NDP candidate defends death camp-related penis joke: ‘I didn’t know wh

[Bonam]

So you think people would've cared less had Israelis been non-Jewish European? Or Chinese? Or polka-dot?

I think it's manifestly obvious that people give a pass to far worse human rights abuses and far higher death tolls elsewhere in the world while being outraged by everything Israel does. So yes.

[drummindiver]

Who needs to make excuses or explanations for your own actions when you have all these people(see above) who will blow it off on your behalf?

...unless you are Harper, then any made up fact is enough to hang you.

[BC_chick]

I think it's manifestly obvious that people give a pass to far worse human rights abuses and far higher death tolls elsewhere in the world while being outraged by everything Israel does. So yes.

Firstly, the discussion was about Libby Davis and Zionism and whether or not the creation of Israel in 1948 was just. In that context, I asked whether it would have made a difference if Israelis had been something other than Jewish.

As for the current state of affairs - which other democratic, civilized nation in the world is a virtual apartheid state occupying a stateless piece of land which it believes it has some divine right to? Which other democratic civilized nation bombs stateless territories to bits and nobody says anything? What other democratic civilized nation is occupying another people without taking care of the population of the occupied territories?

It's a unique situation and *that's* why it gets a lot of attention. The Jewishness of one side of the conflict has nothing to do with it.

Edited September 25, 2015 by BC_chick

[drummindiver]

I think it's manifestly obvious that people give a pass to far worse human rights abuses and far higher death tolls elsewhere in the world while being outraged by everything Israel does. So yes.

24,500 ppl have died during the Israel/Palestinian debate since it began. That's 67 years. Yes, horrific.

300,000 Syrians have died due to Assad killing his own ppl since the Arab Spring began, 2011.

Morgan Wheeldon-"One could argue that Israel’s intention was always to ethnically cleanse the region – there are direct quotations proving this to be the case. Guess we just swept that under the rug. A minority of Palestinians are bombing buses in response to what appears to be a calculated effort to commit a war crime.”

Deputy Leader Megan Leslie

David Mclaren

Hans Marotte-“When a Palestinian comes to ask me to sign his declaration of support for the Intifada, and tells me how happy he is to have my name on his list, I see how important it is that we not close in on ourselves.”

Tomas Mulcair muzzled Libby Davis. Good for Tom.

Edited September 25, 2015 by drummindiver

[Canada_First]

Would it be ok for Tory Mp or electee to make a kkk black joke? Of course not. Nor should it be to make a Jew holocaust joke. Frankly it's disgusting.

Then she feigns ignorance? Give me a break. They teach this is elementary school.

[Argus]

What a fantastic way to stifle any criticism!

So you think people would've cared less had Israelis been non-Jewish European? Or Chinese? Or polka-dot?

I think that if they weren't Jews there would be no media coverage, and all those outraged westerners would pay absolutely no attention to what was happening there, just like they pay absolutely no attention to what's happening in the Congo, in Nigeria, in Ukraine, in Yemen, in Cameroon, in Afghanistan, in Darfur, in Sudan, Central African Republic, or anywhere else. ALL of which are far, far and away more violent, bloody and murderous than anything which has happened in Israel/Palestine in decades.

I mean, the Israeli Palestinian conflict escalated hugely in 2014, during that back and forth missile and bombing mess, all the way to the point where Palestinian deaths were the 13th worse among world conflicts for that year.

THIRTEENTH worse in the world. How many of you were out marching and organizing and fighting against the other twelve world conflicts which took more lives that year?

[Argus]

As for the current state of affairs - which other democratic, civilized nation in the world is a virtual apartheid state occupying a stateless piece of land which it believes it has some divine right to?

You think we can't see that you're basically trying to find unique language to define the conflict there differently than elsewhere simply to justify your purported outrage?

I could use similar language to define numerous world conflicts as 'unique' simply by ignoring all the similarities with the other conflicts, and focusing on things I choose to.

Oh, it's democratic, so obviously THAT's the reason. Riiiiight. Of course. I mean, if Israel was a brutal dictatorship like, say, EVERY OTHER COUNTRY AROUND THEM, then of course, you'd shrug off what's going on, right? You have any idea how shallow that sounds?

Hey, are Israelis kidnapping hundreds of little girls and dragging them off to be sex slaves, as is happening in Nigeria and Iraq? Oh, but they're not democratic organizations, so that's not an issue you need to concern yourself with. I understand. And uh, isn't Russia brutally repressing Chechnya, after slaughtering hundreds of thousands of their people? Well, again, they're democratic, but not really. I see. What about the things India is doing in Kashmir? They're democratic. Oh, but that's not religious, oh, I understand. But what about what Turkey's Islamist government is doing to its minority Kurds? Oh, yes, they're democratic and religious, but that's their own territory, so that's okay then.

Clearly your position is totally reasonable...

Edited September 25, 2015 by Argus

[BC_chick]

Your post did not refute anything I said. You can't find one example of a civilized nation that behaves like Israel.

[Argus]

Your post did not refute anything I said. You can't find one example of a civilized nation that behaves like Israel.

You can't find one example of a civilized nation which is under constant threat and armed attacks like Israel.

By the way, are you saying none of those other nations are civilized?

[BC_chick]

You can't find one example of a civilized nation which is under constant threat and armed attacks like Israel.

By the way, are you saying none of those other nations are civilized?

Russia and Nigeria, no not exactly a beacon of civilized nations.

As for your question about a civilized nation living with terrorist threats - let's pretend England carpet bombed Ireland during IRA attacks or Trudeau senior carpet-bombed Quebec during the FLQ attacks. Do you think people who just say meh and go on about their day? Um no, so it's definitely not about holding Israel to a different standard as other peer nations.

And if people did freak out, do you think it's fair to say it's because they have a hate on for the Brits or Canadians or do you think they just expect more of a civilized nation?

Edited September 25, 2015 by BC_chick

[Smallc]

This has nothing to do with the conversation - Argus has to be THE most effective poster on this website. If he doesn't make you think and laugh at the same time, your position is probably too unreasonable for an actual discussion.

[On Guard for Thee]

You can't find one example of a civilized nation which is under constant threat and armed attacks like Israel.

By the way, are you saying none of those other nations are civilized?

Of course you can. It's known as Palestine. And of course they have US supplied F 16's that can really be effective.

[Smallc]

Russia and Nigeria, no not exactly a beacon of civilization.

So you must have further criticism coming then? Maybe start a topic or two? Seriously, Israel is a tiny country that I care not one bit about. That there are Jews there seems to be the main reason anyone does.

As for your question about a civilized nation living with terrorist threats - let's pretend England carpet bombed Ireland during IRA attacks or Trudeau senior carpet-bombed Quebec during the FLQ attacks. Do you think people who just say meh and go on about their day? Um no, so it's definitely not about holding Israel to a different standard as other peer nations.

Those aren't, as you pointed out, actually, the same types of situations. The territory is (for the most part) not occupied by Israel. There are people shooting at them from that territory, from what I understand.

And if people did freak out, do you think it's fair to say it's because they have a hate on for the Brits or Canadians or do you think they just expect more of a civilized nation?

We should probably expect more of the people doing worse things first, if we're trying to make the biggest difference.

[Smallc]

Of course you can. It's known as Palestine.

He said civilized.

[On Guard for Thee]

This has nothing to do with the conversation - Argus has to be THE most effective poster on this website. If he doesn't make you think and laugh at the same time, your position is probably too unreasonable for an actual discussion.

Laugh, maybe, at times. I myself find bigotry off putting.

[BC_chick]

This has nothing to do with the conversation - Argus has to be THE most effective poster on this website. If he doesn't make you think and laugh at the same time, your position is probably too unreasonable for an actual discussion.

So why don't we just shut this place down and call it Argusland?

Apparently he has the monopoly on truth according to smallc.

[On Guard for Thee]

He said civilized.

And he, like you, I suspect have a fairly narrow view of what that word means.

[Bonam]

Your post did not refute anything I said. You can't find one example of a civilized nation that behaves like Israel.

Ok so your argument is that Israel is held to a higher standard than other nations because it is "civilized". What is the advantage of being "civilized"? We still trade openly with many nations on what must be your "uncivilized" list. Could all the critics of Israel simply move it to their "uncivilized" column and then treat it with the same level of interest (or lack thereof) that they treat other uncivilized nations with? Does Israel just need to do something particularly nasty so it can get the much sought after uncivilized label so that it can be ignored by everyone thereafter?

Edited September 25, 2015 by Bonam

[BC_chick]

Ok so your argument is that Israel is held to a higher standard than other nations because it is "civilized". What is the advantage of being "civilized"? We still trade openly with many nations on what must be your "uncivilized" list. Could all the critics of Israel simply move it to their "uncivilized" column and then treat it with the same level of interest (or lack thereof) that they treat other uncivilized nations with?

Not a higher standard. I gave an example of nations that have dealt with terrorism that would've had the same negative reaction had they behaved as Israel does.

In any case I'm moving on from this thread drift.

[Argus]

Russia and Nigeria, no not exactly a beacon of civilized nations.

Nor India? Nor Mexico, where 150,000 people have died in the drug conflicts in the last few years as compared to about 2600 Palestinians last year?

As for your question about a civilized nation living with terrorist threats - let's pretend England carpet bombed Ireland during IRA attacks

Sure, but then we'd have to pretend Israel carpet bombed Gaza last year, which they clearly didn't do or there would have been tens of thousands of casualties.

Besides which, the UK was firmly and completely in control of Ulster, and the IRA had very little in the way of heavy weapons. It was also massively smaller than the Palestinian resistance groups.. If the Brits wanted to hunt down a suspected terrorist all they had to do was go get him, which they did, often enough on mere suspicion, and often enough shooting him without further confirmation. The British did an awful lot of extra judicial killing involving the IRA. The Israelis do not have that luxury in Gaza or the West Bank. If they send troops in there after someone they need to do so with heavy armored backup, and can expect casualties. The two situations are simply not comparable.

[Bonam]

Not a higher standard. I gave an example of nations that have dealt with terrorism that would've had the same negative reaction had they behaved as Israel does.

Israel isn't just facing an occasional terrorist act. Rather, it has been facing nearly continual acts of war for almost 70 years. And yes, nations like Canada don't have to face these kinds of issues... because they eradicated 99% of the population that used to live here, using biological weapons, back when doing stuff like that was A-ok.

[Argus]

Of course you can. It's known as Palestine. And of course they have US supplied F 16's that can really be effective.

Palestine is a nation? A civilized nations? Want me to post you information about all the internal torture and murder the Palestinians engage in? Hell, I bet more Palestinians were killed by Palestinians in the last year than by Israelis.

Besides, which, the Palestinians have it within their power to end all attacks from Israel. All they have to do is stop attacking Israel. You really think that if that happened the Israelis would keep bombing and attacking Palestinians? Do you not remember how things were before the Intifada? That was when tens of thousands of Palestinians took buses into Israel every day to their jobs.

[On Guard for Thee]

Palestine is a nation? A civilized nations? Want me to post you information about all the internal torture and murder the Palestinians engage in? Hell, I bet more Palestinians were killed by Palestinians in the last year than by Israelis.

Besides, which, the Palestinians have it within their power to end all attacks from Israel. All they have to do is stop attacking Israel. You really think that if that happened the Israelis would keep bombing and attacking Palestinians? Do you not remember how things were before the Intifada? That was when tens of thousands of Palestinians took buses into Israel every day to their jobs.

Perhaps if Israel stopped building settlements on Palestinian land, and then stopped bombing them when they retaliate, the place might actually see a little peace. Although I get that Palestinian's are brown.

[Smallc]

So why don't we just shut this place down and call it Argusland?

Apparently he has the monopoly on truth according to smallc.

I didn't say the he was always right, or that I always agreed with him.

[Smallc]

And he, like you, I suspect have a fairly narrow view of what that word means.

That would be a result the world having a narrow and precise meaning:

a stage of social, cultural, and moral development considered to be more advanced.

That is not Palestine.