Is Democracy Dying?

[bjre]

It?s democracy itself shows it is no use at all. UK?s EU referendum clearly shows this again. Many people don?t even know what they vote for:

The British are frantically Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

And they may forget that google itself is a private media and it has its own purpose and try to mislead and fool the people all the time. Even they know, they have no better choice:

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2016/jun/23/andrew-napolitano/did-google-adjust-its-autocomplete-algorithm-hide-/

Did Google adjust its autocomplete algorithm to hide Hillary Clinton's problems?

"The clip that we just ran is the result of a very extensive test, an examination, about whether or not attempts to find things like, ?crime,? ?criminal activity,? ?indictment,? have been filtered out by Google, and we know that it has," Napolitano said.

Too many people were voting according to the emotion that media gave them. Media did not mainly give the information that helps people to fully understand the problem; it has its only purpose. Media continuously fool people make people unable to know what is good for them, so that their vote is meaningless to themselves and to their country. That?s why:

Petition for EU referendum re-run approaches 3 million as David Lammy MP calls for parliament to block Brexit

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/25/more-than-half-a-million-sign-petition-demanding-referendum-reru/

When top 1% people (maybe 0.001%) occupy most of the world?s wealth that control media to make people unable to think in a meaningful way, any democracy system or voting system is just a lie. This is the situation nowadays. That is why nearly all democracy countries are in not good economic situation.

Quote:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/18033-democracy-the-tool-of-modern-dictatorship/

Democracy, the tool of modern dictatorship.

Why is it that every nation that is meddled with by western powers under the guise of installing a democratically elected government ALWAYS ends up a botched job and under the power of some hand picked dictator? You would imagine that this so-called democracy deal was done with conspiratorial intent to defraud people of any glimmer of freedom and grant them absolute slavery.

Look at that now wreck of a country ...Iraq... Afghanistan - etc...all in the name of democracy and FREEDOM..These places are now blasted back into the stone age with some dictatorship running what is left of a once intact nation...I really am getting to dispise any weasil who states "we hope for a democratically elected government"....with us controling it...democracy is now the new name of dictatorship.

[TimG]

It?s democracy itself shows it is no use at all. UK?s EU referendum clearly shows this again.Many people don?t even know what they vote for:

The EU referendum illustrates that democracy is an incredibly valuable intuition to societies that don't treat their citizens as mindless cattle (e.g. China).

In the case of the UK you have a deeply divided society on important questions of values and identity and the referendum was a tool to trigger change without a military coup or other violence. We don't know how this will turn out and no change is without risk but there is now a real chance that the UK will end up with a much better relationship with the EU.

While many people on BOTH sides of the Brexit debate made their decision for dubious reasons there it is worth remembering that the 'elite technocrats' often do the same. i.e. the 'elites' often make decisions based on what is good for them personally rather than what is good for the country. More importantly, such fundamental questions on whether the UK should be part of the EU are questions of values rather than questions of logic and elite technocrats do not have a right to make those decisions for the less educated and less engaged.

I also find it ironic that someone who idolizes China which refuses to abide by the decisions of international bodies because they interfer with China's 'internal affairs' would have a problem with the UK extracting itself from the EU so the UK can better control its 'internal affairs'.

[jacee]

Democracy gave us Hitler and Operation Ajax. Democracy is a little too overrated sometimes. Probably because of what people and countries don't do with it, which is maintain their principles when it really matters. Putting it on a pedestal is easy, knocking it off is even easier.

Yay 'democracy'!

Oh wait no ...

It's the corporatocracy that masquerades as democracy ...

exporting corruption, terror and debt to control the world:

New Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

Perkins claims may seem unthinkable to most Americans. But the evidence, looking at the world economy, is damning . . . the citizens of this country need to be willing to examine the actions of our political and corporate leaders and demand that they stop the destruction that is making the world an increasingly dangerous place to live.

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Edited June 27, 2016 by jacee

[jacee]

It does feel like politicians are puppets and unfortunately the puppet-masters are never up for election.

!!

You speak the truth.

!

[kactus]

The vote on referendum in UK was based on an emotional decision not rational...Whilst you can argue that it keeps democracy alive it is all relative when casting vote is based on dishonesty, lies and propaganda to evoke those emotions....

[TimG]

The vote on referendum in UK was based on an emotional decision not rational...Whilst you can argue that it keeps democracy alive it is all relative when casting vote is based on dishonesty, lies and propaganda to evoke those emotions....

How was the Brexit campaign different from any election campaign. As a general rule the platform of any left wing party (particularly the Green party) is based entirely on "dishonesty, lies and propaganda to evoke those emotions".

[kactus]

How was the Brexit campaign different from any election campaign. As a general rule the platform of any left wing party (particularly the Green party) is based entirely on "dishonesty, lies and propaganda to evoke those emotions".

The difference is 'green party' diesn't stand a chance in party general elections. Labour and Conservative does....

[TimG]

The difference is 'green party' diesn't stand a chance in party general elections. Labour and Conservative does....

I don't know much about the the British parties but in the last campaign the Liberal party platform was certainly filled with "dishonesty, lies and propaganda to evoke those emotions". Why was that any different? Edited June 27, 2016 by TimG

[kactus]

I don't know much about the the British parties but in the last campaign the Liberal party platform was certainly filled with "dishonesty, lies and propaganda to evoke those emotions". Why was that any different?

Which proves the point that the idea of democracy is all relative...

People can vote without knowing the ramifications post their voting....

You see that with many pro Brexit voters that regret their decision now!

Many felt they were lied to.

Edited June 28, 2016 by kactus

[TimG]

You see that with many pro Brexit voters that regret their decision now!

And many more are celebrating. The fact is these kinds of decisions can only be made with a referendum and in any campaign the truth is quickly hidden under a pile of lies and exaggerations on both sides. In the end, one hopes that the crowd is smart enough to figure out the lies even if individuals aren't. There are not really any alternatives.

Another referendum after signing a agreement with the EU would be appropriate given the narrow majority, however, that may not be allowed by the EU. Immediately following this referendum with another where hysterical "remain" advocates try to scare people into changing their votes is not appropriate.

Edited June 28, 2016 by TimG

[?Impact]

hysterical "remain" advocates try to scare people

Yes, the "leave" advocates would never resort to scare. They would never write in big bold letters on their campaign bus that the UK is losing 350 million pounds a week and that money would be used for healthcare. Scare tactics are only on one side of any debate, we know that for a fact.

[kactus]

And many more are celebrating. The fact is these kinds of decisions can only be made with a referendum and in any campaign the truth is quickly hidden under a pile of lies and exaggerations on both sides. In the end, one hopes that the crowd is smart enough to figure out the lies even if individuals aren't. There are not really any alternatives.

Another referendum after signing a agreement with the EU would be appropriate given the narrow majority, however, that may not be allowed by the EU. Immediately following this referendum with another where hysterical "remain" advocates try to scare people into changing their votes is not appropriate.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment that the outcome of the referendum is irrevocable the way this campaign was executed was based on lies and deceit. That is to justify the means.

[kactus]

Yes, the "leave" advocates would never resort to scare. They would never write in big bold letters on their campaign bus that the UK is losing 350 million pounds a week and that money would be used for healthcare. Scare tactics are only on one side of any debate, we know that for a fact.

Exactly so!

[dre]

Whilst I agree with the sentiment that the outcome of the referendum is irrevocable the way this campaign was executed was based on lies and deceit. That is to justify the means.

Its not irrevocable in fact the referendum results are not binding on the government in any way. At one point Cameron threatened that a LEAVE vote would trigger the automatic invoking of Article 50, but he didn't follow through on it. And no government has to if they don't want to.

There's political pressure on the government to not piss off 53% of the electorate but that's it. If they want to they can have more referendums.. The EU cant do a thing about it. Or they could make a general election another referendum on EU membership based on what parties campaign on.

[TimG]

There's political pressure on the government to not piss off 53% of the electorate but that's it. If they want to they can have more referendums.. The EU cant do a thing about it. Or they could make a general election another referendum on EU membership based on what parties campaign on.

A good summary of the options. 52% is too small of a majority for a major change in the status quo but it is enough to say that the leadership can't keep pretending the status quo is fine. That is why I think another referendum after people get a better idea how the post EU relationship would look like would be appropriate. Edited June 29, 2016 by TimG

[Argus]

Its not irrevocable in fact the referendum results are not binding on the government in any way. At one point Cameron threatened that a LEAVE vote would trigger the automatic invoking of Article 50, but he didn't follow through on it. And no government has to if they don't want to.

It would be utterly dishonest of them to not follow through, and would arouse the absolute fury of most of those who voted to leave. It would do the opposite of what Camerone had originally hoped. Instead of cutting the legs out from under the Eurosceptic wing of his party he'd fan the flames and make them angrier.

The only way they could bail on this would be if the EU substantially renegotiated this agreement. Remember, this was supposed to be a TRADE agreement, but it's ballooned into an effort to merge the member countries into a sort of quasi nation state. They should go back to being a trade arrangement.

[?Impact]

Remember, this was supposed to be a TRADE agreement, but it's ballooned into an effort to merge the member countries into a sort of quasi nation state.

This is only if you look at the EEC, and ignore the many other treaties that many of the member states subscribed to before the evolution into the European union.

[Big Guy]

It would be utterly dishonest of them to not follow through, and would arouse the absolute fury of most of those who voted to leave. It would do the opposite of what Camerone had originally hoped. Instead of cutting the legs out from under the Eurosceptic wing of his party he'd fan the flames and make them angrier.

The only way they could bail on this would be if the EU substantially renegotiated this agreement. Remember, this was supposed to be a TRADE agreement, but it's ballooned into an effort to merge the member countries into a sort of quasi nation state. They should go back to being a trade arrangement.

I keep hearing that if the government chose to stay with the status quo, inside the EU, and against the results of the last opinion poll (referendum) that there would be riots and chaos.

Hello! When the vote came in and 49% of the voters did not get the result they wanted there were no riots and chaos. There were not even any protests. Why should the other side act any differently if this opinion poll is ignored by another government?

[jacee]

I keep hearing that if the government chose to stay with the status quo, inside the EU, and against the results of the last opinion poll (referendum) that there would be riots and chaos.

Hello! When the vote came in and 49% of the voters did not get the result they wanted there were no riots and chaos. There were not even any protests. Why should the other side act any differently if this opinion poll is ignored by another government?

I think they'd have to get some kind of mandate for that, an election perhaps?

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[jacee]

Remember, this was supposed to be a TRADE agreement, but it's ballooned into an effort to merge the member countries into a sort of quasi nation state. They should go back to being a trade arrangement.

People have to be able to follow jobs, a free flowing labour market.

I think that's the neo-liberal idea.

(Hmm ... is this Democracy thread drifting to Brexit? )

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Edited June 29, 2016 by jacee

[?Impact]

I wonder how many folks from the UK are currently working in Germany, France, and other countries. Will they be receiving pink slips?

[jacee]

I wonder how many folks from the UK are currently working in Germany, France, and other countries. Will they be receiving pink slips?

Gee. I don't know.

Why don't you ask Google.

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[Big Guy]

I think they'd have to get some kind of mandate for that, an election perhaps?

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I agree. Legislation passed by a parliament or an election based on the issue has validity for the UK to leave the EU. An opinion poll does not. Cameron could have promised what he wanted but parliament would make that decision. If parliament, the representatives of the people (not the PM) , decides to ,leave then the process might begin - and not before that time.

[Argus]

This is only if you look at the EEC, and ignore the many other treaties that many of the member states subscribed to before the evolution into the European union.

I think the UK would be fine with mostly a trade agreement. But I don't think they want to go for having the EU dictate all kinds of laws and regulations to them, and tell them that they can't control their own borders.

[Argus]

I keep hearing that if the government chose to stay with the status quo, inside the EU, and against the results of the last opinion poll (referendum) that there would be riots and chaos.

Hello! When the vote came in and 49% of the voters did not get the result they wanted there were no riots and chaos. There were not even any protests. Why should the other side act any differently if this opinion poll is ignored by another government?

All the parties committed to following the voice of the people in the referendum. No politician with an ounce of integrity could now suddenly say "Well, I changed my mind because I don't like the result".

If this vote is seen in its proper context, as the anger of a huge chunk of the electorate over feeling that they are being ignored, that their economic misfortunes are not cared about, that their desires are not important to the elites, one can only imagine the rage which would result if, after finally winning a vote on something the elites then say "Well, I'm going to ignore it." That is the kind of thing which results in a huge surge in support for more extreme political parties. Witness France. Witness Austria. Witness the Netherlands.