AFN asks Ottawa to declare all aboriginal languages official

[TimG]

Yes there's benefits, but if after that many hours of training students aren't fluent in the language or even halfway

So? You still learned about how another language is structured and learned to appreciate how difficult it is to learn a language. This is knowledge that is valuable on its own. If nothing else you should have gained some empathy for immigrants struggling with English.

[Keepitsimple]

There are benefits to learning second languages much like their are benefits to learning to play an instrument. So I would say it was not a waste of time unless you think all school is a waste of time.

Especially French - and especially at a younger age. Being one of the "Romantic" languages rooted in Latin, if you can learn enough to converse, you can pick up Spanish and Italian fairly easily - at least enough to make yourself an effective tourist. Montreal has a large Italian community for example and they pick up French quite quickly. Knowing what I know now - I wish I had worked a little (lot) harder in my French classes.

[Argus]

Why would they agree to it anywhere given their official support for official bilingualism? Same goes for the Liberals, Greens and Conservatives.

Because they are a Quebec based party of soft nationalism. Most of their voters used to be BQ voters. It would be a popular move in Quebec, and they would spin it to 'progressives' elsewhere as supporting minority, ie, French, cultural preservation.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Argus

[Argus]

I took french classes for 12 years in grade school and myself nor anyone else who took them with me became fluent in french because of it. Epic waste of time and resources.

Even most of those who take french immersion in school wind up losing it shortly after graduation. If you don't have a regular, ongoing need for a second language it quickly fades away.

[Second-class Canadian]

Though learning a second language is beneficial, why must it necessarily be French?

[Smallc]

Though learning a second language is beneficial, why must it necessarily be French?

Because this is Canada, and...history.

[Second-class Canadian]

Because this is Canada, and...history.

La grande majorité des anglophones faillissent de bien apprendre le français, ce qui en fait une grande perte d'argent. Par exemple, je peux imaginer qu'un habitant de Vancouver pourrait mieux apprendre le chinois ou de certaines parties des prairies, l'allemend grâce à la réalité de la démographie locale. Le bilinguisme officiel reflète rarement la réalité locale au Canada.

[Smallc]

Not everyone in Canada learns French anymore. I certainly didn't in school. I think you're mistaken on the reality of the times.

[Second-class Canadian]

Not everyone in Canada learns French anymore. I certainly didn't in school. I think you're mistaken on the reality of the times.

In BC you could choose between French, Spanish, German, Russian, Arabic, Mandarin Chinese with simplified characters, and Japanese. In my opinion, even more options should be added to allow BC to develop trade and other relations with more countries. This let's the schools, parents, and learners to respond more freely to the worldwide language market. BC also allows for a wide range of choices.

If I am correct, neither Quebec nor Ontario give such choices. It's all French in Ontario and all English in Quebec. This prevents schools from adapting adequately to the language market, resulting in mismatches between the language needs of international businesses and the languages the kids learn in school.

I know French and even I find Chinese to be more useful to me in BC.

[Second-class Canadian]

This brings up another question. I've come across many monolingual English speakers defending compulsory French online, some of them quite aggressively. What makes monolingual English speakers so aggressively pri-French is a mystery I have yet to decipher.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Second-class Canadian

[Smallc]

It's all French in Ontario and all English in Quebec.

That's for historical and current realities in those provinces. The southern portions of Manitoba are the same, as is New Brunswick. You can add a third language in most places though. In Winnipeg for example, Tagalog is widely spoken.

[Second-class Canadian]

That's for historical and current realities in those provinces. The southern portions of Manitoba are the same, as is New Brunswick. You can add a third language in most places though. In Winnipeg for example, Tagalog is widely spoken.

I'm not sure about current realities when I'd visited Ottawa a while back. Though I speak French with my mother and my extended family on her side and though I speak English better than Chinese, and though I personally use French but not Chinese at work, I still found myself using Chinese far more frequently than French in Ottawa, whether in shops, at a bank, and at restaurants.

I think it's more a matter of BC catching up to the reality more quickly than Ontario is.

[Evening Star]

I'm not sure about current realities when I'd visited Ottawa a while back. Though I speak French with my mother and my extended family on her side and though I speak English better than Chinese, and though I personally use French but not Chinese at work, I still found myself using Chinese far more frequently than French in Ottawa, whether in shops, at a bank, and at restaurants.

I think it's more a matter of BC catching up to the reality more quickly than Ontario is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ottawa#Languages

Those who identify their mother tongue as English constitute 62.4 percent, while those with French as their mother tongue make up 14.2 percent of the population. In terms of respondents' knowledge of one or both official languages, 59.9 percent and 1.5 percent of the population have knowledge of English only and French only, respectively; while 37.2 percent have knowledge of both official languages. An additional 20.4 percent list languages other than English and French as their mother tongue. These include Arabic (3.2%), Chinese (3.0%), Spanish (1.2%), Italian (1.1%), and many others.^[1]

For Stats Can figures: http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/dp-pd/prof/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CSD&Code1=3506008&Data=Count&SearchText=Ottawa&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&A1=All&B1=Language&Custom=&TABID=1#tabs2

I grew up in Ottawa and live here currently and your comment makes no sense to me at all. I hear and (try to) use French all the time. Ever been to University of Ottawa campus? Vanier? Orleans? Anywhere downtown?

Edit: The only way I could understand this is if you were in a west-end suburb.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Evening Star

[Smallc]

I'm not sure about current realities when I'd visited Ottawa a while back. Though I speak French with my mother and my extended family on her side and though I speak English better than Chinese, and though I personally use French but not Chinese at work, I still found myself using Chinese far more frequently than French in Ottawa, whether in shops, at a bank, and at restaurants.

That would certainly not be the norm.

[Argus]

This brings up another question. I've come across many monolingual English speakers defending compulsory French online, some of them quite aggressively. What makes monolingual English speakers so aggressively pri-French is a mystery I have yet to decipher.

Political correctness.

[Evening Star]

Out of curiosity, how do you know these people are monolingual? Are they identifying themselves as such? Have you asked them why they are defending 'compulsory French'?

[Second-class Canadian]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ottawa#Languages

For Stats Can figures: http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/dp-pd/prof/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CSD&Code1=3506008&Data=Count&SearchText=Ottawa&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&A1=All&B1=Language&Custom=&TABID=1#tabs2

I grew up in Ottawa and live here currently and your comment makes no sense to me at all. I hear and use French all the time. Ever been to University of Ottawa campus? Vanier? Orleans? Anywhere downtown?

Sure I hear French in the streets more than Chinese, and usually only visit Orleans, Casselman, or Gatineau to visit family. Otherwise when I visit Ottawa I'm usually in the downtown area and have found that in business outside of government Chinese is more dominant than French. Even at work I use French to communicate with Quebec by email but rarely with Ottawa.

Now I also acknowledge that part of this might be illusory in that I may have interacted with French speakers in English without realizing it whereas the Chinese will likely speak English less well. This may play a role in the perception too in that I might continue a conversation in English with the French speaker without knowing but switch to Chinese when I see the Chinese may be struggling more in English, but even that would make Chinese more useful than French in some cases and thus warrant allowing more second language options in school.

[Second-class Canadian]

Out of curiosity, how do you know these people are monolingual? Are they identifying themselves as such? Have you asked them why they are defending 'compulsory French'?

I've switched to French in some cases only to be told.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Second-class Canadian

[Second-class Canadian]

Now that I think about it more, I think it has to do with the following. French speakers speak English better than Chinese speakers usually. As a result, while many know French, their knowledge of English makes them invisible in the private sector where language laws are not enforced as much. Chinese speakers, not knowing English as well, are more noticed. In a sense this makes a knowledge if French more redundant than a knowledge of Chinese, resulting in Chinese being used more than French in the private sector. Add to that that with many French speakers getting hired in the government, this takes away their representation in the private sector, further increasing Chinese dominance over French there.

[Evening Star]

I'm still not sold on this 'Chinese dominance over French' in Ottawa. Using the StatsCan numbers, the number of people whose language most spoken at home is "Chinese, n.o.s." is 8475 with 4000 claiming Cantonese and 5190 claiming Mandarin. I don't see how that could result in anything resembling dominance.

[Argus]

Sure I hear French in the streets more than Chinese, and usually only visit Orleans, Casselman, or Gatineau to visit family. Otherwise when I visit Ottawa I'm usually in the downtown area and have found that in business outside of government Chinese is more dominant than French.

Maybe if you confine yourself to Chinese restaurants. Chinese is nowhere near prevalent in Ottawa, it is in public use a fraction of a fraction of the time French is. I wouldn't even say it was in third place. Arabic is, probably followed by Hindu or Somali or Vietnamese. Mandarin or Cantonese would be in maybe eighth place. A distant eighth. Italian would probably come before it, too.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Argus

[Evening Star]

I linked the stats already. Chinese does seem to come fourth after Arabic but it does not come close to dominance. (Hindu isn't a language btw).

[Argus]

I'm still not sold on this 'Chinese dominance over French' in Ottawa. Using the StatsCan numbers, the number of people whose language most spoken at home is "Chinese, n.o.s." is 8475 with 4000 claiming Cantonese and 5190 claiming Mandarin. I don't see how that could result in anything resembling dominance.

Yeah, it's nonsense.

[Argus]

I linked the stats already. Chinese does seem to come fourth after Arabic but it does not come close to dominance. (Hindu isn't a language btw).

Tsk, Hindi. I'm talking about the languages I hear in public, in business. There are an awful lot of Indians and Arabs involved in retail and the service sector in Ottawa. The Chinese in business seem to mostly cater to their own people aside from restaurants.

[Second-class Canadian]

I'be found many Japanese restaurants are Chinese too. That said, the simple fact that I know Chinese might also affect my experiences compared to Arabic which I do not know. But between English and Chinese, I think part of it is that most French speakers know English extremely well. As a resuult, French might be statistically high and heard between friends and family (just like in my case), but otherwise invisible in the business sector since they all speak English so well we don't even know. Since some Chinese are weaker in English, it's easier to just switch to Chinese and so make it more obvious.

To take an extreme example, imagine a city where one quarter of the population speaks English only, one half English and French, and one quarter Chinese only. Clearly the game of numbers aside, Chinese would be more dominant in business than French in such a city even though we might here more French in private conversations in the streets.

Though this is an exaggeration of reality, it does illustrate what might be happening here. Then add to that that if the English and French bilinguals mostly work for the government, that would only further increase the dominance of Chinese over French in spite numbers alone.

Outside the downtown core though, I have no doubt that French dominates far more. But if I rarely go there, then for me who, whenever I visit Ottawa it's usually downtown, then yes Chinese is more useful.