of ones life energy is are nothing short of slavery by a different name.

I suggest you get together with Hugo sometime. You can plan the overthrow of the gov't and establishment of anarcho-capitalist paradise together.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps they'll make a spot for you in the tax museum that we can visit. After you are relegated to histories trash heap of failed socialist experiments.

http://www.tax.org/Museum/default.htm

[kimmy]

Well, it appears that Terry Balash and McGuinty are using the same set of figures, at least. $1856 per Ontarion works out to $23 billion.

Per Ontarian? Each Ontarian does not contribute $1856.

May I make a point here, a cause for reflection.

"Ontario" does not pay taxes. People in Ontario do. There are some people in Ontario who a lot of taxes, and some people in Ontario who pay few taxes.

The transfers we are talking about do not occur between Ontario, Alberta and other provinces. The transfers occur between different people in Canada. In many cases, the transfer occurs within Ontario.

It happens that there are many people with high incomes in Alberta and Ontario and so as a result, those provinces appear to be "net" contributors.

It depends how you wish to look at it, I suppose.

Ontarions pay taxes which are collected by the federal government and some of it is redistributed back to the provinces through CHST. But Ontario gets a far smaller share per capita than some of the poor provinces.

Ontario has to collect taxes to fund its share of health and social programs in the province too. If Ontario was receiving a larger share of the CHST (or a fair share, I suppose McGuinty would say) then Ontario could have a lower provincial tax rate. So, in a sense, this *is* coming out of the pockets of Ontario citizens.

Put another way, one could consider that Ontarions and Albertans pay taxes to their own provincial governments as well as to the governments of the have-not provinces.

-k

[mirror]

nothing, no matter how hard you try can justify outright theft even if it is the government doing the stealing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do some folks consider it stealing if the government takes money from you in the form of taxes, but not stealing if the multinational corporation, or any SMS business you are working for, for that matter, does NOT pay you a decent wage?

Just curious!

[mirror]

What needs to change in dollar figures, and where in the financial figures of BC, does one find the information for BC to become a HAVE province again? My uderstanding is that is is only in the last 5-10 years that BC became a HAVE NOT province.

I mean are we talking large sums of money or what, eh?

[apollo19]

What needs to change in dollar figures, and where in the financial figures of BC, does one find the information for BC to become a HAVE province again? My uderstanding is that is is only in the last 5-10 years that BC became a HAVE NOT province.

I mean are we talking large sums of money or what, eh?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BC is a have province in the sense that it gives more to the federal government then it recieves, however, it's per-capita income is behind that of the five middle-income provinces, and so that is where it gets the have-not from. Right there is the example why the equilization program doesn't work.