Ontario's Sunshine List is Out again

[Martin Chriton]

Their employer is willing to pay them that much. That's all the argument you need ere.

For public sector employees the taxpayer foots the bill; any many find these salaries excessive and out of step with private sector realities.

Public sector employees are often paid above supply and demand; and retained even where there are better candidates struggling for employment.

Some scenarios I've been told about include it's hard to get employed as a teacher in Ontario even for a strong teacher. In the private sector for sectors with such a large applicant pool and limited positions, you would likely see the wages decrease, reducing cost and opening doors for the unemployed. Of course, it's more popular these days to ignore government waste, increase deficits, and wealth transfer.

[Guest]

So what? I've not seen a reasonable argument that they're overpaid.

They aren't. Sod being a copper in a big town. I wouldn't do it for 100K.

[TimG]

Their employer is willing to pay them that much. That's all the argument you need ere.

Except the employer is not operating on a free market principals so it is not sufficient to argue that a willing payer is enough to justify the payments. The fact is the police department Edited March 29, 2016 by TimG

[Bonam]

Their employer is willing to pay them that much. That's all the argument you need ere.

That's all the argument you'd need if it was a private company employing them. But it's not. When it's public money, then one must consider if the taxpayer is being best served by the spending that the government undertakes. Paying higher salaries than is necessary in order to get and retain a sufficient pool of qualified candidates seems like a questionable way to spend taxpayer dollars.

[Smoke]

Their employer is willing to pay them that much. That's all the argument you need ere.

What a completely ignorant thing to say.

[cybercoma]

So do any of you have any rational argument to make showing they're overpaid? Keep in mind many officers land on this list by working craploads of overtime.

[Argus]

They aren't. Sod being a copper in a big town. I wouldn't do it for 100K.

How about we pay them a million dollars a year then? Is there any restriction, any range on what you feel acceptable to pay people doing work you don't think you'd like to do? How about garbagemen? That's unpleasant. Surely they should get six digit salaries, too.

The only logical basis for deciding on the proper compensation for a job is how hard it is to find an adequate supply of employees willing to do it. You might think it's a lousy job but there are hundreds of applicants for every position. And that was the case fifty years ago, before cops salaries climbed so damned high compared to everyone else. Many young men think it's a fantastic job, and they put years into education, physical training, volunteer work, and garnering a sufficiently impressive resume to have a shot at one of those openings. That tells me we don't have to pay nearly as much as we do now.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Argus

[Argus]

That's all the argument you'd need if it was a private company employing them. But it's not. When it's public money, then one must consider if the taxpayer is being best served by the spending that the government undertakes. Paying higher salaries than is necessary in order to get and retain a sufficient pool of qualified candidates seems like a questionable way to spend taxpayer dollars.

It hurts the public any way you wan to look at it. Either it's money which could be saved, or money which could be spent on other things, or even money which could be spent hiring more police. Believe it or not almost no one in the world feels the need to reward their police and firefighters and teachers nearly as generously as we do.

[Guest]

The only logical basis for deciding on the proper compensation for a job is how hard it is to find an adequate supply of employees willing to do it.

I disagree. The quality off the applicant matters too. If there's a job out there that requires the "right stuff", it's the Police. There are others of course.

Garbage pickup, not so much.

Edited March 29, 2016 by bcsapper

[Argus]

I disagree. The quality off the applicant matters too. If there's a job out there that requires the "right stuff", it's the Police. There are others of course.

Garbage pickup, not so much.

I don't mean enough compensation to get just anyone. Obviously I mean enough qualified people. And there has never been a shortage of qualified applicants for the police, fire department or teaching positions. The compensation for police and fire fighters 50 years ago was comparative much lower, but they still had no difficulty finding plenty of qualified applicants.

[jacee]

From a Toronto Star story last year on the new contract awarded to Toronto Police. As you can see, even without overtime or bonuses police regular pay is now pretty close to $100k. Virtually all police forces in Ontario now have this retention pay scheme, which is unneeded and unnecessary.

The base salary for a Toronto police first class constable will grow to $98,450 by 2018, though an officer receiving maximum retention pay an entitlement police retained would receive $107,312.

Why report only 1st class constables?

Why for the future instead of the present?

Toronto, May 2015

4th Class Constable $66,165

3rd Class Constable $75,626

2nd Class Constable $85,079

1st Class Constable $94,524

I'm glad police are not underpaid.

It means we can hold them to strict professional standards.

I was impressed by the response to my recent video complaint.

They have a ways to go in public confidence though, especially in dealing with mental illness and minority populations including traumatised refugees.

.

[Bob Macadoo]

I don't mean enough compensation to get just anyone. Obviously I mean enough qualified people. And there has never been a shortage of qualified applicants for the police, fire department or teaching positions. The compensation for police and fire fighters 50 years ago was comparative much lower, but they still had no difficulty finding plenty of qualified applicants.

Why don't we just lay them off after 10 years......newbies out of police college are qualified and hungry.

[Argus]

Why report only 1st class constables?

Because that is the standard rank. It usually takes 3-4 years after being hired to reach it.

Why for the future instead of the present?

That is how the Star reported it.

I'm glad police are not underpaid.

No one is calling for them to be underpaid. They should be fairly paid, not overpaid.

It means we can hold them to strict professional standards.

The police in Europe make less than police in Canada. Do you think they aren't held to professional standards?

[Bob Macadoo]

The police in Europe make less than police in Canada. Do you think they aren't held to professional standards?

Brussels would suggest the answer is yes.

[Argus]

Brussels would suggest the answer is yes.

The problems with security in Belgium have to do with a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-language society of people who don't much like each other, don't trust each other, and so have divided the place into a dozen different areas of responsibility.

[Bob Macadoo]

The problems with security in Belgium have to do with a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-language society of people who don't much like each other, don't trust each other, and so have divided the place into a dozen different areas of responsibility.

.....and officers refuse to police those neighbourhoods.....even when direct radicalization has been identified to them. Those are standards I would think.

[cybercoma]

Funny how Argus doesn't question the absolute highest paid on the list.

Edited March 30, 2016 by cybercoma

[SpankyMcFarland]

Running a hospital or a health authority is a nightmare these days with constant media pressure.

[SpankyMcFarland]

The highest paid doctors, e.g. ophthalmologists, radiologists, cardiologists, are generally fee-for-service and are not on the list. 

[Argus]

On 4/23/2016 at 7:19 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

Running a hospital or a health authority is a nightmare these days with constant media pressure.

Isn't running the country even harder? With more media pressure? Should the guy who runs a hospital make two or three times more than the Prime Minister?

[Argus]

On 3/30/2016 at 4:26 PM, Bob Macadoo said:

.....and officers refuse to police those neighbourhoods.....even when direct radicalization has been identified to them. Those are standards I would think.

If officers refuse to police an area you fire them. Problem solved. But radicalization and violent slums didn't happen in Belgium and other parts of Europe because of police and what they get paid, but because of progressive politicians.

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Isn't running the country even harder? With more media pressure? Should the guy who runs a hospital make two or three times more than the Prime Minister?

It is harder but a lot more fun. Apparently, you don't have to pay people that much to run a country. The old vanity kicks in there.

BTW the guy who runs the big city hospital often earns a lot less than some of the specialists in that city.

[Argus]

16 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

It is harder but a lot more fun. Apparently, you don't have to pay people that much to run a country. The old vanity kicks in there.

Fine. The deputy minister of health, then, ie, the actual expert with decades of experience who runs the whole department. They make a lot less than hospital administrators. 

And by the way 'apparently you don't have to pay people that much to run the country'? What makes you think you have to pay people so much to run a hospital? What makes you think you need to pay people so much to run a university?

[SpankyMcFarland]

15 minutes ago, Argus said:

Fine. The deputy minister of health, then, ie, the actual expert with decades of experience who runs the whole department. They make a lot less than hospital administrators. 

And by the way 'apparently you don't have to pay people that much to run the country'? What makes you think you have to pay people so much to run a hospital? What makes you think you need to pay people so much to run a university?

You could ask that about CEOs as well. The pool of people willing and able to run a large hospital is small. You're handling bad news publicly all the time. In my own province, we had to recruit from Ontario in at least one instance and offer a better package than the person was already getting. 

[Argus]

4 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

You could ask that about CEOs as well. The pool of people willing and able to run a large hospital is small. You're handling bad news publicly all the time. In my own province, we had to recruit from Ontario in at least one instance and offer a better package than the person was already getting. 

I think CEOs are overpaid, too, but they're overpaid by the private sector. Hospital administrators and University/college heads are public sector workers. I don't for a moment believe that if you have no difficulty finding people willing to work as deputy minister or assistant deputy minister of health for half to a third the price as we're paying hospital administrators, you can find hospital administrators for the same or less. The same goes for university and college heads. If that nitwit Allan Rock can be head of a university it's not exactly the hardest job to fill.