ToadBrother Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 Precisely, and as someone who is allergic to dairy, I'm STILL for this A country that protects certain industries is doing the equivalent of shooting one's own foot. This is a global economy. If memory serves, marketing boards were created during the depression to guarantee farmers a minimum price. I think that made sense during a global meltdown that coincided with crisis events like the Dust Bowl down in the States. But it should never have been a permanent policy. What made sense eighty years ago really doesn't make sense today, and if it has created farms that can only exist through an effective subsidy system, then it hasn't really done anyone any favors. Considering the NDP's faltering support in Quebec, it looks like not even the Quebec dairy industry has enough clout in the province to help Mulcair out. The NDP are just really on the wrong side of this issue. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 For sure, take a look at the video. I don't like videos as cites as they take forever, and with the CBC videos in particular you have to watch a 30 second ad, and their technology is bad... the videos don't load properly. The cite I'm looking for is for compensation for dairy losses and that wasn't mentioned in the video. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
ToadBrother Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 I don't like videos as cites as they take forever, and with the CBC videos in particular you have to watch a 30 second ad, and their technology is bad... the videos don't load properly. The cite I'm looking for is for compensation for dairy losses and that wasn't mentioned in the video. I'd have to hunt around, but I know compensation was raised several months ago when it became clear the other TPP negotiators were targeting our supply management system. Quote
angrypenguin Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 (edited) I don't like videos as cites as they take forever, and with the CBC videos in particular you have to watch a 30 second ad, and their technology is bad... the videos don't load properly. The cite I'm looking for is for compensation for dairy losses and that wasn't mentioned in the video. I suggest you use Adblock Plus. No CBC ad for me As for what you're looking for. http://canadians.org/media/newfoundland-game-changer-europe-canada-free-trade-agreement-pulls-out-trade-negotiations Look at the $400 million part... Edited October 4, 2015 by angrypenguin Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
Michael Hardner Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 As for what you're looking for. I accept Harper's word on this ... and the condition that this is under provincial negotiation. I'm not disputing that. This thread is about the current deal being negotiated. Does anyone know if there are provisions to help the diary industry transition post TPP ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
angrypenguin Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 I accept Harper's word on this ... and the condition that this is under provincial negotiation. I'm not disputing that. This thread is about the current deal being negotiated. Does anyone know if there are provisions to help the diary industry transition post TPP ? Oh. I thought you were referencing the latter portion of the part when you quoted me. Yes, there will be. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/pacific-trade-deal-is-essential-harper-says/article25108622/ Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
Wilber Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 There are downsides in everything, but the upsides far exceed the downsides. How so? What are the upsides to Canada? Be specific. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
angrypenguin Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 How so? What are the upsides to Canada? Be specific. This has already been described in the thread. Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
Michael Hardner Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 How so? What are the upsides to Canada? Be specific. Generally, the upsides are access to large global markets, and lower prices at home. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
angrypenguin Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 (edited) WHOA. Hot off the press!! 8 minutes ago. "TPP deal expected to be announced today" http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/us-australia-reportedly-reach-deal-on-pharma-protection-in-tpp/article26643347/ Edited October 4, 2015 by angrypenguin Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
Wilber Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 If memory serves, marketing boards were created during the depression to guarantee farmers a minimum price. I think that made sense during a global meltdown that coincided with crisis events like the Dust Bowl down in the States. But it should never have been a permanent policy. What made sense eighty years ago really doesn't make sense today, and if it has created farms that can only exist through an effective subsidy system, then it hasn't really done anyone any favors. Considering the NDP's faltering support in Quebec, it looks like not even the Quebec dairy industry has enough clout in the province to help Mulcair out. The NDP are just really on the wrong side of this issue. At the end of the day, it means cheaper dairy products, which will benefit far far more Canadians than it hurts. Affected farmers will get some sort of financial payout, as you and Michael Hardner state, and really they will adapt to the new pricing. It could mean some smaller farms are lost, but I'm looking at the price of beef right now, and thinking "Screw milk, raise meat stock." I have forty acres of land and a hot-to-trot son in law, and am seriously thinking of letting raise a few head of cattle in return for a cut of the profits. My brother in law is making a killing off his herd right now, and often sells the meat on the hoof. Will it mean cheaper dairy products? Can you guarantee that? Most Canadian farms are small farms. The average New Zealand farm is four times the size the average Canadian farm. Bigger farms, supporting fewer people, supplying mega companies, quality control determined elsewhere, charging world price, plus whatever it takes to get it here. By all means put a few head out to fatten up if you have a few acres but there is a lot more to dairy farming than that and it won't make you a farmer. It wasn't very long ago that beef farmers were going broke. The idea behind supply management is to even out boom those bust cycles. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
ToadBrother Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 Will it mean cheaper dairy products? Can you guarantee that? Most Canadian farms are small farms. The average New Zealand farm is four times the size the average Canadian farm. Bigger farms, supporting fewer people, supplying mega companies, quality control determined elsewhere, charging world price, plus whatever it takes to get it here. By all means put a few head out to fatten up if you have a few acres but there is a lot more to dairy farming than that and it won't make you a farmer. It wasn't very long ago that beef farmers were going broke. The idea behind supply management is to even out boom those bust cycles. The fact is that supply management raises the prices for consumers. Reducing the cost to consumers is a lot more important than keeping some dairy farms in business, and as it is likely compensation is coming, I think the government can at least mitigate the harm Quote
Wilber Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 Generally, the upsides are access to large global markets, and lower prices at home. For what? Be specific. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
ToadBrother Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 For what? Be specific. Our farmers will have a much larger market to sell to. Quote
Wilber Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 The fact is that supply management raises the prices for consumers. Reducing the cost to consumers is a lot more important than keeping some dairy farms in business, and as it is likely compensation is coming, I think the government can at least mitigate the harm You assume you will get cheaper dairy products but do you think they will be produced to the same standards (no growth hormones, steroids etc)? Do think the Americans etc. will produce a Canada spec product without Canadians having to pay extra for it? It may raise prices for consumers but it eliminates the need for the subsidies so many of our competitors enjoy. How do you mitigate the harm of taking away the businesses of thousands which employ succeeding generations of families? Or will you be willing to subsidize them through your taxes as the US does? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Wilber Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 Our farmers will have a much larger market to sell to. Which farmers? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
ToadBrother Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 Which farmers? Any who can supply to TPP markets. Or are you saying our farmers are incapable of selling in the global market place? Quote
Wilber Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 Any who can supply to TPP markets. Or are you saying our farmers are incapable of selling in the global market place? Are you a farmer? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
angrypenguin Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 Are you a farmer? What does one's occupation have anything to do with this discussion? Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
ToadBrother Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 Are you a farmer? Are you going to answer my question? Are Canadian dairy farmers capable of selling in TPP markets? Quote
Wilber Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 What does one's occupation have anything to do with this discussion? It helps if you actually know what you are talking about. I'm not a farmer but I overlook the Fraser Valley which is covered with them. I see the dozens of families they support directly and the dozens of local businesses that depend on them for their livelihoods. The millions they spend on machinery, feed and other farm supplies every year. Not to mention their personal spending. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Wilber Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 Are you going to answer my question? Are Canadian dairy farmers capable of selling in TPP markets? You claim to be the expert on the TPP, you tell me. You want the change, it is up to you to convince me, not the other way around. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Michael Hardner Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 For what? Be specific. From the Canadian Chamber of Commerce: The Canadian exports of meat, grain, oil seed, seafood and wood will grow once producers no longer face the quotas and import tariffs that shield the world’s third largest economy. Beef exports to Japan are projected to double or even triple. There will be similar relief from trade barriers in Vietnam and Malaysia, fast-growing markets representing nearly 120 million people http://www.chamber.ca/media/op-eds/150901-tpp-beyond-the-economics/ Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Big Guy Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 How can anybody speculate on the results if we do not know the terms? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Wilber Posted October 4, 2015 Report Posted October 4, 2015 (edited) From the Canadian Chamber of Commerce: The Canadian exports of meat, grain, oil seed, seafood and wood will grow once producers no longer face the quotas and import tariffs that shield the world’s third largest economy. Beef exports to Japan are projected to double or even triple. There will be similar relief from trade barriers in Vietnam and Malaysia, fast-growing markets representing nearly 120 million people http://www.chamber.ca/media/op-eds/150901-tpp-beyond-the-economics/ If so, you will be paying a lot more for bread, beef, seafood and wood in order to get a cheaper quart of milk. And this sounds like a win for the Canadian consumer to you? Edited October 4, 2015 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
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