PIK Posted August 28, 2015 Author Report Posted August 28, 2015 what principles, what value assessment are you using to completely ignore that Canada is an emissions peddler? How is it you conveniently continue to ignore the emissions created by the burning of Canadian exported oil/gas/coal/tarsands sludge? Because there is not enough emissions from this country to worry about. And we do not need to destroy our economy for that. Where is the outrage over california and its dirtiest oil in NA. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Argus Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 what principles, what value assessment are you using to completely ignore that Canada is an emissions peddler? How is it you conveniently continue to ignore the emissions created by the burning of Canadian exported oil/gas/coal/tarsands sludge? You want to hold us responsible for other countries burning our oil? Do we get to deduct the oil we burn which we buy from other countries from our guilt-producing emissions? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
On Guard for Thee Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 what principles, what value assessment are you using to completely ignore that Canada is an emissions peddler? How is it you conveniently continue to ignore the emissions created by the burning of Canadian exported oil/gas/coal/tarsands sludge? If it's not burned in Canada, it doesn't count. Did you not get the memo? Quote
Argus Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 If it's not burned in Canada, it doesn't count. Did you not get the memo? So if we buy it elsewhere and burn it we're responsible. If we export it and someone else burns it we're still responsible. Just an honest question here. Do you lefties get up in the morning crying over the mass of guilt and shame you feel about everything? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
On Guard for Thee Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 So if we buy it elsewhere and burn it we're responsible. If we export it and someone else burns it we're still responsible. Just an honest question here. Do you lefties get up in the morning crying over the mass of guilt and shame you feel about everything? No we get up in the morning with concerns for certain things, such as the environment, which keeps you righties alive as well. Quote
Argus Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 No we get up in the morning with concerns for certain things, such as the environment, which keeps you righties alive as well. Well stop being concerned. PM Harper will do the right thing. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
On Guard for Thee Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 Well stop being concerned. PM Harper will do the right thing. He's gonna step down? Hadn't heard. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 Got a lot of intensive manufacturing in BC, do you? A large oil industry? And doesn't most of your power come from hydro anyway? So, I doubt you do but if you actually want to understand how the carbon tax has worked in BC, read this. The tax has actually become quite popular. "Polls have shown anywhere from 55 to 65 percent support for the tax," says Stewart Elgie, director of the University of Ottawa's Institute of the Environment. "And it would be hard to find any tax that the majority of people say they like, but the majority of people say they like this tax." It certainly doesn't hurt that the tax, well, worked. That's clear on at least three fronts: Major reductions in fuel usage in BC, a corresponding decline in greenhouse gas emissions, and the lack of a negative impact on the BC economy. I know that doesn't mesh with what breathless hyperbolic right wing columnists tell you. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted August 28, 2015 Report Posted August 28, 2015 Regardless of which party wins the Oct. 19 federal election, Canadians can look forward to being ripped off for billions of dollars in the international carbon trading market. Carbon trading is intrinsic to both NDP Leader Tom Mulcair’s and Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau’s carbon pricing plans, since both would use cap-and-trade schemes, Maybe you could be a bit more dilgent in your research. If you searched the entire web, I doubt you could find a less reliable source on which to base your fears than Lorrie Goldstein. Here is what he said on August 1. Based on their records in government, there is little reason to believe the Conservatives or Liberals will actually do what they say. Throughout his nine years in office, Harper has paid lip-service to reducing emissions while doing little to reduce them, relying mainly on the provinces to lower emissions. It’s doubtful he would launch a national carbon pricing scheme unless the United States, our major trading partner, does, because then he would have little choice.As for the Liberals, based on their record when they were in government from 1993 to 2006, they constantly talked about lowering emissions without ever lowering them. So, which is it? Is the sky falling or can we count on Harper and Trudeau to ignore their environmental promises? In fact, I looked at the Liberal Party website and couldn't find much of anything on carbon pricing. I did find a story online where he said he'd try to set a national standard and but let the promises determine how they met them. Before you get your knickers in a knot, maybe you could do a little research. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
TimG Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) So, I doubt you do but if you actually want to understand how the carbon tax has worked in BC, read this.So what? A tax which set at the largest politically viable level reduced per capita consumption by 10% relative to the rest of Canada. The resulting reductions in emissions are a pittance. The only good thing about the BC tax is it was a sop to shut the CO2 obsessives up for awhile but in the long term it will not eliminate the need for fossil fuels to keep the economy running. Its direct negative impacts were likely not measurable because BC has so much hydro and little industry that needs to use fossil fuels (the cement industry responded by importing cement instead of paying the extra tax see). In Germany they avoided the impact of GHG policies by simply exempting industry from the renewable levies and the recent removal that exemption has lead to manufacturers relocating to cheaper jurisdictions. IOW: BC has a unique combination of circumstances that blunted the negative impacts but the commonly held belief that increasing energy costs hurts the economy is still true: http://www.academia.edu/7733759/The_Effect_of_Energy_Prices_on_Competitiveness_of_Energy-Intensive_Industries_in_the_EU The EU has realised that it can lose its competitive advantage against its main economic partners, primarily to the USA, due to high energy prices. The production costs of energy intensive products and the transportation costs will increase compared to its competitors, which will result in substantial adverse effects not only on product export ability, but also on national competitiveness. What I find ironic/hypocritical are people who claim that the rules of economics apply to CO2 emissions (increase the cost to reduce them) but those same rules do not apply to industries that need a lot of energy (i.e. increasing the cost of energy does not reduce industrial activity). But I guess economics, like science, is something that CO2 ideologues only care about as tool to advance their ideology. When it does not support their ideology they simply ignore it. Edited August 29, 2015 by TimG Quote
Argus Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 I know that doesn't mesh with what breathless hyperbolic right wing columnists tell you. I haven't been reading any 'breathless right wing columnists'. But, I can do basic math. I can evaluate what we are paying vs what we are accomplishing. Maybe people in BC are dumb enough to think that paying extra money is helping the environment in some way. Most people actually know close to nothing about the whole business, after all. I happen to be one of those who has seen the numbers. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
ReeferMadness Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 IOW: BC has a unique combination of circumstances that blunted the negative impacts but the commonly held belief that increasing energy costs hurts the economy is still true: Citation? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
On Guard for Thee Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 I haven't been reading any 'breathless right wing columnists'. But, I can do basic math. I can evaluate what we are paying vs what we are accomplishing. Maybe people in BC are dumb enough to think that paying extra money is helping the environment in some way. Most people actually know close to nothing about the whole business, after all. I happen to be one of those who has seen the numbers. Apparently some people somewhere are dumb enough to not see that the BC carbon tax is revenue neutral, so the only people paying extra are those who use extra, and that it has actually worked quite well to reduce consumption. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 I haven't been reading any 'breathless right wing columnists'. But, I can do basic math. I can evaluate what we are paying vs what we are accomplishing. Maybe people in BC are dumb enough to think that paying extra money is helping the environment in some way. Most people actually know close to nothing about the whole business, after all. I happen to be one of those who has seen the numbers. Sure, you just listen to the Harper echo chamber and pull stuff out of your butt. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
TimG Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) Citation?Try responding to the arguments made. I provided enough supporting links to conclude you are making excuses to avoid responding to the argument itself. Edited August 29, 2015 by TimG Quote
ReeferMadness Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 Try responding to the arguments made. I provided enough supporting links to conclude you are making excuses to avoid responding to the argument itself. You haven't made any arguments. You posted a link that said that higher input costs might hurt competitiveness? Really? Wow, that's genius! Your citation made no mention of carbon taxes. None. Try finding a relevant link. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Argus Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 Apparently some people somewhere are dumb enough to not see that the BC carbon tax is revenue neutral, so the only people paying extra are those who use extra, and that it has actually worked quite well to reduce consumption. You mean the people who have to use power or gas? In any event, as far as I know the federal parties are not proposing anything revenue neutral. They have big promises they want to pay for and not enough money to do it with. Ontario's soon to be imposed 'cap and trade' scheme will most definitely not be revenue neutral. And unlike BC Ontario is not only a lot colder, but has a lot more industry - well, what's left after ten years of Liberal mismanagement and huge power increases. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
TimG Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) Your citation made no mention of carbon taxes. None.Are you really that dense? Carbon taxes increase the cost of energy therefore any consequence of increases in energy prices is a consequence of carbon taxes. The net effect of carbon taxes might be reduced in some circumstances because "alternatives" are cheaper than paying the carbon tax but these alternatives still represent an increase in energy cost compared to the pre-tax scenario. The only pain free way to reduce emissions if to provide an energy source that matches the reliability, flexibility and cost of fossil fuels without the emissions. Any energy source that is less reliable, flexible or more expensive will increase the cost of energy which disproportionately impacts those people and businesses which spend a larger portion of their income on energy. When it comes to business it means there will be fewer of those businesses. Edited August 29, 2015 by TimG Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 You mean the people who have to use power or gas? In any event, as far as I know the federal parties are not proposing anything revenue neutral. They have big promises they want to pay for and not enough money to do it with. Ontario's soon to be imposed 'cap and trade' scheme will most definitely not be revenue neutral. And unlike BC Ontario is not only a lot colder, but has a lot more industry - well, what's left after ten years of Liberal mismanagement and huge power increases. Of course people do have to use power and gas. What has worked in BC and other provinces that have some form of carbon tax, is that wasteful use has been reduced significantly. Quote
Argus Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 Sure, you just listen to the Harper echo chamber and pull stuff out of your butt. My decision on CO2 emissions has zip to do with Harper and everything to do with very simple, basic numbers. The fact we emit about 1.6% of the world's CO2 and that India alone, just by itself, will increase its CO2 emissions by ALL OF WHAT WE PRODUCE now every single year for the next 20 years makes whatever we do a total waste of time. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 Of course people do have to use power and gas. What has worked in BC and other provinces that have some form of carbon tax, is that wasteful use has been reduced significantly. Which benefits whom? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
On Guard for Thee Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 Which benefits whom? All of us. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 Are you really that dense? I asked you if you had a citation that addressed the carbon tax. Since you responded with a snotty personal attack, I can safely assume the answer is no. The BC carbon tax was implemented to be revenue neutral. So, costs went up and taxes went down. The effect is to motivate companies and individuals to use the savings to find less energy intensive ways to to the things they do. In BC it worked. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
TimG Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) The BC carbon tax was implemented to be revenue neutral. So, costs went up and taxes went down. The effect is to motivate companies and individuals to use the savings to find less energy intensive ways to to the things they do. In BC it worked.The argument stands on its own. You can address it or evade it with silly citation request. In any case, a revenue neutral tax is not revenue neutral for large energy consumers and they will see increases in input costs notwithstanding any savings (i.e. a business that is no longer profitable because of the carbon tax does not see any benefit from reduced corporate taxes). BC does not obviously have a large number of industries that fall into that category due to the availability of hydro power and a small number of manufacturers so the negative effects in BC were too small to measure. You cannot assume that the BC experience would show up in other regions with different mixes of energy sources and industries. The fundamental law of economics does not change: increase the cost of energy you will reduce the number of businesses that must consume a lot of energy to operate. Edited August 29, 2015 by TimG Quote
Argus Posted August 29, 2015 Report Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) All of us. You are spending a fortune to pull a thimble full of water from the swimming pool while other countries are buying extra buckets so they can add it in faster. It is a total waste of time and money. Edited August 29, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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