bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 16 minutes ago, Argus said: The success of Republicans is more due to big money than any shift to 'the right' since the Republican party is not actually on the right. It is the big money party, the party of the wealthy elites. If you think that the Democrats are not also beholden to the wealthy, then clearly facts are not important to this discussion. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Independent thinking Americans do not need or desire "vision" from others... Swell. So these uhm 'independent thinkers' don't care if their politicians have any vision, lead them around by their noses, and then get rich in the doing, and they don't care that their favorite political party has an agenda which is 100% contrary to their best interests? That really is 'independent' thinking. Tell me, are these the same sort of people who pay dominatrixes to beat them because the pain feels so good? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: If you think that the Democrats are not also beholden to the wealthy, then clearly facts are not important to this discussion. The Democrats have to play the game with the rules in place. But we know they have been trying to reform the election financing rules and know the Republicans have opposed reform. We know the Democrats consistently support measures intended to help the poor and middle class while the Republicans have consistently opposed any and all such measures. We know that the Republicans have been fanatical in their support of tax cuts for the wealthy for decades while the Democrats have opposed these. It is pretty clear which party is more beholden to the wealthy. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 1 minute ago, Argus said: Swell. So these uhm 'independent thinkers' don't care if their politicians have any vision, lead them around by their noses, and then get rich in the doing, and they don't care that their favorite political party has an agenda which is 100% contrary to their best interests? It is swell....self interest and pocket-book politics has always been in play during elections. The U.S. is not a Scandinavian social welfare state. Celebs get more attention than politicians, unless of course one happens to be a celeb and politician at the same time (e.g. Donald Trump). Quote That really is 'independent' thinking. Tell me, are these the same sort of people who pay dominatrixes to beat them because the pain feels so good? Not my area of expertise...I defer to other's experience in such matters. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Argus said: The Democrats have to play the game with the rules in place. But we know they have been trying to reform the election financing rules and know the Republicans have opposed reform. We know the Democrats consistently support measures intended to help the poor and middle class while the Republicans have consistently opposed any and all such measures. We know that the Republicans have been fanatical in their support of tax cuts for the wealthy for decades while the Democrats have opposed these. Facts say otherwise....the wealthy also benefit and align themselves with Democrats for selfish, partisan interests. There is little difference between the two parties in this regard. Example: VP Joe Biden is/was the biggest champion and protector of corporate interests and tax treatments in Delaware, which is why so many are incorporated there. Ditto trial lawyers, labour unions, insurance companies, big pharma, etc. Edited October 28, 2016 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: It is swell....self interest and pocket-book politics has always been in play during elections. Of course! But I'd think the stupid gulls voting Republican would show a little of that self-interest rather than voting in a party which kicks them in the head every year. Quote The U.S. is not a Scandinavian social welfare state No, because those foolish Scandinavians have voted for politicians who fund their roads, bridges and airports properly, pay for what they build, and don't exempt the rich from paying taxes. There is virtually no poverty in Scandinavian countries, and universal health care. The citizens have far, far more vacation time off and far more benefits of every kind. So who are the fools, them or you? Edited October 28, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 9 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Facts say otherwise....the wealthy also benefit and align themselves with Democrats for selfish, partisan interests. There is little difference between the two parties in this regard. Example: VP Joe Biden is/was the biggest champion and protector of corporate interests and tax treatments in Delaware, which is why so many are incorporated there. Ditto trial lawyers, labour unions, insurance companies, big pharma, etc. I don't deny the Democrats play the game. I said so. Nevertheless, you haven't got an answer as to why the Republicans have consistently opposed election finance reform, have consistently worked at lowering taxes for the rich, have worked at making it harder for working people to be represented by unions, and have consistently eroded benefits for the poor and working class. All of which is opposed by the Democrats. What have the Republicans done for the poor and middle class lately other than make life more difficult for them? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 15 minutes ago, Argus said: Of course! But I'd think the stupid gulls voting Republican would show a little of that self-interest rather than voting in a party which kicks them in the head every year. Obviously many voters feel differently, resenting people on the dole more than Republican candidates. Republicans won't take their gun rights away, force them to pay for abortions, or open borders to potential terrorists. Ronald Reagan was very, very successful with Republicans...and Democrats. Quote No, because those foolish Scandinavians have voted for politicians who fund their roads, bridges and airports properly, pay for what they build, and don't exempt the rich from paying taxes. There is virtually no poverty in Scandinavian countries, and universal health care. The citizens have far, far more vacation time off and far more benefits of every kind. So who are the fools, them or you? Good...maybe next time they will not need help from the United States (Marshall Plan). More Scandinavians have emigrated to the United States than vice-versa. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Argus said: I don't deny the Democrats play the game. I said so. Nevertheless, you haven't got an answer as to why the Republicans have consistently opposed election finance reform, have consistently worked at lowering taxes for the rich, have worked at making it harder for working people to be represented by unions, and have consistently eroded benefits for the poor and working class. All of which is opposed by the Democrats. What have the Republicans done for the poor and middle class lately other than make life more difficult for them? Not all Democrats march to your cross border mis-perceptions. It is not a game....it is political and constitutional reality. The wealthy already provide a great deal of tax revenue, even upon their deaths. Unions are in decline in the U.S. for the very reasons bemoaned above...self interest, right to work, etc. I dare say that the only reason many foreign nationals even care what happens in the United States is their own self interest, particularly in the case of Canada's economy. Edited October 28, 2016 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Obviously many voters feel differently, resenting people on the dole more than Republican candidates. Republicans won't take their gun rights away, force them to pay for abortions, or open borders to potential terrorists. Ronald Reagan was very, very successful with Republicans...and Democrats. No one is threatening to take away their gun rights, and resenting people on the dole doesn't get you anywhere. Teaching them some skills does, and the Republicans refuse to pay for that. Abortions? This is the party which opposes all abortions, then opposes any and all help for the poor, unwed mothers. They love fetuses and hate babies. And even if the Republicans could ban abortions they would never do so. It's too good an issue for them to distract the gulls while they screw them over every year. "Hey, don't pay any attention as we give companies the right to go bankrupt to get rid of your pension, while still staying in operations! Abortion! Abortion! Guns! Guns! Oh, you're poor? So said, too bad. But don't worry, we'll protect you from Socialists!" Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Argus said: No one is threatening to take away their gun rights, and resenting people on the dole doesn't get you anywhere. Yes it does....please look across the U.S. border again and note which party controls Congress, state houses. and governor offices. Bill Clinton and the Democrats helped to pass welfare reform in the 1990's, picking on so many "poor people". Put lots of people in prison too for drug charges. Very popular with American voters. Edited October 28, 2016 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 41 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Yes it does....please look across the U.S. border again and note which party controls Congress, state houses. and governor offices. Bill Clinton and the Democrats helped to pass welfare reform in the 1990's, picking on so many "poor people". Put lots of people in prison too for drug charges. Very popular with American voters. So your answer is whatever works is okay? And you support this party for what reason exactly? Because they screw you but hey, they screw poorer people even more? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, Argus said: So your answer is whatever works is okay? And you support this party for what reason exactly? Because they screw you but hey, they screw poorer people even more? Absolutely ! I don't "support" parties...especially those in foreign countries. I support ideology reinforced by actions for self interest. To paraphrase Bill Withers, if I am being screwed then please screw me some more because it is great. Champions of "poor people" have used them the most for their own partisan reasons. The Clintons and Democrats sure do. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 4 hours ago, Argus said: I'm not sure what you're getting at other than to suggest their view of him is based on some sort of bias. However, I do not share the bias of these people and cannot by any stretch of the imagination be termed 'politically correct'. I despise Trump because of his willful ignorance and crude meanness, not his lack of political correctness. Not only that but you can just tell hes a fairly low quality individual. His businesses have not even outperformed the stock market index, and you can sorta tell that if he didnt inherit millions of dollars he would probably living in a trailer somewhere. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Argus Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: Absolutely ! I don't "support" parties...especially those in foreign countries. I support ideology reinforced by actions for self interest. The Republicans don't HAVE any ideology. Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: To paraphrase Bill Withers, if I am being screwed then please screw me some more because it is great. Champions of "poor people" have used them the most for their own partisan reasons. The Clintons and Democrats sure do. By wasting your money to feed them, you mean? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, dre said: Not only that but you can just tell hes a fairly low quality individual. His businesses have not even outperformed the stock market index, and you can sorta tell that if he didnt inherit millions of dollars he would probably living in a trailer somewhere. That he's a failure in business, and has no ideas behind him other than a big tax cut for his friends is merely a reason to politely decline his services. That and him being a pathological liar. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Argus said: The Republicans don't HAVE any ideology. By wasting your money to feed them, you mean? Even if true, so what ? (Less ideology is better.) Why does it matter to a foreign national ? Edited October 28, 2016 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Bonam Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 26 minutes ago, dre said: His businesses have not even outperformed the stock market index, and you can sorta tell that if he didnt inherit millions of dollars he would probably living in a trailer somewhere. This isn't a defense of Trump (I detest him) but this particular criticism is not well thought out. Only about half of businesses can outperform the stock market index, and the other half will necessarily under-perform the index, since by definition the performance of the index is the average of all the businesses it contains (which one would expect would also be similar to the average for privately held businesses). Many solid businesses have performed a few percent worse than the index. Quote
dre Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 Just now, Bonam said: This isn't a defense of Trump (I detest him) but this particular criticism is not well thought out. Only about half of businesses can outperform the stock market index, and the other half will necessarily under-perform the index, since by definition the performance of the index is the average of all the businesses it contains (which one would expect would also be similar to the average for privately held businesses). Many solid businesses have performed a few percent worse than the index. I understand that, but to try to pass yourself off as some kind of business genius when you are deep down in that second have you mentioned is disingenuous. And I don't know if you can consider those "solid businesses". The owners and investors made less money than if they had just bought into an indexed fund and did nothing at all. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Bonam Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 13 minutes ago, dre said: I understand that, but to try to pass yourself off as some kind of business genius when you are deep down in that second have you mentioned is disingenuous. And I don't know if you can consider those "solid businesses". The owners and investors made less money than if they had just bought into an indexed fund and did nothing at all. A lot of capital does just go into indexed funds. But the way numbers work is there is always gonna be an average, and a top half and a bottom half. Cars still need to be made, metals still need to be mined, oil still needs to be refined, etc, even though these businesses might be underperforming the index average over whatever time period. And sometimes the index average is driven by huge gains in a few outperforming companies, or huge losses in a few poor performers. As long as, accounting for the risk you take, you are exceeding the risk-free rate of return, you're doing alright. Quote
?Impact Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 51 minutes ago, Bonam said: This isn't a defense of Trump (I detest him) but this particular criticism is not well thought out. Only about half of businesses can outperform the stock market index, and the other half will necessarily under-perform the index, since by definition the performance of the index is the average of all the businesses it contains (which one would expect would also be similar to the average for privately held businesses). Many solid businesses have performed a few percent worse than the index. With six bankruptcies, I would say the writing is clearly on the wall. Currently he has 23 accounts in default and 3 in collection, scoring very low in credit worthiness. Quote
Bonam Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, ?Impact said: With six bankruptcies, I would say the writing is clearly on the wall. Currently he has 23 accounts in default and 3 in collection, scoring very low in credit worthiness. Clearly. But those are different indicators than "he didn't outperform the index". Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 Trump did not earn a dime by soliciting contributions to a shell non-profit organization while serving as a cabinet member or U.S. Senator. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
?Impact Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 No he made all his money by cheating the American taxpayer, his employees, non-documented workers, and outsourcing the rest overseas. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, ?Impact said: No he made all his money by cheating the American taxpayer, his employees, non-documented workers, and outsourcing the rest overseas. OK.....many businesses do this. Advantage Trump. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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