Military/Weapons in Space

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

The Americans are completely innocent in this bizarre, invented, one-sided relationship

We've got Argus saying that the US is going to cut us off and Thelonious saying the US is a threat

For both of these, one only need look at a few things. The ongoing trade issues, and the rhetoric coming out of the US(there is some from both sides, admittedly) that if things do not heavily favour the US, things are unfair. After all, the US claims to have the most valuable people in the world, Americans. Their wants and needs far outweigh the wants and needs, and even the lives, of anyone in any other country in the world. When they act accordingly, they must be 'completely innocent', but only if these ideas of 'American superiority of the individual' are true.

I can't imagine why almost nobody in the world likes them.

[August1991]

Sorry, Thelonious, but that sounds like an Indian claiming Pakistan is a threat.

After all, the US claims to have the most valuable people in the world, Americans. Their wants and needs far outweigh the wants and needs, and even the lives, of anyone in any other country in the world.

Hyperbole and cant.

----

I can't imagine why almost nobody in the world likes them.

(Uh, two negatives?)

In any case, many people seem to want to move the US. (To avoid thread-spread, or whatever it's called, I put this point separately. Let's stay focussed on the bizarre imaginings of English-Canadians.)

[caesar]

The Americans are completely innocent in this bizarre, invented, one-sided relationship.

The "Americans" are innocent; perhaps I would have believed that "the Americans" were"innocent" but that was before they re=elected GWB.

The Canadians are the innocent recipients of USA arrogance and bullying.

[caesar]

Talk about a colonial mentality. Pathetic.

Talk about the author being brainwashed by American media; very sad and very pathetic.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

Hyperbole and cant.

Sounds like an investment firm. If I win the lottery, I was going to invest heavily with 'Hookers and Coke'.

Sorry, Thelonious, but that sounds like an Indian claiming Pakistan is a threat.

We are not trading artillery barrages with the US over the Waterton/Glacier Nat. Park boundary, though.

Let's stay focussed on the bizarre imaginings of English-Canadians.)

Not sure if you wanted this reply here, or under another thread, such as 'The US now a hated nation" or something, but here are a few thoughts.

Most of the anti-american rhetoric I hear is from Canadians who have travelled abroad, or from those that have lived/worked in the US. Also, many 'ethnic people' that I talk to, first or second generation immigrants. Wondeful people, and I try to learn their language and cultures when I can. I can speak a bit of Cantonese, some Punjabi, and a bit of Greek from these friends. I also believe them when they tell me that their countries are different than what is portayed in American media.

I have a very good friend that recently moved back from the USA, and he hated it. (Mind you, he was in New Jersey)He couldn't believe the blatant and overt racism, the widespread ignorance of world issues and geography, and the overwhelming propaganda that the US' ideology, idolatry and foreign policy is 'pure as driven snow', innocent of any transgression or aggression. I have had many other discussions with many individuals, and the vast majority say the same thing. I have met immigrants from Switzerland, Hong Kong and India, among other places, and the 'bizarre imaginings of English-Canadians' is a world-wide perception.

[August1991]

Talk about a colonial mentality. Pathetic.

Talk about the author being brainwashed by American media; very sad and very pathetic.

You can look up colonial mentality on the Internet. I would extend its meaning to anyone who orients their thoughts and values on some foreign entity.

I find the rank anti-Americanism among English Canadians tiresome. Its occasional rejoinder, that Canada would be nothing without the US, is just as tiresome.

[August1991]

Thelonious, we're way off topic here but who cares.

I'm not at all surprised to learn that US media tends to talk about the US. People care about their own lives and things near to them.

In Canada, the CBC is one of the few media outlets that reports on foreign affairs and, of course, nobody listens to it or cares. (Consider this forum alone. Hot debates concern gay marriage not genocide in Africa.)

In fact, I often cringe at CBC reports on foreign affairs because they invariably turn out as "those poor foreigners are suffering some calamity isn't it good we live here".

IOW, I am always astonished at the difference between the Tourism pages of the Saturday newspapers and the World Report pages. Two very different ways of seeing the world. (Now, which one reflects better how Canadians think of the world?)

There is no question that the US is an important military, economic and cultural power in the world. But power in the US is so decentralized that it is almost meaningless to speak of "power". Foreigners with little knowledge of the US seem to believe that the US Pres controls every thing America does in the world. It ain't so.

Even military power is answerable to a Congress of some 500 or so deputies and ultimately to the American population.

[Argus]

Frankly, what is it about (English) Canadians and Americans?

We've got Argus saying that the US is going to cut us off and Thelonious saying the US is a threat.

The Americans are completely innocent in this bizarre, invented, one-sided relationship.

First, I did not say the Americans were going to cut us off. I pointed out that it must anger them to be sneered at by the likes of Martin, who recently, in the same interview, all but said he has no interest in Bush's star wars program unless the President gets down on his knees and coaxes him very hard indeed, and hinted Canada would give refugee status to American military deserters.

Tighter border controls have been imposed several times, and the last one only belatedly exempted Canada after much lobbying. There are already two hour waits at the border in places, discouraging day tourists. Imagine if they finally realized the Liberals have no intention of doing anything about our lax internal and border security and decided to apply tighter standards themselves. Bush is, by all accounts, a vindictive man. I can easily see him doing this just to teach Martin a lesson. And there would be plenty of support in the US congress and senate for encouraging more of the auto industry to locate there.

And frankly, I'd find it hard to blame them. We have almost no security in this country. Our coast guard and navy ships are mostly tied up at dock for lack of money. We disbanded our ports police to save money. The RCMP and CSIS are grossly underfunded, as is Customs. We let people get off planes and disappear into our cities with no idea who they are or where they come from simply because they say they're refugees. And when they don't show up for hearings we don't even look for them. We're also the last country on earth which uses minimum wage, private security guards as airport screeners. Why shouldn't they treat their border with us the same as with the rest of the world?

[August1991]

I'll start at the end Argus.

And frankly, I'd find it hard to blame them. We have almost no security in this country. Our coast guard and navy ships are mostly tied up at dock for lack of money.

Neither do the Americans. How many containers arrive in Boston? How many in Halifax? How many are checked? You do the math.

First, I did not say the Americans were going to cut us off. I pointed out that it must anger them to be sneered at by the likes of Martin...

On talk radio, maybe. Do you remember the line? "California is the future." That's Fox. (IOW, no one listens to radio/TV anymore unless it is outrageously silly and entertaining. Anyone so foolish as to judge US public opinion by radio/TV/newspapers is, well, foolish.)

There are already two hour waits at the border in places, discouraging day tourists.

I crossed the border this past summer several times with and without Europeans. Everyone is worse off, to a comparable degree.

My quibble is that the "fortress" should be the continent. Practical matters will probably make that so, as in the past.

A great advance would be a "North American visa". A Canadian visa gives entry to the US and a US visa allows entry to Canada. In practical terms, we do that now. We should it make it "official".

[Stoker]

My quibble is that the "fortress" should be the continent. Practical matters will probably make that so, as in the past.

A great advance would be a "North American visa". A Canadian visa gives entry to the US and a US visa allows entry to Canada. In practical terms, we do that now. We should it make it "official".

Thats a very good idea August, perhaps Mexico could be included in this "North American ID card"......Perhaps this, added to different labour and immigration laws could allow illegal alien workers in the South Western states, to become legal migrant workers.

[Argus]

And frankly, I'd find it hard to blame them. We have almost no security in this country. Our coast guard and navy ships are mostly tied up at dock for lack of money.

Neither do the Americans. How many containers arrive in Boston? How many in Halifax? How many are checked? You do the math.

What the Americans do have is foreign intelligence guiding them in selecting which containers to search, which ones to pass through radiation detection machines. And even without that I'm willing to bet they search a helluva lot more of them than we do.

Besides, there's something to be said for at least making an effort. Disbanding our Ports Police was not "making an effort". Not providing our Coast Guard with enough fuel to go out and monitor, and perhaps occasionally search incoming ships is not "making an effort".

My quibble is that the "fortress" should be the continent.  Practical matters will probably make that so, as in the past.

You can't have a fortress when the north wall is six inches high and unmonitored.

A great advance would be a "North American visa".  A Canadian visa gives entry to the US and a US visa allows entry to Canada.  In practical terms, we do that now.  We should it make it "official".

Except the Americans would not want to give that visa to "Canadians"who were born and grew up in Iran, Iraq and Lebanon.

[Argus]

Thats a very good idea August, perhaps Mexico could be included in this "North American ID card"......Perhaps this, added to different labour and immigration laws could allow illegal alien workers in the South Western states, to become legal migrant workers.

Not possible. One of the Americans biggest weaknesses right now is there southern border. Too much illegal immigration there has always been a cultural and economic problem. Now it is a security issue, as well. Many in congress and the senate, to say nothing of among governors, want to see the US military used to seal off the Mexican border. What is stopping it is the already considerabe Hispanic vote in the US.

[August1991]

A great advance would be a "North American visa".  A Canadian visa gives entry to the US and a US visa allows entry to Canada.  In practical terms, we do that now.  We should it make it "official".

Except the Americans would not want to give that visa to "Canadians"who were born and grew up in Iran, Iraq and Lebanon.

A Canadian citizen can enter the US visa-free. The US gives Canadian landed immigrants a long term visa without much trouble. Any foreigner with a Canadian visa will not have much trouble getting a US visa.

I am not certain that Canadian visa procedures are any less strict than US procedures. Anyone the US would want to exclude is probably someone we would also.

I think Americans would be more than happy to have a common visa regime for the two countries.

The problem is here in Canada. There are many anti-Americans in Canada and they would see this as the US taking us over or something.

As Hugo argued in the truck/car thread, the effect of this policy is just to make life harder for ordinary people.

BTW, there is a precedent. In Europe, there are no longer border checkpoints between (for example) France and Germany. Visas issued by one country can be used to enter the other.

Not possible. One of the Americans biggest weaknesses right now is there southern border.

I agree, Argus.

Aside from illegal immigration from Mexico, keep in mind that security is the issue here.

Both the US and Canada have a variety of mechanisms to keep certain people and certain things out of their respective countries. Mexico doesn't have the means to do that adequately.

-----

I stand corrected:

A September survey by Ipsos-Reid found that 70% supported jointly manned border posts and 85% agreed Canada should make the changes necessary to create a common security perimeter.

Even more surprising was that 81% believe the U.S. and Canada should adopt "common entry controls" in the way they treat refugees and immigrants.

Toronto Sun columnist

This poll was conducted shortly after Sep 2001 and the term used was "security perimeter" not "common visa".

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

I think Americans would be more than happy to have a common visa regime for the two countries.

The problem is here in Canada. There are many anti-Americans in Canada and they would see this as the US taking us over or something.

Indeed, a common currency is anathema in Canada for the same reason.

As to Anti-Americanism, we simply don't share the same set of values. There is much in common, I admit. Even the boys from South Park used Canada as their enemy in their movie 'Bigger, Longer and Uncut' because the very notion was so silly.