Nationalism vs Bigotry, Prejudice and Racism

[Guest]

Assuming that we both agree that "disgust" is ;"a feeling of revulsion or profound disapproval aroused by something unpleasant or offensive" then I think I do not have the capacity any more to be "disgusted" at anything. Those that hurt and kill because they genuinely believe they are doing the work of their God are mistaken for a variety of reasons - disgusted by them ? No. Sorry for them and their victims - yes. If they end up joining their God sooner because of their attempt to hurt others then that would seem just to me.

I try not to look at people in a format as part of a "group" and dislike that group. I believe that everyone is born equal and slowly formed by their environment. Each person is also distinct in their personality and should be evaluated on personal actions and decisions rather than the "group" to which we think they belong. At this point in my life, there are five individuals who I do not like. Each is from a different background and my attitude towards them is based on my personal interaction with them.

There are many people with whom I disagree and respect. We have a group who meet every Wednesday in the Legion and discuss a vast range of world issues buoyed by intermittent refreshments. The members range from socialist leanings to far right wing views (the group as a whole tends towards the philosophical right as do most in Legions) and need no encouragement to share and support our different positions.

Thank you for your interest and I apologize for running on - a weakness developed through years of being listened to by a captive audience.

Sooner or later in a discussion a point is found where a major divergence occurs. I do still have the capacity to be disgusted at the actions of others. Especially with religion, it seems. If someone kills someone for religious reasons I feel like screaming at them, "there is no God, you oaf. You did that for nothing". If they kill someone robbing a bank, I'm not going to scream "there is no money". Stll disgusted, just at a different level. I suppose the disgust is compounded by the pointlessness of it all. I too feel sorry for the victims, but I want the perpetrators to suffer. So I suppose it's a shame there is no Hell.

I agree with you, of course, that disliking the group for the actions of the individual is the wrong thing to do. But I also do not believe in separating people from the group just because their actions are not mirrored by the majority of the group, if indeed it was group membership that was the cause of their actions. The group can deal with it or not, as is their wont, but they can't pretend it doesn't happen.

[Big Guy]

Sooner or later in a discussion a point is found where a major divergence occurs.

...

Thank you for sharing. Perhaps my inability to be disgusted at anything has been caused by personally experiencing much of mans inhumanity to man around the world since the second world war. I still believe fervently in the inherent good of all people. I feel the default position of humans is to help not hinder others. It is external experiences which change some of us.

[TimG]

Then they are misinterpreting the intent of the teachings. They may be doing so because of an honest ignorance of the intent or because it fits their particular agenda. Those actions are obviously wrong and should not be encouraged. There is no excuse to hurt people.

It is generally true that most religions do not advocate violence in the teachings and the "prophets" are often penniless wanderers by the time they begin their missionary work. That said, the main prophet of Islam led his people on a war to conquer and forcibly convert neighboring states. It is hard to argue that this example is not at the core of Islamic belief (i.e. can one really argue that the main prophet engaged in actions which are contrary to the religion in order to spread the faith?) Edited September 18, 2015 by TimG

[Big Guy]

It is generally true that most religions do not advocate violence in the teachings ...

I lack the specific background to contrast and compare the teachings of the major religions. I am not a Muslim scholar so am not and would not try to defend Islam or any other faith. From what I have read as content in Islamic Holy Books, I found no explicit tenets for aggressive military action to gain land. I do not believe that any religion which teaches violence against other humans would survive to become a major faith. It would have the longevity of a society which preached absolute celibacy and no procreation.

[TimG]

I do not believe that any religion which teaches violence against other humans would survive to become a major faith.

Actually, the reverse is true. Only those religions that implicitly supported war as a means to spread the faith survive. Religions that are truly non-violent are quickly eradicated by their more aggressive neighbors. It is basic survival of the fittest. Now in the case of Islam the support for the use of war as means to conquer and convert is explicit by the example of Muhammad which makes it much harder for scholars to fiddle with interpretations and claim that 'since Islam is now established it does not need to use war to spread itself'. Edited September 18, 2015 by TimG

[Big Guy]

I understand your point of view but disagree with it. For me to continue to state my position based on your rebuttal I would have to explain how religions do not implicitly support war - then we would again be getting into interpretations, quotes, translations etc. We differ in the way which we initially perceive religions. You have very strong negative views of Islam. That is your right.

Thanks for sharing.

[Guest]

Not just Islam. Any religion that advocates the death penalty for blasphemy, apostasy, being gay, being adulterous, ect, in any of the interpretations, worldwide.

[Bonam]

Not just Islam. Any religion that advocates the death penalty for blasphemy, apostasy, being gay, being adulterous, ect, in any of the interpretations, worldwide.

Indeed. That most certainly includes Christianity as well as Islam. Both have motivated endless generations of fanatics and murderers throughout history.

[Guest]

Indeed. That most certainly includes Christianity as well as Islam. Both have motivated endless generations of fanatics and murderers throughout history.

Absolutely. No religion is above criticism.

[WIP]

Indeed. That most certainly includes Christianity as well as Islam. Both have motivated endless generations of fanatics and murderers throughout history.

And now we have atheist assholes like Sam Harris and Bill Maher, to present a hip, pseudoliberal argument for US neoconservative empire-building! When the neocons were Republican assholes in the Bush Administration and right wing media, they couldn't appeal to anyone to the left of the rabid right. So they recalibrated their message to make bombing, invading and regime-changing targets on the world map is the liberal thing to do.....it's for their own good....to save them from Islam and give them freedom.

[bush_cheney2004]

And now we have atheist assholes like Sam Harris and Bill Maher, to present a hip, pseudoliberal argument for US neoconservative empire-building! When the neocons were Republican assholes in the Bush Administration and right wing media, they couldn't appeal to anyone to the left of the rabid right. So they recalibrated their message to make bombing, invading and regime-changing targets on the world map is the liberal thing to do.....it's for their own good....to save them from Islam and give them freedom.

Well, if it was good enough for Canada (Chretien, Martin, Harper), then by golly it is good enough for 'Murica !

[WIP]

There have been a number of posts placed on this site whose authors claim that they are nationalists or intellectuals discussing social interaction or just sharing the truth or just not being politically correct or whatever. I suggest that their opinions are racist, bigoted, xenophobic, Islamophobic and hate propaganda.

They claim that I am wrong.

The Ku Klux Klan is considered by all to be a racist, bigoted, xenophobic, Islamophobic and hate spreading organization. The following statement is taken from the front page of the official Web Site of the Ku Klux Klan

https://www.kkk.com/

"There is a race war against whites. But our people - my white brothers and sisters - will stay committed to a non-violent resolution. That resolution must consist of solidarity in white communities around the world. The hatred for our children and their future is growing and is being fueled every single day. Stay firm in your convictions. Keep loving your heritage and keep witnessing to others that there is a better way than a war torn, violent, wicked, socialist, new world order. That way is the Christian way - law and order - love of family - love of nation. These are the principles of western Christian civilization. There is a war to destroy these things. Pray that our people see the error of their ways and regain a sense of loyalty. Repent America! Be faithful my fellow believers. " - National Director of The Knights, Pastor Thomas Robb

It reminds me of a discussion I was listening to on a radical left/anarchist podcast discussing the first hit movie after the creation of motion pictures and cinema: Birth of a Nation. This classic silent movie which revolutionized and set the template for how to make action movies and film outdoors (even after the introduction of soundtracks) presents the Northern War of Aggression (some call it The Civil War) as a marauding band of bluecoats supposedly raping and pillaging their cities and farms and worst of all: setting the negroes free to run amok and rape and pillage....until the Ku Klux Klan forms and rides in to save the day, and save the white race in the South.

The message from the KKK and every other rightwing fascist government and movement ALWAYS presents the persecuting dominant class as the real endangered oppressed class....whether they be white Americans, white Europeans, Jews in Israel, the tactic of fascism....which bleeds its way into all nativist rightwing thought to varying degrees, focuses and utilizes the fears, hatreds and resentments of their target base, and it turns from conservativism to fascism when that formerly comfortable ruling class is declining in income and status, and fearing losing control and the benefits they've enjoyed while being #1.

[bush_cheney2004]

...The message from the KKK and every other rightwing fascist government and movement ALWAYS presents the persecuting dominant class as the real endangered oppressed class....whether they be white Americans, white Europeans, Jews in Israel, the tactic of fascism....which bleeds its way into all nativist rightwing thought to varying degrees, focuses and utilizes the fears, hatreds and resentments of their target base, and it turns from conservativism to fascism when that formerly comfortable ruling class is declining in income and status, and fearing losing control and the benefits they've enjoyed while being #1.

KKK message worked pretty well in Quebec, Ontario and Saskatchewan too !