Harper's Strategy

[August1991]

Harper must say - Nathan Phillips style - "I will be a prime minister for all Canadians."

Torontonians once voted for a Jewish mayor. Ontarians may vote for a Calgarian Prime Minister.

[Newfie Canadian]

Good call August.

A new poll out suggests that Harper still has work to do to shed the "hidden agenda" problem that plagued the CPC in the last election.

Cdns. suspicious of a Tory hidden agenda: poll

Of the 1,000 people surveyed, 57 per cent said they believed Harper's Tories are keeping their most unpopular plans under wraps -- plans that many Canadians might find unpalatable should they come to fruition under a Conservative government.

[PocketRocket]

I would actually like to see the Tories come to power for a while.

But Harper is not the man to take them there.

Too many people simply don't trust the man.

I think the biggest mistake the party made was letting Preston Manning be removed as leader. Canadians outside of the west were finally starting to take him seriously, and he had a sort of credibility that Harper lacks.

Nope. I'd like to see the Tories in, but not with Harper at the helm.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Rocket, I agree that Preston was starting to build some credibility just at the moment he got yanked. But his later ruminations since leaving office have been bizarre and nigh unto toxic, so it is a relief they turfed him before he became dangerous.

August, your comment suggested that there is a regionalistic motivation for accepting or rejecting Harper or other leaders of the Alliance cum Tories. I think that interpretation is mistaken. Ontario voters don't think in terms of regional origins. I don't mean they 'nobly turn their minds from human stereotype to higher and truer assessments'. I mean that regionalism is simply, by happenstance, not high among elements of their bounded-rationality voting. If you're not from her 'municipal concession of principal residence', an Ontario voter couldn't really care less where else you might be from.

[kimmy]

I think the biggest mistake the party made was letting Preston Manning be removed as leader. Canadians outside of the west were finally starting to take him seriously, and he had a sort of credibility that Harper lacks.

Nonsense.

This recasting of Manning as a sincere and scholarly man began only after he was turfed from leadership; prior to that he was fitted with the same "scary religious kook" label that has since been applied to Day and Harper. Perhaps it was just contrast with Day that made Manning seem mild by contrast, or perhaps it was the fact that with Manning retired from politics there was no further need to depict him as some sort of theocrat, or perhaps it's a blend of both. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure that the theory that he was just picking up steam at the time he was deposed is revisionism.

-kimmy

[Guest eureka]

Hidden agenda will do for the naive. It is not that which is dangerous. It is the knowm agenda. Devolution of powers and taxing authority: removal of the federal authority from just about everything. An end to social caring and the kind of dog-eat-dog society that we have not seen since the second World War.

With VE day coming up, it might be instructive to ask some vets if they fought for the kind of socirty that the "Conservatives" would bring us, or for the breakup the Bloq favours. I suspect some would rather use their weapons against Harper and Duceppe.

As for strategy, Harper is vastly overrated as a strategist. He showed that in the last election and he is showing it again now. The backlash is just building.

[PocketRocket]

Nonsense.

This recasting of Manning as a sincere and scholarly man began only after he was turfed from leadership; prior to that he was fitted with the same "scary religious kook" label that has since been applied to Day and Harper. Perhaps it was just contrast with Day that made Manning seem mild by contrast, or perhaps it was the fact that with Manning retired from politics there was no further need to depict him as some sort of theocrat, or perhaps it's a blend of both. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure that the theory that he was just picking up steam at the time he was deposed is revisionism.

-kimmy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nonsense??? Now Kimmy, that really cuts me to the core.

Manning, despite labels applied to him by others, always seemed, to use your word, milder. To watch him speak, he had the air of an man of intellect.

I don't much pay attention to labels applied by others, I like to form my own opinion, and I always liked Manning, from the first time I saw him speak.

Voted for Reform on a couple oocasions.

Harper, and this is my opinion alone, simply gives me the creeps.

Manning always SEEMED to recognize the necessity to temper his own beliefs to suit the political landscape and the times.

Harper SEEMS to be biding his time until he gets in power, at which point he'll force his beliefs down our collective throats.

This is the way it SEEMS to me.

Personal perspective, that's all.

But a lot more people seem to be alarmend by Harper than they were by Manning.

[fracan]

Could we please leave the veterans out of this? Do you honestly think Canadians went to war to defend their political party of choice? That's rubbish. I can guarantee you no veteran would like to turn his/her weapons on any political leader in this country.

Hidden agenda will do for the naive. It is not that which is dangerous. It is the knowm agenda. Devolution of powers and taxing authority: removal of the federal authority from just about everything. An end to social caring and the kind of dog-eat-dog society that we have not seen since the second World War.

All it would mark an end to is federally imposed social caring... You're more than welcome to vote in a provincial NDP government and enjoy all the "social caring" you want. The difference would be we wouldn't have it shoved down our throats by Ottawa.

[Guest eureka]

Why would we leave the veterans out of it? Is it because it makes you uncomfortable to know that they have been betrayed and that the betrayal does not matter to you?

Veterans fought - and came home to determine - that they would never again go through the brutality they left. They fought for equality and social justice and they came home and established a society of their thinking. That has been whittled away by successive governments to the point where the NeoLibs now think they can deal the final blows. That is what the so-called "Conservatives are about.

And I know it. Your generation is a pathetic one that appears to need a new Depression to teach it the values of sacrifice and fairnes.

As O posted somewhere else; "Owell said that Fascism is the counter attack of Capitalism." We are seeing that in full force over the past two decades or so.

[cybercoma]

As far as strategies go, I'm sick of the Liberal Party claiming it's the glue that keeps this country together. The only reason Ontarians keep voting them in is fear. Finally, Stephen Harper began playing the same card today by saying Alberta and Quebec will be furious if the Liberals win another election. He has turned the tables on the Liberal Party by playing their own game of fear-mongering against them.

Quite frankly I think this is a cheap way to play and I'm sick of the Liberals doing it and equally disappointed in Harper using the same tactic now.

[kimmy]

As far as strategies go, I'm sick of the Liberal Party claiming it's the glue that keeps this country together.  The only reason Ontarians keep voting them in is fear.  Finally, Stephen Harper began playing the same card today by saying Alberta and Quebec will be furious if the Liberals win another election.  He has turned the tables on the Liberal Party by playing their own game of fear-mongering against them.

Quite frankly I think this is a cheap way to play and I'm sick of the Liberals doing it and equally disappointed in Harper using the same tactic now.

You're stabbing the veterans in the back if you don't vote Liberal.

You're quite literally taking a crap on the poppies of Flander's Field if you don't vote Liberal.

The country will split up if you don't vote Liberal.

Teenaged homosexuals will be rounded up and sent to Christian Camp for reprogramming if you don't vote Liberal.

Molson Canadian will be replaced with Coors Light if you don't vote Liberal.

Swarthy people will be deported if you don't vote Liberal.

The Maple Leaf will be torn up and replaced with the Red Ensign if you don't vote Liberal.

The hopes and dreams of starving African children will be crushed if you don't vote Liberal.

The maple syrup will run dry if you don't vote Liberal.

The beavers will die of grief if you don't vote Liberal.

Haven't you heard? It's the end of the world if you don't vote Liberal.

-kimmy

{anticipating campaign ads featuring a teary-eyed little beaver clutching a Canada Flag.}

[scribblet]

I tend to agree with you on that, I admire Preston Manning. The problem is lots of people buy into the smear campaigns about the 'hidden agenda' well, the hidden agenda is right there on their website, but nobody reads it (or they ignore it). I would love to see Preston Manning come back but in the meantime, Harper is the leader .

The CPC is not doing a good job at articulating its message and is overshadowed by the liberal attack machine. Sheeples buy into it and have selective amnesia when it comes to electing liberals. cheers

I would actually like to see the Tories come to power for a while.

But Harper is not the man to take them there.

Too many people simply don't trust the man.

I think the biggest mistake the party made was letting Preston Manning be removed as leader. Canadians outside of the west were finally starting to take him seriously, and he had a sort of credibility that Harper lacks.

Nope. I'd like to see the Tories in, but not with Harper at the helm.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest eureka]

Will all those things really happen, Kimmy? Or is it your overactive imagination? Could we not vote NDP and still avoid the disaster?

One day, you will apply your intelligence to the reality of what is and has happened and you will be regretful of flippancy in this time of crisis in our national affairs.

I take particular exception to your dismissal of veterans who fought and died to make this country what it was not long ago. Notably, all the backward moves and proposals are by those who have never seen a battlefield: and their support is from those who are too young to have ever experienced the deprivation that the veterans saved this generation from.

Every social programme this country had, but is slowly losing, is available to you because those veterans who returned demanded them. They determined that their children would not suffer as they and their parents had.

[cybercoma]

You're stabbing the veterans in the back if you don't vote Liberal.

You're quite literally taking a crap on the poppies of Flander's Field if you don't vote Liberal.

The country will split up if you don't vote Liberal.

Teenaged homosexuals will be rounded up and sent to Christian Camp for reprogramming if you don't vote Liberal.

Molson Canadian will be replaced with Coors Light if you don't vote Liberal.

Swarthy people will be deported if you don't vote Liberal.

The Maple Leaf will be torn up and replaced with the Red Ensign if you don't vote Liberal.

The hopes and dreams of starving African children will be crushed if you don't vote Liberal.

The maple syrup will run dry if you don't vote Liberal.

The beavers will die of grief if you don't vote Liberal.

Haven't you heard? It's the end of the world if you don't vote Liberal.

-kimmy

{anticipating campaign ads featuring a teary-eyed little beaver clutching a Canada Flag.}

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't tell you how badly I hope you're right!

[cybercoma]

Will all those things really happen, Kimmy? Or is it your overactive imagination? Could we not vote NDP and still avoid the disaster?

One day, you will apply your intelligence to the reality of what is and has happened and you will be regretful of flippancy in this time of crisis in our national affairs.

I take particular exception to your dismissal of veterans who fought and died to make this country what it was not long ago. Notably, all the backward moves and proposals are by those who have never seen a battlefield: and their support is from those who are too young to have ever experienced the deprivation that the veterans saved this generation from.

Every social programme this country had, but is slowly losing, is available to you because those veterans who returned demanded them. They determined that their children would not suffer as they and their parents had.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The National Crisis here is the Liberal Party holding this country ransom for more tax dollars to pad their bank accounts. Who are you kidding?

[Guest eureka]

Why do you not employ your brain for thinking instead of your scalp. The brain is better equipped to absorb and process information and to reason from that information.

[Argus]

Why would we leave the veterans out of it? Is it because it makes you uncomfortable to know that they have been betrayed and that the betrayal does not matter to you?

If the vets were betrayed it was by the Liberal Party of Canada, which destroyed the military they were so proud of and then proceeded to sell their country out from under them.

Veterans fought - and came home to determine - that they would never again go through the brutality they left. They fought for equality and social justice and they came home and established a society of their thinking.

This would be the society of the fifties, without public health care, pensions, unemployment insurance, or non-white immgiraiton?

[kimmy]

Will all those things really happen, Kimmy? Or is it your overactive imagination? Could we not vote NDP and still avoid the disaster?

That was not my prediction of the future under a Conservative government.

That was my prediction of the kind of messaging we are going to hear from PM PM and his friends over the next numerous months, especially during the election, whenever it comes.

To respond to your questions, no: I don't think those things will happen. If I did think those things would happen if we don't vote Liberal, I'd vote Liberal out of fear just like everybody else. No, it's not really my overactive imagination either-- my message was not an invention, just an exaggeration; we're already seeing the same sorts of themes emerging from the Liberals and their supporters. And no, voting NDP won't avoid the "disaster". Remember, kids: if you vote NDP, you're just helping Harper win. A vote for the NDP is a vote for putting gay kids in Christian Camps for reprogramming.

One day, you will apply your intelligence to the reality of what is and has happened and you will be regretful of flippancy in this time of crisis in our national affairs.

I simply don't believe there is a crisis. I believe that our country will be just fine under a different regime.

I take particular exception to your dismissal of veterans who fought and died to make this country what it was not long ago. Notably, all the backward moves and proposals are by those who have never seen a battlefield: and their support is from those who are too young to have ever experienced the deprivation that the veterans saved this generation from.

I don't dismiss the veterans. Not in the least!

What I dismiss is your claim to speak on their behalf; your insistance that your beliefs are theirs; your assertion that they went to war in Europe or Korea to fight for national childcare programs or same-sex marriages. By way of counterexample, I'll mention Stan Waters, WWII veteran and member of the original Reform Party.

I watch the Rememberance Day ceremonies every year, and when they interview the veterans the one common theme that emerges is that they fought for peoples' right to hold their own beliefs and vote as they choose in a free and democratic country.

-kimmy

[Guest eureka]

Why do think that in Britain, the Churchill Conservatives were thrown out and an era of social progress begun that lasted until Thatcher? IT persisted even under conservative government because until Thatcher Conservatives were conservative.

The same applied to Canada and the seeds for all our social progress in the last sixty years came out of WWII and lasted pretty much until Mulroney.

There is, indeed, a national crisis noe such as we have never experienced. It is about the threat of disintegration and the introduction of the "ugly face of Capitalism" to use Ted Heath's term.

And, I do not claim to speak for "all" veterans. There are Stan Walkers among them: those who have profited from inequality.

I do, however, know far more about veterans than most in these discussions. I do know about the impetus for social progress that came from them.

[Argus]

Why do think that in Britain, the Churchill Conservatives were thrown out and an era of  social progress begun that lasted until Thatcher? IT persisted even under conservative government because until Thatcher Conservatives were conservative.

Because people were tired of war and want, and Churchll had spent little time campaigning. As for an era of "social progress", what the postwar period did wazs sink the UK down from one of the world's foremost nations to a petty, third rate nation of no power and little prestige, its social services falling apart along with its ports, roads, rail networks, and industry. It took Thatcher to save it from complete collapse and bankruptcy.

The same applied to Canada and the seeds for all our social progress in the last sixty years came out of WWII and lasted pretty much until Mulroney.

You mean until the bills came due. That's always when reality smacks the pie in the sky leftists in their faces. Trudeau took a nation with virtually no debt and ran up a huge freaking debt load that was then doubled under the following years of high unemployment and high inflation.

There is, indeed, a national crisis noe such as we have never experienced. It is about the threat of disintegration and the introduction of the "ugly face of Capitalism" to use Ted Heath's term.

Capitalism; that horrible system which allows socialists to pay for all the lovely projects they dream up.

And, I do not claim to speak for "all" veterans. There are Stan Walkers among them: those who have profited from inequality.

You speak for no veterans. Most veterans would kick your ass for your whining and constant condemnation of all the things the veterans fought for and still fight for.

I do, however, know far more about veterans than most in these discussions.

Yes, he saw one out a cafe window once.

[last_niceguy]

Harper needs to slow down a bit on the paint job that he is slapping on the Liberals about the 'deal with the devil' and what not. We have to remember that we are still talking about Canadian politics, hardly forces of good and evil fighting for the souls of the world.

Harper needs to have a smooth platform and should focus on numbers and proofs rather then harsh claims about the Liberal party (they have killed themselves on their own and Canadians already know it).

Also, I have heard some people talk about how Harper is just try to get the 'old guys out of there' he needs to show how the 'old' guys are the ones who are very lazy in the leadership of the nation. I was just talking to my English teacher on Friday and we both agreed that the Liberals are too much like some secret clan in their upper powers. We don't need a party like that running our country because that is how we run into problems.

[Guest eureka]

Your ignorance is sublime, Argus: your arrogance insufferable. You must be younger than I thought.

[Argus]

Your ignorance is sublime, Argus: your arrogance insufferable. You must be younger than I thought.

Why thanks. I'd return the favour, Eureka, but your ignorance is not at all sublime. It's glaring. And arrogance is caused by a feeling of superiority.

Frankly, it's difficult not to feel superior to you.

[August1991]

Why do I have the sinking feeling that the exchanges in the House of Commons this week will be no better than the exchanges in this thread?

[Guest eureka]

Unfortunately, you may be right, August. What that coward said of me and other veterans, I would want a non verbal answer for if I were face to face.