Because it's 2016

[kimmy]

I've already explained this. Religions are protected provided that their practices don't break any laws. That's not the case in bountiful.

Trudeau went to to the mosque to highlight diversity. He made mention of the the men and women, both present and not, to make clear that diversity includes people of both sexes.

The "freedom of religion" argument you keep raising is off the mark, because nobody is challenging their right to run their mosque as they wish. What people are questioning is Trudeau's decision to visit it.

Bountiful is a gray area, because the BC government has been trying for a very long time to get legal direction on going after Bountiful cult leaders and the advice they've received is that they'd have a very hard time doing it. Now that the constitutionality of anti-polygamy laws has been affirmed they have a green light to pursue charges, but so far nothing has happened.

So leaving aside Bountiful, what about some of the other religious communities bringing diversity to our country? Why doesn't Trudeau go attend a Santeria blood sacrifice? How about a doomsday cult? How about a fundamentalist faith-healing snake-handling flat-earth speaking-in-tongues Christian denomination?

Polygamy and pedophilia are illegal; the mosque is not engaging in illegal activity.

What if JT visited a horse-and-buggy Mennonite community? Would you find that as distasteful?

I don't find anything particularly distasteful about horses and buggies. My mom is from that stock and left as soon as she reached adulthood... I have a bit of familiarity with them, and while there are things I find somewhat distatesful-- puritanical attitudes and dress codes-- I never encountered anything I found outright objectionable. Although my exposure to that community was pretty limited and all of mom's family are pretty much "lapsed". However, I doubt we will see our Prime Minister visit such a place or that he will praise them for the diversity they're bringing to Canada.

Leaving aside Bountiful, what about the other things I mentioned? A fundie faith-healing church, snake-handlers, a doomsday cult? How about an orthodox synagogue that practices segregation? Do you think we'll see Trudeau to visit those sorts of people to praise them for bringing diversity to Canada? If he does, do you think it will pass without criticism that he'd choose to endorse such people?

If Trudeau were to hold an event at a non-religious men-only club or a white-people-only club, would people let that pass without comment?

-k

[Smallc]

The "freedom of religion" argument you keep raising is off the mark, because nobody is challenging their right to run their mosque as they wish. What people are questioning is Trudeau's decision to visit it.

This is where I don't understand your argument. He didn't condone their prayer segregation practice, but rather went there to highlight diversity and acceptance. I would want Trudeau to be as much a champion of religious freedom as equality anyway, given that they're both constitutional guarantees.

Bountiful is a gray area, because the BC government has been trying for a very long time to get legal direction on going after Bountiful cult leaders and the advice they've received is that they'd have a very hard time doing it. Now that the constitutionality of anti-polygamy laws has been affirmed they have a green light to pursue charges, but so far nothing has happened.

They obviously don't have enough evidence to be sure that they can get any kind of conviction.

So leaving aside Bountiful, what about some of the other religious communities bringing diversity to our country? Why doesn't Trudeau go attend a Santeria blood sacrifice? How about a doomsday cult? How about a fundamentalist faith-healing snake-handling flat-earth speaking-in-tongues Christian denomination?

He was at the mosque because it was September 12th. I though that would be obvious. Straw men won't change why he was there, either.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Smallc

[kimmy]

I can accept his decision to go, but it rankles me that he is unwilling to even acknowledge the issue. The criticism of Trudeau is not just coming from Muslim-haters and rednecks, it's coming from feminists as well. I would expect a self-proclaimed feminist might feel some duty to respond to feminist criticism of his position.

Former Wall Street Journal reporter and author Asra Nomani said: “Right now we have these political leaders — ironically, politically liberal leaders — who are just putting blinders on their eyes about their values.

“That’s the big differential for liberals, they fancy themselves as honouring the women’s body and yet the segregation by its very definition hyper-sexualises women’s bodies.

“That’s the great irony.”

She added she felt Mr Trudeau and other politicians who support gender equality should refuse invitations from gender-segregated places of worship including mosques.

Ms Nomani said: “They would be following the precedent of other Muslim men who are bold leaders in our community who are now refusing to go and stand at the pulpits of the mosques that segregate like that.”

But it appears that this is the closest we're going to get to an acknowledgement of the issue from Trudeau:

Having been criticized for attending a mosque in Ottawa where women and men are segregated, Trudeau was asked by moderator Jennifer Ditchburn how he can reconcile the sometimes conflicting right to freedom of religion and the right to equality (of the sexes).

“There is work to be done on all these sides, everywhere,” Trudeau responded.

“The question is, do you engage and participate and share those values, or stay away and say ‘I’m not talking to you until you hit the norm and the perfect ideal that we aspire to?'”

“I think that’s wrong.”

I can understand the position that we can't just shut people out because they're not perfect. Fair enough.

But notice that once again he didn't even acknowledge the actual issue. He's willing to say "everybody has some work to do", and he's willing to tell us "majority" Canadians what work he expects from us, but isn't willing to state what the Muslim community needs to work on to get closer to that "perfect idea". Because that would sound too much like criticism.

-k

[Smallc]

I can understand the position that we can't just shut people out because they're not perfect. Fair enough.

But notice that once again he didn't even acknowledge the actual issue. He's willing to say "everybody has some work to do", and he's willing to tell us "majority" Canadians what work he expects from us, but isn't willing to state what the Muslim community needs to work on to get closer to that "perfect idea". Because that would sound too much like criticism.

I really think that you're looking for an answer that's already been given.

[Smallc]

I mean really, is it best to shame people that you're trying to engage in meaningful dialogue?

[WestCoastRunner]

Anita Vandenbeld, MP for Ottawa West-Nepean, and the former global manager of the 'International Knowledge Network of Women in Politics' was one of the female MP's attending the Mosque. Some of her comments: http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/vandenbeld-mps-should-visit-mosques-and-other-places-of-worship-too

I did not enter through a side door – none of us did – despite claims made in coverage by the Citizen and some others. In the past, I have visited this mosque for community events, addressed the worshippers at Friday prayers, and attended funerals and celebrations. On many of these occasions, genders were not separated. In fact, I have only seen that to be the case during prayers.

I have also attended religious ceremonies at a Sikh gurdwara and a Jewish synagogue where they have segregated by gender, and I will continue to do so. I will never stop going to places where people gather, and I will never stop listening to the women and men in those places.

Many of the women who attend the Ottawa Mosque are proud feminists, friends of mine and strong voices in our community. As an MP, my job is to be there to listen to and support them. Any representative who would choose not to be present and to not listen to members of their community would be failing in their duties as a elected representative.

I am proud to have been the first non-Muslim woman to address that same mosque in 2011, speaking from the front – which is essentially the pulpit. I spoke about inclusion, diversity and equality, and I have returned to speak many times since. I have received nothing but respect from mosque leaders, many of whom I consider allies in and champions of progressive change. I encourage everyone, when visiting a mosque, to speak with some of the women present. You will learn what passionate advocates these women are for their community and appreciate their range of thoughtful and progressive perspectives.​​

[Smallc]

Yeah, well, she's just a Jew hater, so what does she know?

[kimmy]

I really think that you're looking for an answer that's already been given.

Which was that? Could you restate it, just for the sake of clarity?

I mean really, is it best to shame people that you're trying to engage in meaningful dialogue?

What meaningful dialogue occurred on the issue of gender in Islam? Trudeau's shout-out to "the sisters upstairs" seems to indicate that he didn't disapprove of the situation at all. Even in his comments Friday, which he was pressed into making by a female panel moderator, he didn't actually address that issue at all-- wouldn't state how he felt his Muslim hosts fell short of "that perfect ideal" or what "work" they need to do to improve. What dialogue was actually attempted here?

-k

[kimmy]

The standard by which we measure Augusta Golf And Country Club isn't the respect they show Tiger Woods, it's the respect they show an ordinary black person.

And the standard by which we view a religious institution shouldn't be the respect they show a Premier or MP, it should be the respect they show an ordinary woman.

As London mayor Sadiq Khan said:

“When I won the election (Trump) said he would make an exception for me,” Khan told the audience. “But there is nothing exceptional about me. There are literally tens of thousands of Muslims just like me who want to come to (the U.S.) to study or to work or visit their family.”

Bending regressive rules for somebody because they're a big deal isn't particularly praiseworthy.

-k

[Argus]

I mean really, is it best to shame people that you're trying to engage in meaningful dialogue?

He's not attempting to engage in meaningful dialogue. He is uncritically praising them in hopes that gets him votes.

[Smallc]

Which was that? Could you restate it, just for the sake of clarity?

He's going to engage with all Canadians, as is right given his office. To expect any different is nonsense.

What meaningful dialogue occurred on the issue of gender in Islam? Trudeau's shout-out to "the sisters upstairs" seems to indicate that he didn't disapprove of the situation at all. Even in his comments Friday, which he was pressed into making by a female panel moderator, he didn't actually address that issue at all-- wouldn't state how he felt his Muslim hosts fell short of "that perfect ideal" or what "work" they need to do to improve. What dialogue was actually attempted here?

Again, how would it help to call them out? And again, genders are not segregated at the mosque outside of prayer time. Women were in fact present and taking pictures. Women have given speeches at the mosque. It was a lie that they came in the side door. This seems no worse than segregation in other religions that have been here for centuries, causing none of this uproar.

[Smallc]

He's not attempting to engage in meaningful dialogue. He is uncritically praising them in hopes that gets him votes.

He was there for a religious holiday that happens to follow September 11th. Not the time or place.

[Smallc]

Again, how would it help to call them out? And again, genders are not segregated at the mosque outside of prayer time.

In fact I am completely wrong. From the page I linked earlier in this thread:

The article also highlights that the mosque is gender segregated with is inaccurate. Most mosques have men and women praying in different spaces depending on the size of the gathering-for a large gathering like Eid or Friday prayers for example, but often during other prayers, women may pray on the main floor. Even during prayers movement between spaces for women is pretty fluid at OMA as can be seen in this photo as women came to the main floor during PM Trudeau's speech. Many women took the opportunity to greet him as he left, shake his hand and take selfies. The office based on the main floor is run by a woman and regular events, including funerals, take place on the main floor where women are seated in the main hall, such as during OMA's mental health information session or during the last federal election information sessions, both events mainly led by women, who were also the primary speakers. Women currently sit on the board of the OMA, which was the first mosque in Ottawa to have women as regular board members.

Also worth mentioning:

The headline for the event in the Toronto Sun read "Trudeau visits mosque with terror connections" which seemed to want to focus on OMA's Imam Metwally's organizational affiliation with an academic association with alleged links to the Muslim Brotherhood than that he is a graduate of the much respected Hartford Seminary where he studied as a Fulbright scholar and is much respected for his local interfaith and intrafaith work with Ottawa's Jewish, Christian, and Twelver Shia Muslim communities.

[Argus]

Again, how would it help to call them out? And again, genders are not segregated at the mosque outside of prayer time. Women were in fact present and taking pictures. Women have given speeches at the mosque. It was a lie that they came in the side door. This seems no worse than segregation in other religions that have been here for centuries, causing none of this uproar.

You are deliberately ignoring that the segregation in the mosque is not isolated but is merely a symbol of the misogynistic mindset of so much of Islam. Segregation is not merely at mosques but throughout life. And it's purpose, just like hijabs and burkas, is to prevent women from inspiring lust in men.

[Argus]

The article also highlights that the mosque is gender segregated with is inaccurate. Most mosques have men and women praying in different spaces depending on the size of the gathering-for a large gathering like Eid or Friday prayers for example, but often during other prayers, women may pray on the main floor.

When? When there are no men there? I have seen a lot of pictures and videos of mosques and never once seen a woman on the main floor with the men.

Do you want me to repost the quote that says that no muslim scholar disputes the requirement that women and men not socialize and not pray together?

The headline for the event in the Toronto Sun read "Trudeau visits mosque with terror connections" which seemed to want to focus on OMA's Imam Metwally's organizational affiliation with an academic association with alleged links to the Muslim Brotherhood than that he is a graduate of the much respected Hartford Seminary where he studied as a Fulbright scholar and is much respected for his local interfaith and intrafaith work with Ottawa's Jewish, Christian, and Twelver Shia Muslim communities.

So if you're educated it's okay to want to kill Jews?

[cybercoma]

There is deliberate ignorance going on here and it's not Smallc who has clearly researched what goes on at the mosque. Don't let that stop you from using this as another soapbox for your Islamaphobic rhetoric though. It's hilarious watching all of your claims get torched over and over again while you double down on them.

[Argus]

There is a picture here of women and men sitting together at a Muslim gathering, but not really together. They're on the same floor but sitting separately.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/gender-segregation-the-truth-about-muslim-women-forced-to-sit-aw/

[WestCoastRunner]

There is a picture here of women and men sitting together at a Muslim gathering, but not really together. They're on the same floor but sitting separately.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/gender-segregation-the-truth-about-muslim-women-forced-to-sit-aw/

Oh for goodness sake. Are you for real? Edited September 18, 2016 by WestCoastRunner

[poochy]

Oh for goodness sake. Are you for real?

Do you ever have a point to make?

[WestCoastRunner]

Do you ever have a point to make?

Well yea I did a few posts back if you bothered to read it.

[Smallc]

You are deliberately ignoring that the segregation in the mosque is not isolated but is merely a symbol of the misogynistic mindset of so much of Islam. Segregation is not merely at mosques but throughout life. And it's purpose, just like hijabs and burkas, is to prevent women from inspiring lust in men.

This thread is about Trudeau and the mosque that he chose to visit.

[WestCoastRunner]

This thread is about Trudeau and the mosque that he chose to visit.

But argus is so concerned about women's rights in the Middle East.

[Argus]

This thread is about Trudeau and the mosque that he chose to visit.

And that mosque he chose to visit, which segregated everyone, is symbolic of gender segregation in Islam.

[Smallc]

And that mosque he chose to visit, which segregated everyone, is symbolic of gender segregation in Islam.

Except that didn't happen during his speech, and isn't always the case in that particular mosque.

[Argus]

But argus is so concerned about women's rights in the Middle East.

No, I'm concerned about women's rights in Canada. My question is, why aren't you?

Except that didn't happen during his speech, and isn't always the case in that particular mosque.

Except that DID happen during his speech.