Sharia law in Ontario

[Slavik44]

guess you can stop feeling sorry for all those imaginary undeucated muslim women; they have the rest of us beat when it comes to getting an education in Canada.

Guess those Muslim women I know are not the exception to the rule eh,

What does a bachelors degree measure? I ask you this because I am thinking back to high school and a chinese friend of mine who was going to SFU to study buisness, although we all knew he didn't wan't to even he admitted he didn't want to, infact he seemed very depressed when the subject was brought up. He was more or less a Fine arts type student, and that is what he wanted to do. when I asked him why not just screw his parents and do what he wanted to do, he told me very simply that I wouldn't under stand, which is probabley true. I simply woudln;t understand sacrificing my own happiness just to make someone else happy. That being said, that is my objection to Sharia Law. I am not going to say that Muslims are not educated or even foriegners in Canada are un-educated. But I will argue that perhpas such consent may be done out of duty rather than choice. a bachelors degree measures education but it doesn;t measure the ability to choose, liek my friend who by all records consented to studying buisness at SFU, but it certainly wasn't through his will, and that woudl be what I am worried about. That perhaps in are attempt to be accomadating we are denying people the very thing they came to Canada for, freedom.

[caesar]

I simply woudln;t understand sacrificing my own happiness just to make someone else happy

Yes, of course YOU wouldn't. I am sure that he wasn't unhappy the rest of his lives. Mothers do it all the time.

[Slavik44]

I simply woudln;t understand sacrificing my own happiness just to make someone else happy

Yes, of course YOU wouldn't. I am sure that he wasn't unhappy the rest of his lives. Mothers do it all the time.

well of course the fact that he hasn;t lived the res tof his life, it woudl be ahrd to infer, but again If i spend 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year 30 years of my life in a career I am gonna want to make sure it is osmethign Iw ant to do. the point of this was to point out that even when people have a choice there cultural obligations still may follow them around, much more then it woudl other people.

[Argus]

Not likely Argus. I would bet we have you beat here in Vancouver. Will see about figures. How many elected politicians in Ontario are middle eastern of any religion?

BC immigrants tend to come from Asia and India. Eastern Canada gets more people from the Carribean, Africa and the middle east. I doubt anyone has figures on the ethnic backgrounds of politicians as it wouldn't be considered politically acceptable.

[Argus]

nadian statistics on the "poor uneducated Muslim women in Canada"

Nearly one in three Muslim women has a university degree, compared with one in five among all women.

19% reported having at least a Bachelors degree compared with 11.5% of all women.

Twice as many Muslim women hold masters (5%) and doctoral degrees (0.8%) as all women in Canada.

Nearly two-fifths (37 per cent) specialize in a science or engineering discipline compared with 31 per cent of all women.

Twice as many adult Muslim women compared to all adult women were enrolled in educational institutions for improving and upgrading their skills and qualifications.

Isn't it fun to play games with statistics? You can get them to say almost anything you want!

Gee, who woulda thought that musilm women, largely coming from societies where women are not permitted to work, much less expected to, would be more educated than Canadian women!?

Of course, they're not. Most of their so-called degrees are invalid by any western measure. And what these sorts of cites always leave out (not politically correct you know) is that even if statistically more <place immigrant group here> have "degrees" than in Canada more of them have no high school, or for that matter, any education, and and many, many more of them have no local language skills, and thus no real way of obtaining knowledge of their rights and choices in Canada.

[Argus]

Why would it be "racial prejudice"? Is islam a race? The islam that has emerged over the last 10 or 20 years is more of a totalitarian political ideology than anything. Your own ignorance is almost as blatant as your knee jerk Politically Correct use of the word "racist". Grow up. If muslim women in Ontario suffer from high levels of unemployment, it's because of the misogyny inherent to islam.

Since they are better educated than the rest of us

They aren't.

and are good workers;

You have some evidence of this?

if they are facing larger unemployment it is because they look middle easter/ Arabic.  that is racial prejudice. 

Or could it be they don't speak English? Gee, why would THAT be important?

[Argus]

Most of them wear westernized style clothing.  If they suffer unemployment it is probably due to racial prejudice.

Knowledge-intensive Workforce

The vast majority of Muslims rely on employment to earn their livelihood. Two of their characteristics are worthy of note. First, they are economic migrants, educated and skilled who add to the country's stock of knowledge, convert knowledge into ideas (patents) and into new expressions of old ideas (copyrights), and help create jobs. Twenty-seven per cent of the Muslims in the prime labour force, age group 25 to 44 years, have one or more university degrees, a proportion much higher than the 17 per cent for the population as a whole.

Your ignorance is showing.  Most Muslim women are getting well educated as I said.

No, my cynicism and knowledge is showing. I know something about the educational systems of the Muslim world, and they are poor enough for boys, infinitely worse for girls. In many cases the only thing they are educated in is the Koran. And Islam is also by far the most popular subject at post secondary institutions in many Muslim countries.

"Education of Muslim Children - Dr. Ibrahim B. Syed, Ph.D

Education is the birth right of every Muslim and Muslimah. Islam puts considerable emphasis on its followers to acquire knowledge. Investment in education is the best investment one can make, because it eventually leads to intellectual property. Intellectual property is the intangible property, which no one can steal or destroy. This is the property on which no Government can levy a tax. It was as a result of application of knowledge that Muslims were the superpower of the world for twelve centuries.

In the Western World the purpose of education is to provide for the economic prosperity of a nation. At a personal level the purpose of education is to acquire academic and professional skills that enable one to earn a respectable living with riches and fame, and also a luxurious and comfortable life. For a Muslim providing economic prosperity of a nation does not contradict his/her Islamic beliefs, however focusing the goals of education solely for the purpose of money making is unpalatable. Muslims want to impart Islamic education.

The vast majority of Muslims think that Islamic education means acquiring Islamic religious knowledge-study of Qur'an, Arabic, Hadith, Sunnah, Seerah, Fiqh, Islamic history, and allied subjects"

[caesar]

And some Jews study the Torah. These Muslim women are getting university degrees at a much higher rate than other Canadians. Give it up. Your Jewish prejudice is showing. The difference between the two groups is minimal even sharing the same holy grounds. Most Muslim countries are allowing women to be educated other than Afghanistan under the Taliban.

[Argus]

And some Jews study the Torah. These Muslim women are getting university degrees at a much higher rate than other Canadians. Give it up. Your Jewish prejudice is showing. The difference between the two groups is minimal even sharing the same holy grounds. Most Muslim countries are allowing women to be educated other than Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Almost all the Jews in Canada were born and raised here. Almost all the Muslims in Canada were born and raised in third world Muslim countries. There is a substantial difference.

[caesar]

Almost all the Jews in Canada were born and raised here. Almost all the Muslims in Canada were born and raised in third world Muslim countries. There is a substantial difference.

There is NO difference. They are all people consisting of good, bad, ugly, and prejudiced.

[RB]

Of course there is differences if greater than 80% of Muslims are 1st generation immigrants, their roots are still somewhere else. In order for people to be successful in this economy they have to adopt to the Canadian culture. They have to be open to learn new things, not haul their old burdens and place it on the shoulders of free people.

If you compare the Jewish women with the Muslim women as entrepreneur - the difference is ridiculous, and the conclusion is that Muslims need to integrate, and assimulate into mainstream to be successful not bring some old law and backward practices

Argus is right in measuring the success of people with the creation of wealth and how much people can contribute in the economy. Otherwise a burden exist on others to make some people happy. And I am paying enough taxes as it were.

I know for a fact that some of the degrees in the third world equivalent would be somewhere about a 2-3 college level education. If the language skills are poor, then life become difficult.

language eduation, reevaluation of education, retraining, job skills or order of the day for immigrants to be successful. I mean why do you think those 55,000 immigrant engineers are not having work, first their experience do not translate in the Canadian economy and is 30 years behind, plus their education is not recognise, and plus they have a language problem, then comes other problems with the internal systems in Canada.

It is difficult to tell someone who has attended university for x number of years here is a level of education reevaluated, it is shocking and I am afraid I have met too many of these shock people.

[kimmy]

Almost all the Jews in Canada were born and raised here. Almost all the Muslims in Canada were born and raised in third world Muslim countries. There is a substantial difference.

There is NO difference. They are all people consisting of good, bad, ugly, and prejudiced.

Context, caesar. Yes, of course there are all good, bad, and ugly among both immigrant and Canadian-born people of all faiths and traditions. Nobody is saying otherwise.

The key point is that people born and raised in Canada have a very solid grasp of the rights they are provided in this country. Immigrants, on the other hand, might not. How confident are you that the immigrant women who wind up in these Sharia courts will understand the rights they have in Canadian society? Even the graduates of the Tehran Institute of Good Hajib, or whatever education they received back home, might be poorly informed as to what protections they're entitled now that they're in Canada.

-kimmy

[caesar]

The key point is that people born and raised in Canada have a very solid grasp of the rights they are provided in this country. Immigrants, on the other hand, might not

Having worked with immigrants; I can tell you they have an extremely good grasp of rights that our country provides; in fact, they are much more aware of and take advantage of these rights very readily.

[Richie]

Having worked with immigrants; I can tell you they have an extremely good grasp of rights that our country provides; in fact, they are much more aware of and take advantage of these rights very readily.

Having met with immigrant muslims, I can tell you for a fact that many of these women that have arrived here in the last decade or so have no idea that women could even have rights in the first place! To expect them to understand their rights under the Charter is ludicrous to say the least. Social engineering does not always work out for the best...

Once agian, if you would like to express your dismay with the idea of Sharia courts operating in Ontario, please contact your MPP and let them know!

[The Terrible Sweal]

This would mean that, through the Arbitration Act, Ontario courts would be enforcing rulings based on a set of tribal laws developed in Arabia over 1,000 years ago.

That's also something of a distortion, and probably amounts to an appeal to bigotry. By the same logic, some might say the same about our laws, only the ancient geography is different.

Some might say that about our laws, but they'd be wrong. Our law is in constant evolution. Recognition of gay marriage is an example.

Many within the Muslim faith, on the other hand, reject the notion that law can evolve: God's law was given to mankind during the time of Mohammed, and screwing around with God's law is viewed in an extremely dim light.

-kimmy

A masterpiece of rhetoric, Kimmy, but conclusive of very little.

Some in the west challenge the notion that our laws can evolve, while some Muslims argue that Sharia can and does.

BTW, did anyone answer my question about what specific changes they wanted to the Arbitration Act?

[Richie]

It's obvious that Western laws do evolve; consider how the law treated women 100 years ago or the fact that the death penalty was abolished in Canada as a reflection of society's changing values.

Sharia is based on the Koran and the Hadith, neither of which can change (one being the "word of God" the other being the sayings and beliefs of the latest, greatest "prophet").

The Arbitration Act should only be used for commercial disputes. Family law should be removed from the Arbitration Act and no law based on any religion should be allowed in Canada.

[The Terrible Sweal]

The Arbitration Act should only be used for commercial disputes. Family law should be removed from the Arbitration Act and no law based on any religion should be allowed in Canada.

Okay. I'll buy that.

[kimmy]

A masterpiece of rhetoric, Kimmy, but conclusive of very little.

Some in the west challenge the notion that our laws can evolve, while some Muslims argue that Sharia can and does.

A masterpiece? You're too kind!

I think anyone in the west who disputes the notion that our laws can evolve is either delusional or in deep denial.

I did say "many" (not "most" or "all") in the Muslim faith believe that their laws can not be changed. Of particular interest are the Wahhabis, for whom traditionalism, literalism, and rejecting "innovations" to the Muslim faith were the central themes of their movement. Before you get the idea that this is a tiny remote sect comparable to the Snake-Handlers or similar fringe Christian groups, let me mention that Wahhabism is the state religion of Saudi Arabia, and that thanks to Saudi largesse, many of the new mosques built in Canada and elsewhere are of this conservative branch of Islam, and it is among the most rapidly spreading forms of Islam. You can agree, disagree, do your own research on the subject, get back to me if you wish, whatever, but I stand by the comment: a significant (and growing) number of Muslims do not believe it is permissible for the law to evolve.

-kimmy

[caesar]

It's obvious that Western laws do evolve; consider how the law treated women 100 years ago

You don't need to go back 100 years regarding laws affecting women.