Gender-Sex Categories

-1=e^ipi · August 20, 2015

So as a greater percentage of the population identifies as non-cisgender and goes through gender/sex reassignment surgery, the question of if only having 2 legal genders/sexes is sufficient.

Some countries such as Germany, Australia and New Zealand have a third legal sex, X for indeterminant. The arguably better represents intersex people and non-gender binary people.

However, there are some issues with both Canada's traditional system and the system in Australia. For example, the healthcare needs of transmen may be different from the healthcare needs of men, yet if both groups are legally classified as M then this may result in worse healthcare quality for transpeople.

Ultimately, I think that the main problem is that usage of the words gender and sex is often interchangeable and as a result things become unnecessarily confusing since sometimes gender and sex mean the same thing and other times they do not. The distinction between Genetic sex, phenotypical sex and gender identity are rarely made. Whether or not you agree with transpeople, surely everyone would benefit from having more clearly defined categories.

I suggest that Canada and other countries adopt the following gender-sex classification system:

- People are categorized based upon 3 traits: genetic sex, phenotypical sex and gender identity.

- There are 3 legal options for genetic sex: female (F), male (M) and intersex (X).

- Genetic sex is based on your DNA. Most people with two X chromosomes will be F, most people with an X and a Y will be M. In some rare cases such as Kleinfelter's syndrome, people will be classified as intersex.

- There are 3 legal options for phenotypical sex: female (F), male (M) and other (X).

- Individuals that externally appear female will be F, individuals that externally appear male will be M, and individuals that are ambiguous will be X. People can change their phenotypical sex, but only after surgery or medical intervention such as a vaginoplasty.

- There are 3 legal options for gender identity: female (F), male (M) and other (X).

- Gender identity will depend on what the individual identifies as and an individual can change their legal gender identity simply by filling out a form and submitting it to the government.

Government issued documents will indicate someone's gender-sex classification with 3 letters corresponding to the person's genetic sex, phenotypical sex and gender identity. Here are some examples:

- A person who is genetically female, phenotypically appears to be female and identifies as a female gendered person will be FFF.

- A post-op transwoman who identifies as a female gendered person will be MFF.

- A pre-op transman who identifies as a male gendered person will be FFM.

- An intersex person who phenotypically appears to be female and identifies as a male gendered person will be XFM.

- A genetic male who phenotypically appears to be male and identifies as agender will be MMX.

- A genetic female who has undergone androgynous surgery and identifies as gender-fluid will be FXX.

Thoughts?

Edited August 26, 2015 by -1=e^ipi

-1=e^ipi · August 20, 2015

I'll give another example. This trigendered pyrofox would be MMX:

TimG · August 20, 2015

Biological sex is the only attribute that matters as far as the government is concerned since it is only attribute that can be independently verified with science. Gender is irrelevant.

-1=e^ipi · August 20, 2015

Biological sex is the only attribute that matters as far as the government is concerned since it is only attribute that can be independently verified with science. Gender is irrelevant.

But phenotypical sex and genetic sex are different types of biological sex.

TimG · August 20, 2015

But phenotypical sex and genetic sex are different types of biological sex.

Irrelevant semantics. The point is the government should only care about what can be objectively verified. It should not care what gender people think they are. Edited August 20, 2015 by TimG

Bryan · August 20, 2015

Irrelevant semantics. The point is the government should only care about what can be objectively verified. It should not care what gender people think they are.

Yup. If someone can just decide what gender they are, why can't they just decide what age they are?

I feel younger, so I want to change my birth cert. to reflect that. What? I can't do that? How about if I get a face lift and take HGH and testosterone injections?

Come to think of it, dogs are pretty cool. Maybe I'd like to be a dog. Yep, I want to legally change my status from human to dog. You know, because I identify with them.

cybercoma · August 20, 2015

Biological sex is the only attribute that matters as far as the government is concerned since it is only attribute that can be independently verified with science. Gender is irrelevant.

Sex is rarely ever scientifically verified at birth. When's the last time you heard of a baby having a gene test done?

TimG · August 20, 2015

Sex is rarely ever scientifically verified at birth. When's the last time you heard of a baby having a gene test done?

A physical inspection is alway done at birth and that is enough in 99.99% of the cases. It does not change the point that the government does not care what gender people think they are - it only cares about what can be independently verified.

-1=e^ipi · August 20, 2015

It does not change the point that the government does not care what gender people think they are

Yet governments around the world allow people to change the gender of their birth certificate. If you were born in Ontario, you just need a letter from a psychologist claiming that you have gender disphoria.

TimG · August 20, 2015

Yet governments around the world allow people to change the gender of their birth certificate. If you were born in Ontario, you just need a letter from a psychologist claiming that you have gender disphoria.

Well there is a difference between what government should do and what they actually do. It is easier to given into a bunch of self absorbed activists than to defend a consistent principle.

Black Dog · August 20, 2015

Well there is a difference between what government should do and what they actually do. It is easier to given into a bunch of self absorbed activists than to defend a consistent principle.

And what principle is that?

TimG · August 20, 2015

And what principle is that?

Whatever criteria is used it must be objective and independently verifiable. It cannot depend on someone's 'opinion'

Black Dog · August 20, 2015

Whatever criteria is used it must be objective and independently verifiable. It cannot depend on someone's 'opinion'

Why does it matter? Why should the government be concerned with an individual's biological sex at all?

Bonam · August 20, 2015

Sex is rarely ever scientifically verified at birth. When's the last time you heard of a baby having a gene test done?

Probably a gene test is done every time that the baby's sex is not obvious from a visual inspection.

TimG · August 20, 2015

Why does it matter? Why should the government be concerned with an individual's biological sex at all?

The premise is 'if the government is going to keep track of sex then it should be based on objectively verifiable criteria'. That said, I am not convinced the government needs to care and would be in favour of complete elimination of it as a criteria on forms and in government records. Edited August 20, 2015 by TimG

Bonam · August 20, 2015

That said, I am not convinced the government needs to care and would be in favour of complete elimination of it as a criteria on forms and in government records.

That would be nice. Unfortunately, the government currently uses sex as a consideration in a number of ways, such as when it comes to family law. Also, it's used by a number of other institutions that deal extensively with the public, like scholarship funds, employers that are required to achieve certain levels of "diversity" in their workforces, car insurance companies, and many many others.

I'd be all for all these considerations being eliminated.

-1=e^ipi · August 20, 2015

I'd be all for all these considerations being eliminated.

So you are for 1 or 0 categories? Everyone is considered human?

cybercoma · August 20, 2015

Remove sex entirely from identification.

Bonam · August 20, 2015

Remove sex entirely from identification.

So when you are, for example, applying for a scholarship that is reserved for female students, what do you use to prove that you are, in fact, female? Would they be required to take you at your word, or would it be the responsibility of each such institution to determine whether each applicant is male/female in some way? Or would you advocate eliminating all such scholarships?

cybercoma · August 21, 2015

So when you are, for example, applying for a scholarship that is reserved for female students, what do you use to prove that you are, in fact, female? Would they be required to take you at your word, or would it be the responsibility of each such institution to determine whether each applicant is male/female in some way? Or would you advocate eliminating all such scholarships?

I'm sorry. Do they make you prove it beyond ticking a box?

cybercoma · August 21, 2015

I can answer that. I've sat on panels that decide such things. We don't make people prove it. We take them at their word.

TimG · August 21, 2015

I can answer that. I've sat on panels that decide such things. We don't make people prove it. We take them at their word.

Then there is absolutely no point in offering sex specific scholarships if someone with any gender can qualify by lying.

Bonam · August 21, 2015

I'm sorry. Do they make you prove it beyond ticking a box?

I can answer that. I've sat on panels that decide such things. We don't make people prove it. We take them at their word.

In my experience, most scholarships require you to submit a copy of your ID (such as a driver's license) along with other documents.

The same can be said of car insurance (where rates can vary between males and females), job applications (where some companies may be trying to increase their representation of females in some departments), and many other cases.

cybercoma · August 21, 2015

Then there is absolutely no point in offering sex specific scholarships if someone with any gender can qualify by lying.

Most people aren't liars.

cybercoma · August 21, 2015

In my experience, most scholarships require you to submit a copy of your ID (such as a driver's license) along with other documents.

The same can be said of car insurance (where rates can vary between males and females), job applications (where some companies may be trying to increase their representation of females in some departments), and many other cases.

I've never had to submit ID to prove my gender to anyone for any scholarships, grants, bursaries, insurance, job applications, or anything else.