Canada without a Military?

[Argus]

I admit I don't have the facts at my fingertips, but total infantry is something under 7k, is it not?

Total numbers for just the Infantry would be around 4800 pers, keep in mind they are not the only Combat Arms ( fighting forces) in the Army there is Armoured Corps,Arty corps, Combat Engs, Combat Service Support. whose numbers round off at just above 16,000 personal.

I'm a little confused by the numbers. If total infantry are under 5k, where are the rest of these people coming from? We have under 100 tanks, I think, and haven't fired an artillery piece in anger since Korea. I'm guessing the great majority are in support?

I believe I once read that the CAF had more people human resources people than it had infantry. And more officers than enlisted personnel.

Yes you are right, an effective modern army requires 10 support pers for every combat arms pers deployed. However Canada does not have those numbers maybe a 6 to 1 ratio.

Mmm, I'm thinking that when you add in the civilian support element that tooth to tail ratio stretches considerably.

I don't know what percentage of CAF members ever wind up leaving Canada except on holidays, but my perception is they're by far the majority.

The army has approx 16,000 pers in total about 11 to 12,000 are deployablethe rest are unfit,medically or in a non deployable postion, such as the top command element...

Again, not to dispute the importance of support elements. It seems to me that we have too many clerks for too few riflemen. Of those 11-12k deployables most probably aren't because they're clerks and you don't need clerks in Afghanistan, or at least, not that many. Tanks are rarely, if ever deployed, nor is artillery.

Like i have said before you need a good 10 to 1 ratio to maintain the combat arms branch..All those clerks, you talk about take thier turns manning the defensive postions around each camp,

If you're a clerk attached to 2nd RCR, maybe, not if you're a clerk at NDHQ. And how many civilian clerks and administrators does ND employ?

I have always been in favour of increasing the numbers, particularly of infantry, but I bet streamlining the civilian element would save enough to pay for a lot more corporals.

[Army Guy]

Argus:

I'm a little confused by the numbers. If total infantry are under 5k, where are the rest of these people coming from? We have under 100 tanks, I think, and haven't fired an artillery piece in anger since Korea. I'm guessing the great majority are in support?

Yes however,

There are currently 3 Regts of armoured units, x2 are armed with LAV III, and Coyote recce vehs the last is armed with the leo tank.. Each has around 400 to 500 pers.

There are x 3 Arty Regtswho man the 81 mm mortars,105 mm towed guns, M109, these Regts are about 300 to 400 pers strong.

There is also Air defense element which falls under the Arty branch of which there are 2 units...each about 200 to 300 pers....they operate ADATS, 35 mm air defense guns, javlin mis sys, and operate the remote controled recce aircraft.

You forgot about the Combat Engineers,the guys that clear the mines, build stuff, .... there are x 3 Regts each about 400 to 500 strong....

then there is the combat service support guys, like HQ's and Sigs Regt, Field Amb,field hosp,Tac Hel sqn ,Svc Bn,

i think i got them all, "note" there are no civilians goverment workers taken on any operation...there are civilians companys hired to provide limited support services.

Mmm, I'm thinking that when you add in the civilian support element that tooth to tail ratio stretches considerably.

tooth to tail ratio is made up of those that can be deployed...Any cilvilain hired by DND can not be deployed during operations....that is what Soldiers are for.

Again, not to dispute the importance of support elements. It seems to me that we have too many clerks for too few riflemen. Of those 11-12k deployables most probably aren't because they're clerks and you don't need clerks in Afghanistan, or at least, not that many. Tanks are rarely, if ever deployed, nor is artillery.

I agree with you we need more Combat Arms personal with in the army...,but all those postions in Afgan have been carefully placed to ensure we have a well balanced Battle group, and the clerks are part of those numbers no less no more and just as important....

Armoured guys operate more than just tanks there are the Lav III and Coyote Recce veh....arty are deployed and have been deployed on most operations ,Cyprus, Bosina, and Afgan, manning 81 mm mortars or 105mm towed guns, and even the remote recce aircraft.....trust me it is a well balanced mission that has a sprinkling of all the elements the army has to offer.

If you're a clerk attached to 2nd RCR, maybe, not if you're a clerk at NDHQ. And how many civilian clerks and administrators does ND employ?

I have always been in favour of increasing the numbers, particularly of infantry, but I bet streamlining the civilian element would save enough to pay for a lot more corporals.

I think you have a perception that a military person only stays in one postion through out ones carear,one normally stays at one "posting" or place 5 to 8 yrs...depending on trade or rank,then is posted to another area or base, so a person posted to NDHQ "normally" will return to a field unit or another deployable unit, there have been cases where a person has been in a posting for a rather long period of time. but like i said before it is not the norm.

The Cilvilain element of DND plays a very critical role, it allows the military members to deploy, while that base or unit can still maintain it's job or function...for instance i'll use MILITARY VEH TECHS, while they are training or deployed cilvilian mechs can repair military vehs ensuring that they are available for training or other operations those vehs are needed. if they "the cilvilians" where not there they would have all that work awaiting for them when the military members got back for training or operations if anything they should be expanded in numbers and grow as the military numbers grow....