Disastor Waiting to Happan

[canadian_conservative]

I hope this topic hasn't already statrted but here it goes.

I really want peace to become of Palastine and Israel, but I don't see it happnening in my life time not at all. I think this Gazza Pullout is going to end in disastor. All the people who are against it are going to start blowing them selves up all over the place and taking hundreds of people with them thats how I see the up coming weeks ending up to.

Well other than that I can't name any way of how Israel and Palestine can make peace.

I don't know about you but this is going to be a disastor.

[Melanie_]

I never thought I would say this, but today I am an admirer of Ariel Sharon. This is not going to win him votes, hardline Israeli's will condemn him as a traitor, the Palestinians will misinterpret this as their victory, but he is finally doing the right thing in dismantling all the settlements in Gaza. Unfortunately, I agree with you, the right thing just may turn in to a disaster; Hamas sees this as capitulation to their tactics, and is already talking about how they can force further pull outs from the West Bank and Jerusalem. But is Isreal really giving in to terrorism, or doing what is moral and just in spite of terrorism?

[crazymf]

I am not pro jewish or anti jewish. I see Israel trying to do the right thing in the face of all odds. It's the Palestinians who want Israel destroyed totally and can't see that they are losing this battle. Israel pulling out may sway some Arab moderates sitting on the fence to put external pressure on the Palestinians to sincerly work for peace.

Now will be the time because if Sharon gets out of power and Netanyahu gets back in, watch out! I wouldn't be surprised to see the nukes come out. He's a war mongering bastard if I ever saw one.

[SirSpanky]

I think of all the political events of the past year or so, and this one surprises the most. Truly an enlightened act, although a shame the rest of his politician buddies don't share the sentiment.

It all rests on the new palestinian government. If they can curb the militants, it won't be a complete disaster. I shudder to think what the other result will be....

[Black Dog]

I see Sharon's shell game worked. All eyes are on the Gaza pullout, even as Iasrael consolidates its hold on the far more valuable West Bank, leaving the Paelstinians with a chunk of land surrounded on all sides by Israel, with Israel controlling its borders and airspace. All the talk of the bloody handed Sharon as being a man of peace is laughable.

[Shady]

I see Sharon's shell game worked

So you're against the Gaza withdrawal? What are your ideas related to correcting the Palestinian/Israeli problems?

[Black Dog]

So you're against the Gaza withdrawal? What are your ideas related to correcting the Palestinian/Israeli problems?

Well, my opinionsdon't really count for much, but the vast majority of Palestinians and a growing number of israelis support a two-state solution, wherein both exist side by side. In order to get there, though, Israel would have to withdraw completely from the West Bank and Gaza. Then and only then could real peace be negotiated. Israel's policy is being dictated by a small group of fanatics and is not in its broader interests.

[crazymf]

So you're against the Gaza withdrawal? What are your ideas related to correcting the Palestinian/Israeli problems?

Well, my opinionsdon't really count for much, but the vast majority of Palestinians and a growing number of israelis support a two-state solution, wherein both exist side by side. In order to get there, though, Israel would have to withdraw completely from the West Bank and Gaza. Then and only then could real peace be negotiated. Israel's policy is being dictated by a small group of fanatics and is not in its broader interests.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

..and the Hamas wants the total destruction of Israel no matter what they do. I think Israel is gaining world opinion by this move and the political pressure on the Palestinians to be positive will be enormous.

Eyes open and watching what happens.

[Black Dog]

and the Hamas wants the total destruction of Israel no matter what they do. I think Israel is gaining world opinion by this move and the political pressure on the Palestinians to be positive will be enormous.

If true: so what? Hamas =! the Palestinian people. Plus, with Israel out and the settlements gone, there'd be even less support for terrorist activities against Israel among the general population, thus depriving Hamas of a base of support.

[crazymf]

and the Hamas wants the total destruction of Israel no matter what they do. I think Israel is gaining world opinion by this move and the political pressure on the Palestinians to be positive will be enormous.

If true: so what? Hamas =! the Palestinian people. Plus, with Israel out and the settlements gone, there'd be even less support for terrorist activities against Israel among the general population, thus depriving Hamas of a base of support.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't really agree that Hamas represents all Palestinians. I would like to believe that some sense will prevail among peaceful Palestinians and they work toward a state of their own. History says otherwise which is why I'm just watching.

[Black Dog]

I don't really agree that Hamas represents all Palestinians. I would like to believe that some sense will prevail among peaceful Palestinians and they work toward a state of their own. History says otherwise which is why I'm just watching.

Oops. i meant != which is shorthand for "does not equal".I also fail to see why the onus is on the occupied to end their struggle and not on the occupier to end their occupation.

[crazymf]

I don't really agree that Hamas represents all Palestinians. I would like to believe that some sense will prevail among peaceful Palestinians and they work toward a state of their own. History says otherwise which is why I'm just watching.

Oops. i meant != which is shorthand for "does not equal".I also fail to see why the onus is on the occupied to end their struggle and not on the occupier to end their occupation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's loaded. I'm not touching it.

[Shady]

Israel would have to withdraw completely from the West Bank and Gaza

Well, Israel has withdrawn completely from Gaza, so I don't understand your previous rant. And according to many Israeli officials, as well as Prime Minster Sharon, they are willing to withdraw from virtually all of the West Bank. However, for this to happen, the Palestinians will have to control their violent fanatics.

[Shady]

I also fail to see why the onus is on the occupied to end their struggle and not on the occupier to end their occupation

Well, much of the territory "occupied" by Israel is land acquired during the many wars instigated by the various surroundeing Arab countries. Several wars to be exact. Back in the day, when the destruction of Israel was paramount.

[Black Dog]

Well, much of the territory "occupied" by Israel is land acquired during the many wars instigated by the various surroundeing Arab countries. Several wars to be exact. Back in the day, when the destruction of Israel was paramount.

Actually, the West Bank and Gaza strip were captured in the one war Israel started, the Six Day War.

[Shady]

Actually, the West Bank and Gaza strip were captured in the one war Israel started, the Six Day War

Yes, you are correct. However, it's a fact that these lands were being used as a staging ground by the surrounding Arab countries in their efforts to destroy Israel. I don't fault Israel for being pro-active in it's defense, especially when one examines history from the creation of Israel up to 1967. However, I really don't want to get into the long drawn out history of the region.

I hear that the Palestinians would be happy if Israel would reduce itself to the pre-1967 border. This would be a welcome change of heart. Because, for the longest time, borders didn't matter, only the complete destruction of Israel.

[B. Max]

This doesn't sound like any war israel started.

http://hometown.aol.com/RChera/6daywar.html

If you launch an attack on someone and you lose, then you should lose that land. Otherwise what's the deterant not to. Anything else is like rewarding failure and saying have another try.

[Shady]

If you launch an attack on someone and you lose, then you should lose that land

That's true. Although, the occupation angle is just a smoke-screen. Even before any territory was occupied, they were seeking to completely destroy Israel. I hope, now, that attitude has changed.

[Guest eureka]

If you launch an attack on someone and you lose, then you should lose that land. Otherwise what's the deterant not to. Anything else is like rewarding failure and saying have another try.

How much of the United States should Canada occupy, then. The US failed in a couple of "attacks" on Canada. Are we telling them to have another try.

Personally, I don't think I want too much of it but I might take Vermont and New Hampshire.

[BHS]

How much of the United States should Canada occupy, then. The US failed in a couple of "attacks" on Canada. Are we telling them to have another try.

Personally, I don't think I want too much of it but I might take Vermont and New Hampshire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't recall hearing that Canada gained ground in 1812, much less that we occupied part of present day America post 1812, experienced decades of worldwide condemnation and later withdrew. But you're the history expert.

[Guest eureka]

Gaining ground was not the way it was phrased. We also gave ground in the border issues needlessly. Remember "54 or fight." we should have fought.

[Black Dog]

This doesn't sound like any war israel started.

"In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him. "

-Menachem Begin

"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.

--New York Times, May 11, 1997

"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

If you launch an attack on someone and you lose, then you should lose that land. Otherwise what's the deterant not to. Anything else is like rewarding failure and saying have another try.

But if you launch an attack and win, then its okay to keep the land? So conquest and invasion should be rewarded?

That's true. Although, the occupation angle is just a smoke-screen. Even before any territory was occupied, they were seeking to completely destroy Israel.

The occupation really began in 1948. The occupation of additional territories was merely an extension of the original crime.

[BHS]

The occupation really began in 1948. The occupation of additional territories was merely an extension of the original crime.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Total BS.

[Black Dog]

Sorry to challenge the orthodoxy, but Israel was founded by military colonization and ethnic cleansing. Deal with it.

[BHS]

Sorry to challenge the orthodoxy, but Israel was founded by military colonization and ethnic cleansing. Deal with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but Israel is a sovereign state no matter what it's origins. Deal with it.