.

[Bob Macadoo]

Or do you beleive in the rights of someone to keep their head covered simply because you have been told that they should have that right, in other words for you the charter is absolute, it is your moral and ethical guide?

It's not a guide.....it's a documented reflection of a societal ideal chosen by the collective.....fought against by every brown bag bigot that crosses a message board.....even though they'd be the first crying for it if any of their hate speech landed them in hot water.

There are reasonable limits on our rights.... .

Yes the reasonable limits are placed as to their infringement on other's rights. So the argument is the niqab must be infringing on women's rights....b/c you believe that......so it must be banned. Even though there is no universal....or even majority truth to it. Edited April 21, 2015 by Bob Macadoo

[Michael Hardner]

The point I am making is there is no absolute principal here. Free speech is not absolute in this country and the question of what is allowed comes down to a question of what people are comfortable with.

Yes, I agree. Your position is reasonable.

When it comes to the niqab reasonable people can argue it is not a religious requirement and it does symbolize some pretty objectionable ideas.

It's a point of view but the fact that it wasn't even mentioned in the court case summary, and the fact that other religious symbols have already been grandfathered means that this is a tenuous point at best.

You may have no problem with objectionable ideas which means you should also be fine nazi uniforms and KKK hoods. If you want to argue that those things are beyond the pale all you are doing is proving my point about the rules being subjective and you can't say people are wrong to call for a ban on niqabs - only that you are not personally bothered by them.

The problem I have is that the argument about Nazi uniforms misses the religious point entirely. Whether or not I find these things objectionable is beside the point, ie. I may not agree with what you say but I will fight to a paper cut your right to say it etc.

[Argus]

I do understand people who lament change, especially cultural change, but the world has been crashing together since ... I don't know ... 1492. You can put a fence up around your country, if you can convince people to do that, but you will miss out on economic and cultural developments in the world.

Perhaps you might want to detail those economic and "cultural" developments we would miss?

[Michael Hardner]

Perhaps you might want to detail those economic and "cultural" developments we would miss?

Foreign investment, all kinds of economic opportunities, and non-homogeneous culture.

[Argus]

Foreign investment, all kinds of economic opportunities, and non-homogeneous culture.

Lots of countries enjoy large amounts of foreign investment and economic opportunities without immigration. As to 'non homogenous cultures' since most are distinctly inferior to our own I can just as easily do without, thanks.

[On Guard for Thee]

Lots of countries enjoy large amounts of foreign investment and economic opportunities without immigration. As to 'non homogenous cultures' since most are distinctly inferior to our own I can just as easily do without, thanks.

Then find one of those countries and move there. Simple. Most of us here dont need pasty white to be comfortable.

[jacee]

The point I am making is there is no absolute principal here. Free speech is not absolute in this country and the question of what is allowed comes down to a question of what people are comfortable with. When it comes to the niqab reasonable people can argue it is not a religious requirement and it does symbolize some pretty objectionable ideas. You may have no problem with objectionable ideas which means you should also be fine nazi uniforms and KKK hoods. If you want to argue that those things are beyond the pale all you are doing is proving my point about the rules being subjective and you can't say people are wrong to call for a ban on niqabs - only that you are not personally bothered by them.

Freedom of religion means we respect people's right to practice their religion as they choose, within the law and according to their own personal beliefs.

It specifically does NOT mean that you, or the majority of Canadians, or Harper get to tell anyone how to practice their religion.

.

Edited April 22, 2015 by jacee

[jbg]

What does HAVE other cultures mean.....I seem to be getting an image of a zoo.

Is that what you want your country to look like, a zoo? Your analogy is better than anything I could ever post and get away with.

I am sitting at the computer laughing hysterically.

Edited April 22, 2015 by jbg

[On Guard for Thee]

Is that what you want your country to look like, a zoo? Your analogy is better than anything I could ever post and get away with.

I am sitting at the computer laughing hysterically.

I guess you missed the point.

[jbg]

I guess you missed the point.

If I explained myself you'd call me a racist. I am not interested in a discussion where I have to defend my personal and business inclusiveness against being called a bigot on some board.

[On Guard for Thee]

If I explained myself you'd call me a racist. I am not interested in a discussion where I have to defend my personal and business inclusiveness against being called a bigot on some board.

The idea of having races but keeping the somehow at bay and out of the mainstream seems very strange to me. Which is why it gave me the zoo image. Not sure where your idea comes from.

[jbg]

The idea of having races but keeping the somehow at bay and out of the mainstream seems very strange to me. Which is why it gave me the zoo image. Not sure where your idea comes from.

I don't know about you but I celebrate my ethnicity and religion in synagogue and at in-home rituals, with willing participants. Aside from parades I don't foist my rituals on others. Walking around the streets in costume, consistently is quite different.

[jacee]

I don't know about you but I celebrate my ethnicity and religion in synagogue and at in-home rituals, with willing participants. Aside from parades I don't foist my rituals on others. Walking around the streets in costume, consistently is quite different.

That's you.

Others differ.

That's allowed.

.

[On Guard for Thee]

I don't know about you but I celebrate my ethnicity and religion in synagogue and at in-home rituals, with willing participants. Aside from parades I don't foist my rituals on others. Walking around the streets in costume, consistently is quite different.

Why would walking around in...costume... as you put it, amount to foisting anything on anyone. If you choose to keep your ethnicity behind closed doors, that is certainly your choice. Trying to impede people from displaying their ethnicity is to foist a selectivity on others which is bogus, and illegal in Canada.

[Argus]

Then find one of those countries and move there. Simple. Most of us here dont need pasty white to be comfortable.

Your inability to understand how this could be about more than skin colour is more of a statement about you than me.

[On Guard for Thee]

Your inability to understand how this could be about more than skin colour is more of a statement about you than me.

Oh I think that cat has long since been out of the bag.

[cybercoma]

Lots of countries enjoy large amounts of foreign investment and economic opportunities without immigration. As to 'non homogenous cultures' since most are distinctly inferior to our own I can just as easily do without, thanks.

Fly that bigot flag proudly.

[guyser]

As to 'non homogenous cultures' since most are distinctly inferior to our own I can just as easily do without, thanks.

Well as I know that you dont actually believe that the 'entire culture ' is being reproduced here, I dont know what angle you are coming from.

We have benefitted by the many cultural emigres we have absorbed.

Most of the ones I can think of are food based , or connected to the food base as it were.

We celebrate Chineses New Year here in this office (the day before) and the Chinese employees take the day off.

Who and where would anyone get the great diner food for breakfast if we didnt allow the Greeks in ?

We would likely be a tad ( a lot maybe? ) more plain if we hadnt let in the Italians , not to mention we hassled their very existence for quite some time.

There are so many parts of this city (Toronto) that are ethnic enclaves proudly displaying their cultures that they are actual tourist attractions for those who dont get that exposure where they live.

In New York the answer to where to get the best Chinese food ? Fly to Toronto.

The thing is most of the cultural habits of the newly arrived and the long established at some point become entwined in other cultures.

Its an osmosis thing that is not readily seen, but long after the fact one can make the trace to Culture X for introducing it to us. Why do Vietnamese sandwich shops always have exquisite bread for their sammies? It came with them from Viet Nam, where the French rulers left that delicacy for them to inherit.

How did we get to the point where producing wine in a basement is fun to do and a low cost alternative? The Italians , thats who.

And for every 'I dont care about that stuff', there is multiple dollars being spent to experience that culture.

Caribana brings millions.

Daewali brings a ton of money

Chinese New Year probably surpasses both in spending .

And it goes both ways. Santa Claus parade is a big thing in the city. Those of other cultures are there with their kids enjoying it. They wouldnt have that back home.

The same people jump on the bandwagon and get Turkey's are T-giving. Fly the flag on July 1.

If you can easily do without, okay fine. But I do believe that you may not even be aware of some of the thinggs you enjoy started elsewhere and got imported to this country.

How is Britains #1 dish Butter Chicken ?

But imagine this country with.....Easter, July 1, Thanksgiving and Christmas. That would be a whole shiteload of days with nothing going on , venues not making any money and the economy taking a bit of a hit.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Guyser2

[jbg]

In New York the answer to where to get the best Chinese food ? Fly to Toronto.

Isn't it a bit easier, in New York City, to take the "6" train (a/k/a/ Lexington Avenue Local) to the Canal Street stop and walk a block or two? Or the "4" or "5" train (a/k/a Lexington Avenue Express) to the City Hall stop and walk four longer blocks? Maybe in upstate New York you'd go to Toronto but our Chinatown is better.As for Greek food, Danforth Street beats Astoria, Queens.

[jacee]

Lots of countries enjoy large amounts of foreign investment and economic opportunities without immigration.

What countries don't have immigration?

As to 'non homogenous cultures' since most are distinctly inferior to our own I can just as easily do without, thanks.

"our own" ?

What 'culture' are you referring to Argus?

How many of you are there?

.

[jbg]

What countries don't have immigration?

South Korea, Japan, China, Singapore. In short, the Asian Tigers. And India probably not much.

As to 'non homogenous cultures' since most are distinctly inferior to our own I can just as easily do without, thanks.

"our own" ?

What 'culture' are you referring to Argus?

How many of you are there?

Canadian culture has produced, over the years prior to 1965, a happy, rapidly advancing society. I think Argus over-generalizes. I suspect that Koreans, Japanese and many Chinese produce quite a net gain. At least they do in the U.S., along with Cubans and many Mexicans, which I doubt Canada sees as much of.

To be fair to Argus, many of the immigrants from Muslim countries (I am phrasing it that way since Muslim immigrants from such countries as India do just fine) are just not interested in fitting in. Many of them want to change our rules to fit them. For example, they want the Holocaust not to be taught in schools. This is especially prevalent in Britain. They want Halal food only to be served in schools. They want genders separated in public swimming pools. This has happened in Calgary.

I'm all for immigration if the immigrants come for a better life, not to push our countries towards the barbarity of the countries from which they come.

[poochy]

Freedom of religion means we respect people's right to practice their religion as they choose, within the law and according to their own personal beliefs.

It specifically does NOT mean that you, or the majority of Canadians, or Harper get to tell anyone how to practice their religion.

.

Yep, within the limits we collectively decide to impose, now tell us why we can't tell people they can't have their faces covered, and then tell me it's their right, and it's their right because people decided it could be, except when we limit those rights, and on goes the infinite loop of lefty logic, that's of course until you point it out, then the train jumps the tracks right off the loop into, 'you're just a racist'.

[jbg]

Yep, within the limits we collectively decide to impose, now tell us why we can't tell people they can't have their faces covered, and then tell me it's their right, and it's their right because people decided it could be, except when we limit those rights, and on goes the infinite loop of lefty logic, that's of course until you point it out, then the train jumps the tracks right off the loop into, 'you're just a racist'.

What comes clear is that the lefties don't care much about what makes Canada and U.S. great countries. It is the women's', and other peoples' freedom from subjugation. It is about individual and not "group" rights. Canada is not Afghanistan. If the groups want that amount of control over their women, let them impose it in Afghanistan or whatever sh**hole they come from.

[guyser]

It is the women's', and other peoples' freedom from subjugation.

Lets remember this...moving on...

It is about individual and not "group" rights. If the groups want that amount of control over their women, let them impose it in Afghanistan or whatever sh**hole they come from.

Hmm...a post about being free from subjugation all the while wanting subjugation.

Please....

[On Guard for Thee]

What comes clear is that the lefties don't care much about what makes Canada and U.S. great countries. It is the women's', and other peoples' freedom from subjugation. It is about individual and not "group" rights. Canada is not Afghanistan. If the groups want that amount of control over their women, let them impose it in Afghanistan or whatever sh**hole they come from.

You could not be more wrong. Part of what makes Canada great are the freedoms we enjoy, and cherish.