Will Chretien do jail time?

[August1991]

I have heard both here in Quebec and in Ontario poeple suggest that Chretien will go to jail. What do you think?

On a related point, Chretien's lawyers will argue in Federal Court that Gomery should be removed. (PM PM apparently fast-tracked this to early June.) There will have to be eventually a public showdown between these two men.

Is this mere strategy on PM PM's part? (Pin the blame on the predecessor?) Or do these two guys genuinely hate each other? I find the latter hypothesis unlikely.

----

I don't agree that this is merely a scandal of the Liberal Party. I happen to think that many people in English Canada are finding themselves in the position of Quebecers during the Quiet Revolution. Or perhaps a better example would be Russians after Gorbachev.

Every thing Chretien said and did was based on falsehoods. English Canadians are finding this very difficult to accept yet the facts are there before them. They find even more difficult to contemplate that PM PM is also a fraud.

[cybercoma]

Come on now. You don't really think a politician will actually go to jail, do you? If they couldn't convict Air India guys, there ain't a chance in hell Chretien is getting one.

[kimmy]

As my feelings for Da Little Guy are well documented, I probably don't need to say much here. I will mention, however, that I find it a little amusing how quickly many people have turned against him. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here at the forum, just speaking generally... I enjoy that people who once would have fought tooth and nail defend the good name of Chretien are now prepared to make him the scapegoat for all of the problems that have befallen his party.

However, I'm not quite sure of what you mean here...

I don't agree that this is merely a scandal of the Liberal Party.  I happen to think that many people in English Canada are finding themselves in the position of Quebecers during the Quiet Revolution.  Or perhaps a better example would be Russians after Gorbachev.

...could you put that in a way that the less informed of me might better understand what you mean?

Every thing Chretien said and did was based on falsehoods.  English Canadians are finding this very difficult to accept yet the facts are there before them. They find even more difficult to contemplate that PM PM is also a fraud.

I think that for some people, their willingness to recast Chretien as a hatchet-wielding baby-killer is a reflection of their need to have somebody to blame for PM PM's problems. I myself have always wanted to believe that Martin is a better and more decent person at heart than Chretien. And for some of us who had high hopes for the "Martin Era" the feeling that Chretien had handed Martin a "poisoned chalice" (as media-types phrased it) was there from the beginning. However, I think the growing realization of just how much trouble the Liberals are in has converted a lot more people, who might have had no gripes with Chretien before, to this "poisoned chalice" point of view.

-kimmy

[Bro]

Not very likely. My sense on the matter is that quebec

leaving confederation on a liberal watch is something

that should never happen, and true to form,the liberal way of solving problems was applied, throw taxpayer money at it to solve the problem.

Chretien has already stated this,saying it was in the name of national unity.

What we need is a leading party to stop throwing taxpayer money at quebec. and to lay down ground rules for them if they wish to remain part of confederation.

Sadly,I do not think there is a party out there willing to do this.

[Argus]

I have heard both here in Quebec and in Ontario poeple suggest that Chretien will go to jail.  What do you think?

Most unlikely. The likelihood increases if the Tories kick the Liberals out and take over the levers of power, but not substantially so. The RCMP might try a little more (which is to say they might try a little) but unless they can get someone higher up like Jean Carle to name Chretien it'll be the little folk who get punished.

Remember that you can't convict in a court of law without actual evidence, and we've seen precious little which does more than hint at his involvement. We might all know he was involved, but knowing and proving are two different things. When the bean counters finish tracing the money we might find charges against higher ups, but even then, given the scarcity of anything written down on paper, charges against Chretien depend on believeable testimony from higher ups.

Every thing Chretien said and did was based on falsehoods.  English Canadians are finding this very difficult to accept yet the facts are there before them. They find even more difficult to contemplate that PM PM is also a fraud.

Not THIS English Canadian. I've been calling Chretien and Martin crooks for years.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear kimmy,

I enjoy that people who once would have fought tooth and nail defend the good name of Chretien are now prepared to make him the scapegoat for all of the problems that have befallen his party.

Hitler (not that there is any comparison to the level of 'crimes') was once beloved by millions, at home and abroad, but when the feces hit the fan, everyone blamed him and him alone. The 'adscam affair' has allegedly exposed deep corruption and neither Chretien nor Martin will ever be viewed in the same light again.

[August1991]

However, I'm not quite sure of what you mean here...

I don't agree that this is merely a scandal of the Liberal Party.  I happen to think that many people in English Canada are finding themselves in the position of Quebecers during the Quiet Revolution.  Or perhaps a better example would be Russians after Gorbachev.

...could you put that in a way that the less informed of me might better understand what you mean?

At the risk of sounding like a cultural studies paper (or RB), for many English Canadians, Jean Chretien and the Liberal Party presented an ideal of Canada. People believed in it.

In the Soviet Union, the Communist Party presented an ideal and in Quebec, it was the Catholic Church. In both these places, the ideal fell and many people felt bewildered at first.

I suspect many Canadians (Liberal, Trudeau-style nationalists) are starting to feel confused now. What is the old line about the stages of accepting death? Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance. This concerns accepting something one knows is true but doesn't want to accept. Or do I really mean cognitive dissonance?

In the case of the Liberals and Canadians, it means discovering that your spouse was sleeping around.

One response is to say "All politicians are corrupt". Another is to say "Let's not have an election now." I don't know if that's denial or bargaining.

----

I have been listening to radio phone-in shows while I've been driving and what strikes me is the reaction in English and French (this is Montreal-speak, sorry).

The English have a perverse stubbornness in their voice. And fear. These are 100% federalists in the Stephane Dion style. To them, the separatists are pure evil. Of course, they don't want an election and they don't trust Harper. They uniformly say that we should let Martin take care of this situation.

The French reaction is odd. Of course, there are the sovereignists but they are not rejoicing. (One theme is that this scandal has tarnished the reputation of Quebec as a whole.) But there are many French federalists who say Chretien is a crook, Martin is no better but this doesn't mean the end of Canada.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Every thing Chretien said and did was based on falsehoods. English Canadians are finding this very difficult to accept yet the facts are there before them. They find even more difficult to contemplate that PM PM is also a fraud.

Get a grip, August. I think Chretien was corrupt ... old-style (remember Mulroney?), unsurprising, corruption. But 'every thing' he said and did? No.

And I don't find it difficult to 'contemplate' that PM may be corrupt too. I just don't have any specific basis to be convinced of it.

[The Terrible Sweal]

At the risk of sounding like a cultural studies paper (or RB), for many English Canadians, Jean Chretien and the Liberal Party presented an ideal of Canada. People believed in it.

To be sure, a lot of Canadians believe in the idea of Canada, but a vanishingly small few would have said Jean Chretien represented this ideal.

The English have a perverse stubbornness in their voice.  And fear. These are 100% federalists in the Stephane Dion style.  To them, the separatists are pure evil. Of course, they don't want an election and they don't trust Harper.  They uniformly say that we should let Martin  take care of this situation.

HA! I suggest that the only thing that qualifies these comments as 'perverse stubborness' is the perspective you view them from.

The French reaction is odd.  Of course, there are the sovereignists but they are not rejoicing. (One theme is that this scandal has tarnished the reputation of Quebec as a whole.) 

Those particular Quebeckers strike me as extremely naive, or perhaps simply self-righteously deluded.

[kimmy]

At the risk of sounding like a cultural studies paper (or RB), for many English Canadians, Jean Chretien and the Liberal Party presented an ideal of Canada.  People believed in it.

Back in the "What is an Albertan?" thread, I wrote that the one time in my life I'd experienced what The Sweal refered to as "meaningless, imaginary tribalism" was during my time in Ottawa, and most graphically at Canada Day on Parliament Hill. That was when it was really driven home to me that there's something philosophically different at work that I'm just not a part of. I believe that this is the "ideal" of which you write; and as others have already pointed out, it is hardly universal in english Canada. If there's emotional angst or cognitive dissonance taking place over the slow-motion train-wreck of the LPC, I'm fairly confident that it's largely limited to those who are of a mind to don Maple Leaf war-paint, Maple Leaf ceremonial head-gear, chant Maple Leaf slogans, and so forth.

-kimmy

[Argus]

Back in the "What is an Albertan?" thread, I wrote that the one time in my life I'd experienced what The Sweal refered to as "meaningless, imaginary tribalism" was during my time in Ottawa, and most graphically at Canada Day on Parliament Hill. That was when it was really driven home to me that there's something philosophically different at work that I'm just not a part of. I believe that this is the "ideal" of which you write; and as others have already pointed out, it is hardly universal in english Canada. If there's emotional angst or cognitive dissonance taking place over the slow-motion train-wreck of the LPC,  I'm fairly confident that it's largely limited to those who are of a mind to don Maple Leaf war-paint, Maple Leaf ceremonial head-gear, chant Maple Leaf slogans, and so forth.

-kimmy

You aren't alone, Kimmy. As a long time resident of Ottawa I have watched Dominion Day, a rather sleepy, and casual celebration of our birthday, which used to be so typical of Canadians, turn into an over-the-top, American style, exercise in swaggering Nationalism. The Liberals thougt this was neccesary in order to fight seperatism, and so many credulous sheep followed them down the path to become crowing UberCanadians that I can only shake my head at the power of modern propaganda to work the ignorant herd.

Ironically, you can find some of these UberCanadians on this web site, sneering at American Nationalism and arrogance.

[Guest eureka]

Before deciding that Chretien should or shouldn't go to jail, would it not be reasonable to say what criminal offense he has been charged with? In my experience, that is the usual form and I don't think we have yet entered that neoLib world where jail time is for political opponents.

Except in Quebec, of course, where it is possible to spend a little time indoors for using English!

[August1991]

Before deciding that Chretien should or shouldn't go to jail, would it not be reasonable to say what criminal offense he has been charged with? In my experience, that is the usual form and I don't think we have yet entered that neoLib world where jail time is for political opponents.

Except in Quebec, of course, where it is possible to spend a little time indoors for using English!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suppose Chretien could be charged with obstruction of justice and conspiracy (criminal code) and electoral law violations (particularly under Quebec law).

It is not a question of political opponents (although Mulroney was falsely charged that way, at some expense to the Canadian taxpayer and greater expense to his reputation. The whole story of Mulroney deserves another thread.)

Will Chretien be charged? Who is defending Gagliano now? How many true friends do these guys have?