Paul Martin - SLIME

[JerrySeinfeld]

I've smeared Martin in the most graphic terms in this forum in an effort to get his supporters to stand up for him... and nobody has ever bothered. The conclusion I've come up with is that the only thing Liberal supporters like about Paul Martin is that he's not Stephen Harper; that seems to be sufficient.

Unfortunately, I agree. Paul Martin has been a disappointment as PM. The fact that he has been in crisis management mode for the entire time does explain some of it, however, there has been a disappointing lack of anything I would call leadership.

That said, I have more faith in the Liberals to muddle through the mess than I have in the Conservatives to clean it up. What I would like to see is a national party like the BC Liberals: a mix of socreds and red tories which seem to manage the right combination of the right wing economic ideology and common sense. Most importantly, the BC Liberals do not touch social issues like SSM with a 10 foot pole.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

COnsdier this: perhaps your perception of the Cons has more to do with what the Liberals say about them than what they have actually done wrong as a party.

Defending the traditional definition of marriage and attempting to topple a corrupt government and defeat $5 Billion in "vote buying" in the NDP add-on budget is hardly a terrbible track record.

[Riverwind]

[COnsdier this:  perhaps your perception of the Cons has more to do with what the Liberals say about them than what they have actually done wrong as a party.

Defending the traditional definition of marriage and attempting to topple a corrupt government and defeat $5 Billion in "vote buying" in the NDP add-on budget is hardly a terrible track record.

Actually - yes it is.

The SSM marriage issue is red herring. It is irrelevant what parliament does on this issue because the courts have already spoken. However, by championing this issue despite bad polls, Harper shows that he beholden to social conservatives in his party. Makes me wonder what will happen if the Conservatives got a majority: would abortion be next on his list things that are destroying the family?

The $4.5 billion spending spree only happened after Harper the opportunist decided to try to topple the gov't. If Harper had supported the original budget as he promised then there would have been no spending spree and the corporate tax cuts would still be in place.

In fact, if Harper had just stepped back and let the Liberals impale themselves he would likely be enjoying the same approval ratings that Jack Layton has now. All of his actions indicate that he has very poor instincts as a leader and would not likely be a good choice to lead the country (remember that Harper would have committed Canadian troops to Iraq: more evidence of bad judgment).

[I miss Reagan]

Obviously Scott Brison is having a hard time comprehending freedom of speech. Anyway Martin will go down in history as a lousy leader with little character. True he may have accomplished getting the SSM through, but he did it through slimey means. I was happy when Martin finally ousted "da little guy", now I'm not sure which is worse, a guy who will be jerk to your face or ditherer who will do or say anything to stay in power. Not surprisingly, one who supports an equally unethical turncoat is rabidly defending the dirty ditherer.

[Argus]

But if all the taxpayers leave there won't be anyone for you and your friends to steal from.

Well fucko, considering they don't steal NOBODY. However it would be nice to live in a country where some people's social policies weren't taken from the 18th century.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You seem to be stressed out. Is it because everywhere you go people put their hands on their wallets? When you go into stores does the security guard follow you around? The moment anything goes missing at the welfare office where you collect your cheque or the gay bar you spend it do all eyes turn to you? Is it hard admitting that you support a party of liars, cheats, thieves and criminals? Or is it how this reflects on your own lack of morality, morals, integrity and honesty?

[Argus]

Guess what? He's our Prime Minister. And the worst of it is, the morons in Ontario are going to re-elect him.

The people of Canada may re-elect the Liberals because the the CPC cannot seem to get its act together. For starters CPC supporters seem to have this habit of insulting the people that have the votes that they need.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uhm, I'm from Ontario. And I agree with him. The voters of Ontario are morons.

[Argus]

But if all the taxpayers leave there won't be anyone for you and your friends to steal from.

Well fucko, considering they don't steal NOBODY. However it would be nice to live in a country where some people's social policies weren't taken from the 18th century.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OOHHHHHH!!! I SEE NOW!! How SILLY of me. So STEALING from your taxpayers, bribing federal officials, BUYING votes, flipflopping on policy and electioneering to cling to power are PROGRESSIVE policies.

My sinscerest of apologies, oh lord Brison.

And I suppose the values that the conservatives hold: integrity, honesty, sticking to your guns and trying to win power based honestly are OUTDATED ideas.

What a joke.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am SO happy this legislation was passed so that the scum of the Earth like you and you're ilk will have to start getting used to the idea you can't wrap yourself in the bible when you want to advocate HATE anymore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People like this are always effusive about their love for Canada and what a great country it is. But when you dig, and you don't have to dig very far, you find they have this incredible level of hatred and contempt for a huge chunk of Canadians. I mean, even with Quebec about half of Canadians don't want SSM. If you ignore Quebecers, most of whom, quite frankly, want nothing to do with the Brisons of this world, that number goes even higher.

And they're the scum of the Earth! So about 60%-65% of people outside Quebec are the scum of the Earth to him. And he loves Canada. Okaayyyyyy.

[Argus]

Does it make any sense to blame the customer if you have a product to sell and they don't want to buy it? I don't think so. The correct thing to do is fix the product and make it something that people want to buy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Joe: "I need to get some toothpaste."

Ann: "Here's some Colgate."

Joe: "Oh no! I never buy that stuff. It's made by Satanists!"

Ann: "Uhm, it is?"

Joe: "I heard that little sign on the box is the devil's sign!"

Ann: "That's uhm, stupid."

Joe: "Are you some kind of devil worshiper! I'm not buying it. I"m buying Grool!"

Ann" "But Grool costs more and makes your teeth turn green."

Joe: "I know but that's better than giving money to the devil!"

Ann: "Okaaaayyyyy."

[Argus]

Pepsi would get sued too if Pepsi went around calling the Coke executives a bunch of crooks because few embezzlers were discovered within the organization.

The Conservatives are as guilty as the Liberals when it comes to throwing dirt at their opponents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We're not talking about people who stole from their company. We're talking about people who stole from us and cheated us - for many years. Don't think Coke, think Enron. Because just as nobody believed their CEO didn't know what was going on - almost nobody believes Paul Martin didn't know what was going on.

[politicalman]

Paul Martin is a disgusting hypocrite of a politician: the worst of the breed for flip flopping on everything to please the voter's current mood.

1. 1999 voted to MAINTAIN the traditional definition of marriage. "We will never change the definition of marriage" said the Libs. Today, it's his greatest rallying cry in the defense of "human rights" -- what a FLIPFLOP.

2. In his tenure as fiinance minister, he slashed federal health transfers in HALF. Then in 2004 his election campaign paints himself as the "saviour of health care -- a fix for a generation". FIX? Fix what, Paul? Fix the disastor you yourself created in health care?

3. ADSCAM. In 2004 Paul Martin called a snap election before he had even CALLED the Gomery commission. He reasoned: "I want to know what happened as much as anybody does, but lets have an election FIRST" Then he calls Gomery AFTER the election and less than a year later asks the Canadian public for a 10 month extension before the next election because "we need all the information first before we have an election" HUH? You called an election one year ago before we had ANY information, now you want to wait until after ALL the information comes out? Which is it, PAUL? Or does your election timing have everything to do with clinging to power? This is the most blatant example as to why we should have FIXED election dates in this country.

4. National Unity. The Liberals with ADSCAM and their cash-filled envelopes are the SOLE reason sovereignty has ANY life at all in Quebec. Then Martin turns around in the budget vote and accuses the CPC of "jeopardizing federalism" by voting with the Bloc against the budget. What a JOKE.  The Liberals have jeopardized sovereignty in this country by stealing from federal coffers and trying to buy Quebec votes.

5. Intergrity in Office. Paul Martin's CHIEF of STAFF is caught on tape speaking at length for over two hours dangling senate and cabinet posts in front of a CPC backbencher in exchange for his vote (or for abstaining). Everyone who has an assistant KNOWS they don't enter into those kinds of conversations without the knowledge of their BOSS. Paul Martin attempted to bribe MPs (and perhaps actually did it: Belinda), once again, to cling to power for a few measly months.

This guy is a complete SNAKE with NO integrity at all.

Guess what? He's our Prime Minister. And the worst of it is, the morons in Ontario are going to re-elect him.

I am absolutely disgusteed at the state of affairs in this country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well Canada really needs to shape up and smell the coffee. At the same time, we are not in the mood for an election at this time but with the way things are going, we may be forced to go to the polls in the fall. Its like in Italy, they have elections every year because their political mirror is cracked.

[Riverwind]

We're not talking about people who stole from their company. We're talking about people who stole from us and cheated us - for many years. Don't think Coke, think Enron.  Because just as nobody believed their CEO didn't know what was going on - almost nobody believes Paul Martin didn't know what was going on.

Depends on what you are talking about: did Martin know that sponsership contracts were going to Liberal friendly firms? Probably. Did he know that mafia like extortion was going on? Probably not until quite late in the game. It was a Martin supporter who took the stand at Gomery who was the first person to try and clean up the mess. It is probably reasonable to assume that he heard rumors like everyone else on parliment hill - does that me he was responsible for creating the mess in the first place? Not at all.

[willy]

did Martin know that sponsership contracts were going to Liberal friendly firms? Probably. Did he know that mafia like extortion was going on? Probably not until quite late in the game. It was a Martin supporter who took the stand at Gomery who was the first person to try and clean up the mess. It is probably reasonable to assume that he heard rumors like everyone else on parliment hill - does that me he was responsible for creating the mess in the first place? Not at all.

Case study.

Do you think Kenneth Lay (CEO Enron):

Should have gone to jail

Lost his job

Been responsible to pay back some of the money.

Many have said he should of known more, he was the boss. Oh ya and in corporate governance the CFO would also be responsible.

So why is Martin still in charge?

[Guest eureka]

The problem with attacking Martin in extreme terms, Kimmy, is that you will be taken for a crackpot like so many of those who are using extreme terms in this "discussion."

I opposed Martin from his days as Finance Minister. I opposed him for his methods chosen to "cure" the deficit. I don't oppose him for much else other than the near suicidal struggle with Chretien.

Isn't it interesting how all this Right Wing fury comes down to nothing more than slander. unfounded allegations and insiuations.

This government does not have a great track record so far, but it is not all that bad considering the obstructionism it has had to deal with. With a little prodding from the NDP, it has moved to the right track - as in moving away from the "Right" track.

[JerrySeinfeld]

The problem with attacking Martin in extreme terms, Kimmy, is that you will be taken for a crackpot like so many of those who are using extreme terms in this "discussion."

I opposed Martin from his days as Finance Minister. I opposed him for his methods chosen to "cure" the deficit. I don't oppose him for much else other than the near suicidal struggle with Chretien.

Isn't it interesting how all this Right Wing fury comes down to nothing more than slander. unfounded allegations and insiuations.

This government does not have a great track record so far, but it is not all that bad considering the obstructionism it has had to deal with. With a little prodding from the NDP, it has moved to the right track - as in moving away from the "Right" track.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All I have done in this thread is speak the truth.

All the Liberals seem able to come back with is glossing over the truth and again trying to point the finger at those nasty right wingers.

Why don't thre Liberals look in the mirror and examine the disgracenthey have turned our parlaiment into, instead of trying to blame everything on the party that isn't even in power.

[politicalman]

The problem with attacking Martin in extreme terms, Kimmy, is that you will be taken for a crackpot like so many of those who are using extreme terms in this "discussion."

I opposed Martin from his days as Finance Minister. I opposed him for his methods chosen to "cure" the deficit. I don't oppose him for much else other than the near suicidal struggle with Chretien.

Isn't it interesting how all this Right Wing fury comes down to nothing more than slander. unfounded allegations and insiuations.

This government does not have a great track record so far, but it is not all that bad considering the obstructionism it has had to deal with. With a little prodding from the NDP, it has moved to the right track - as in moving away from the "Right" track.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All I have done in this thread is speak the truth.

All the Liberals seem able to come back with is glossing over the truth and again trying to point the finger at those nasty right wingers.

Why don't thre Liberals look in the mirror and examine the disgracenthey have turned our parlaiment into, instead of trying to blame everything on the party that isn't even in power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well put and there is nothing wrong with what you said.

[Riverwind]

Many have said he should of known more, he was the boss. Oh ya and in corporate governance the CFO would also be responsible.

So why is Martin still in charge?

The CFO is not automatically expected to know if some middle managers are embezzling funds from the company. That is what happened in sponsership scandal.

[Guest eureka]

I think we will all agree that you speak the truth as you see it, Jerry. That is what is so sad about your posturing. You post constantly as though the truth was revealed to you on your birthing day. Not that you have had an epiphany since that would suggest that you once had an open mind.

You actually are rarely even close to trtuh and make it clear that you will never let anything outside of your limited supply of information find a way into your mind.

[Riverwind]

All I have done in this thread is speak the truth.

Sorry, exaggerating facts to suit your own political objectives is not 'truth'.

All the Liberals seem able to come back with is glossing over the truth and again trying to point the finger at those nasty right wingers.

And you keep calling Liberal supporters morons because they do not share your opinion. I have made it clear on this forum that I would consider supporting Harper and company, however, every time I get my hopes up Harper goes off on some useless ideological crusade instead of providing a positive vision for the country.

Why don't the Liberals look in the mirror and examine the disgracenthey have turned our parliament into, instead of trying to blame everything on the party that isn't even in power.

I am more than willing to criticise Martin and crew when they make mistakes, but I will not buy the 'all liberals are corrupt' crap that the conservatives want to shove down everyone's throat. If the conservatives want to be gov't they they have to give people a reason to vote for them. 'The other guys are crooks' argument does not get votes when most people realize such statements are gross exaggerations.

[Cartman]

That is what is so sad about your posturing. You post constantly as though the truth was revealed to you on your birthing day.

Eureka, what's not enlightening about the use of "slime", "disgusting hypocrite", "morons", "simplton", "lying", "thieving", "shut your mouth"? And in only one thread.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I think we will all agree that you speak the truth as you see it, Jerry. That is what is so sad about your posturing. You post constantly as though the truth was revealed to you on your birthing day. Not that you have had an epiphany since that would suggest that you once had an open mind.

You actually are rarely even close to trtuh and make it clear that you will never let anything outside of your limited supply of information find a way into your mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice try.

I spent most of my college years as a socialist and most of my 20's as a Liberal supporter.

The disgusting lying behavior of this government has pushed me away.

[JerrySeinfeld]

That is what is so sad about your posturing. You post constantly as though the truth was revealed to you on your birthing day.

Eureka, what's not enlightening about the use of "slime", "disgusting hypocrite", "morons", "simplton", "lying", "thieving", "shut your mouth"? And in only one thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Martin IS a disgusting hypcrite (see SSM and health care policies past and present). The Liberals DID steal federal funds (see THIEVES), and the PM's office DID dangle cabinet posts for votes (SEE SLIME).

Again: I speak only the truth.

It's not my fault you choose to go through the world with blinders on.

[JerrySeinfeld]

It's so tiresome people reacting with complete shock that someone call -- oh my god -- PAUL MARTIN derogutory names.

Think of the backhanded, deietful, flipflopping, opporttunistic way with which he has handled his affairs, himself, this government, the PMO, ADSCAM, timely electioneering, vote buying,bribery...

If someone in a regular business handled themselves with such utter and blatant disregard for ethics they would never do business again in this country.

The Lib supporters should stop cheerleading and see him for what he is.

"oh my god how dare you say that about our fearless leader!"

I will have you all know I am without political affiliation; none of this countries political parties speak for me. No where is this more clear in my "new political party" thread. I like and dislike aspects of each of the major parties.

But when I see someone handle themselves with such a complete lack of regard for anything ethical and clinging to power as pathetically and dishonestly as Paul Martin has, I am truly, utterly disgusted by the state of affairs in our democracy.

Shed your colours, people. Take off your blinders.

Consider the possiblibility that the people that lead your favorite party may actually be capable of terrible, slimey behavior. The evidence is all around you. All you have to do is look.

[JerrySeinfeld]

This deserves another look:

Everyone should take this test:

http://www.torsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists...105189-sun.html

[Riverwind]

Consider the possiblibility that the people that lead your favorite party may actually be capable of terrible, slimey behavior.  The evidence is all around you.  All you have to do is look.

I would agree that I am not happy with everything that Martin has done. But what should I do? Vote for a party that promises to do things that I oppose? I am like you in the sense that there is no political party that truely represents my views. As a result, I am forced to choose the less of all evils which for me happens to be the Liberals at this time.

What you can't seem to get out of your head is all of the mud you are throwing at the Liberals is not fact: it is partisan opinion. Most importantly, people who are not willing to buy into your version of the reality are not deluded or stupid: they just have different priorities.

[politicalman]

This deserves another look:

Everyone should take this test:

http://www.torsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists...105189-sun.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am gonna check that link out. And yes, leaders, political colours, they are all the same. We may see these leaders as heroes or people to represent our opinion, but in the end, they are human and tempted to satisfy their own interests.

www.sirjohnmag.ca

[JerrySeinfeld]

Consider the possiblibility that the people that lead your favorite party may actually be capable of terrible, slimey behavior.  The evidence is all around you.  All you have to do is look.

I would agree that I am not happy with everything that Martin has done. But what should I do? Vote for a party that promises to do things that I oppose? I am like you in the sense that there is no political party that truely represents my views. As a result, I am forced to choose the less of all evils which for me happens to be the Liberals at this time.

What you can't seem to get out of your head is all of the mud you are throwing at the Liberals is not fact: it is partisan opinion. Most importantly, people who are not willing to buy into your version of the reality are not deluded or stupid: they just have different priorities.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll say it again: it is NOT partisan. But you're right. It's how I see it. I have provided my reasons.

Now instead of attacking me ad hominem why don't you try to refute?