jbg Posted October 13, 2014 Report Posted October 13, 2014 Israel are the primary perpetrators of the violence, so why should the Palestinians tolerate it?Is that a sick attempt at a joke? Did someone hack your account? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Bryan Posted October 13, 2014 Report Posted October 13, 2014 Is that a sick attempt at a joke? Did someone hack your account? Neither. Quote
jbg Posted October 14, 2014 Report Posted October 14, 2014 Israel are the primary perpetrators of the violence, so why should the Palestinians tolerate it?Is that a sick attempt at a joke? Did someone hack your account?Neither.You have never struck me as a Jew-hater or delegitimizer of Israel. Guess I was wrong. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Bryan Posted October 14, 2014 Report Posted October 14, 2014 You have never struck me as a Jew-hater or delegitimizer of Israel. Guess I was wrong. You're wrong there too. Quote
jbg Posted October 14, 2014 Report Posted October 14, 2014 You're wrong there too.Then how can you honestly say that the Jews are the main perpetrators of the violence? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Bryan Posted October 14, 2014 Report Posted October 14, 2014 Then how can you honestly say that the Jews are the main perpetrators of the violence? I never said "the Jews". Don't poison the well. Quote
jbg Posted October 14, 2014 Report Posted October 14, 2014 I never said "the Jews". Don't poison the well.Anti-Zionism = Anti-Judaism Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Bryan Posted October 14, 2014 Report Posted October 14, 2014 Anti-Zionism = Anti-Judaism False premise. Quote
marcus Posted October 14, 2014 Report Posted October 14, 2014 Anti-Zionism = Anti-Judaism You are wrong. No, anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism As an idea, a Jewish homeland was always controversial. As a reality, Israel still is - and it is not anti-Jewish to say so From the beginning, political Zionism was a controversial movement even among Jews. So strong was the opposition of German orthodox and reform rabbis to the Zionist idea in the name of Judaism that Theodor Herzl changed the venue of the First Zionist Congress in 1897 from Munich to Basle in Switzerland. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
Big Guy Posted October 14, 2014 Author Report Posted October 14, 2014 Looks like things are not getting any better between Palestinians and Israelis in East Jerusalem. Al-Aqsa mosque is in occupied East Jerusalem and Israeli police prevented dozens of Palestinian worshippers from entering the compound to perform dawn prayers a day after clashes between the two sides. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/10/palestinian-worshippers-barred-from-al-aqsa-2014101484255361802.html Many worshippers trying to enter the compound on Tuesday were turned away by police, who prevented all but those aged over 60 from entering the site, forcing many Palestinians to perform their dawn prayers in the street. Al Jazeera's Nisreen El-Shamayleh, reporting from Jerusalem, said the police used stun grenades to disperse many of the younger worshippers who objected to being blocked from the site. And the battles continue. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
jbg Posted October 14, 2014 Report Posted October 14, 2014 Looks like things are not getting any better between Palestinians and Israelis in East Jerusalem. Al-Aqsa mosque is in occupied East Jerusalem and Israeli police prevented dozens of Palestinian worshippers from entering the compound to perform dawn prayers a day after clashes between the two sides. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/10/palestinian-worshippers-barred-from-al-aqsa-2014101484255361802.html Many worshippers trying to enter the compound on Tuesday were turned away by police, who prevented all but those aged over 60 from entering the site, forcing many Palestinians to perform their dawn prayers in the street. Al Jazeera's Nisreen El-Shamayleh, reporting from Jerusalem, said the police used stun grenades to disperse many of the younger worshippers who objected to being blocked from the site. And the battles continue. Quote from Al Jezeera Al Jezeera article "Palestinians also feel their calls for Israeli control of the compound could eventually lead to the division of Islam’s holiest site among Palestinians and Jews. "This is why Palestinians feel so strongly about protecting the compound." The Al-Aqsa mosque is Islam's third holiest site, and the site is also sacred in Judaism. This is rich. The Arabs gave the Jews no access whatsoever to the Western Wall prior to the 1967 War. What goes around comes around. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Big Guy Posted October 14, 2014 Author Report Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) .... . What goes around comes around. I am surprised at this response. This is the equivalent of - An eye for an eye - rationalization. It suggests an equal and appropriate response for an action. This certainly was not the case when Israel invaded Gaza and killing 2,000 civilians for the death of 50 Israelis. That statement also suggests that those 2,000 innocent Gaza civilians should be revenged by the killing of 2,000 innocent Israeli citizens. This is an escalating, spiraling and deadly solution leading to self extermination. If you represent the majority Israeli point of view then I see no solution in the near future. Let the killing continue. Edited October 14, 2014 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
dre Posted October 14, 2014 Report Posted October 14, 2014 Anti-Zionism = Anti-Judaism What a stupid simplistic statement. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted October 14, 2014 Report Posted October 14, 2014 I am surprised at this response. This is the equivalent of - An eye for an eye - rationalization. Why on earth you be suprised at jbg making a statement like that? Seems like the typical kind of militant/zealous statement he would make... Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jbg Posted October 15, 2014 Report Posted October 15, 2014 Why on earth you be suprised at jbg making a statement like that? Seems like the typical kind of militant/zealous statement he would make...I am not militant and I am not callous. I am realistic. To answer Big Guy above (without going back out to requote) I am not optimistic there can be peace in the area. Not when one of hte partners wants Israel obliterated, at least as a Jewish state. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Bonam Posted October 15, 2014 Report Posted October 15, 2014 Looks like things are not getting any better between Palestinians and Israelis in East Jerusalem. You say these things as if they are some kind of surprise. Are you just for the first time learning about the Arab-Israeli conflict? You do realize things have been "not getting any better" for a long long time, right? Quote
Bonam Posted October 15, 2014 Report Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) What a stupid simplistic statement. Considering that Zionism is the belief that there should exist a sovereign Jewish state, and that living as minorities in the states of other peoples has resulted in approximately 95 out of every 100 Jews throughout history being exterminated, it's not a stupid statement at all. Zionism is a key aspect of the survival of what remains of the Jewish people. That being said, most people who "oppose Zionism" do it not because they are rabid Jew haters, but simply because they don't understand what they are really saying, buying into propaganda that Zionism is some evil ideology that's all about being mean to Palestinians. But those who understand that to not have a Jewish state is to condemn the Jewish people to extermination, and oppose Zionism in that context, most certainly fall within jbg's statement. Edited October 15, 2014 by Bonam Quote
marcus Posted October 15, 2014 Report Posted October 15, 2014 simply because they don't understand what they are really saying, Not sure who sounds more like a pompous douchebag: you or Rue. We are witnessing what Zionism is doing in order to achieve its romanticized vision. What Zionism advocates is stealing the land of another group of people and continuing to violate their human rights. A practice that is rightfully outlawed as according to international law. Law that mostly came to be, after the Jews went through a horrific period in our recent history. Now, some are advocating to break those laws despite being, one way or another, connected to the holocaust. It's a baffling reaction and an interesting study of the human species. It's wonderful seeing the increase of voices of Jews who, rightfully, reject Zionism and its ideals. The resistance of Jews against Zionism is the final straw. One day we will look back at Zionism the same way we look back at Apartheid South Africa. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
dre Posted October 15, 2014 Report Posted October 15, 2014 Considering that Zionism is the belief that there should exist a sovereign Jewish state, and that living as minorities in the states of other peoples has resulted in approximately 95 out of every 100 Jews throughout history being exterminated, it's not a stupid statement at all. Zionism is a key aspect of the survival of what remains of the Jewish people. That being said, most people who "oppose Zionism" do it not because they are rabid Jew haters, but simply because they don't understand what they are really saying, buying into propaganda that Zionism is some evil ideology that's all about being mean to Palestinians. But those who understand that to not have a Jewish state is to condemn the Jewish people to extermination, and oppose Zionism in that context, most certainly fall within jbg's statement. Nothing that you said in any way provides a logic basis for the claim that anti zionism = anti semitism. Not even close. And most of its not even true. The fact is with the exception of world war 2, the worlds jewish population has grown steadily. And it actually grew a lot faster before the creation of Israel then it has since. Between 1882 and 1939 the jewish population more than doubled... from about 7 million to about 17 million... without any Jewish state. Jews are not threatened by extermination... they can live free of persecution or "extermination" in most of the world. These kinds of claims are just the manifestation of a sort of "victim complex" that causes some to believe that Israel has the right to take land from other people. Zionism is a set of political goals, based on the belief that jews have the right to a specific piece of land that god promised them. Its a claim by a group of people on a piece of realestate, and disputing that claim does not in any way mean you dislike that group of people.... and many jews dispute this claim themselves. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Rue Posted October 15, 2014 Report Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Its interesting because Dre came on this forumclaiming to be a Jew, now claims to be an expert on Zionism and makes the most basic an false statements there is about Zionism and that is that its pretexted on the belief that God promised Jews Israel. Anyone who iz either Jewish or a Zionist would know why his comment could not have come from a Jew. It's as false as it gets. To start with the supposed covenant (agreement) between God and Jews never had anything to do with land. It had to do with form of worship. Anyone who understands the Torah knows the symbolic conversation between Jews and God was about maintaining a collective Jewish identity. It never directly referred to owning land-the collective of Israel was not a specific piece of land but a collective that would stay together and pray together. Borders and sovereignty was not a Biblical concept. It comes from international law many centuries later. Kingdoms in Bibkical days did not have borders-it had areas where people were administered by armies or tax systems but there were no definitive borders. That is colonial phenomena of the West. The symbolic story is that if the Jews chose to remain as a cohesive collective, God could better remember them better. This was an allegory, a poetic device or legend or story used to keep Jews together at a time when they faced extinction from hostile tribes. It never said Jews must remain in Israel or stay in Israel as a geographic area. It talked of staying together as a collective society. Zionism was never religious. It was about expressing political sufferage through a collective political identity. There was no reference to God in Zionism. It was created for the most part by atheist trade unionists, socialists and communists. The return to Israel was not based on religious belief but the belief that Jews were going back to their roots precisely so they would not go to a country they had no historic ties to. It was done based on the belief of returning to one's aboriginal roots or origins. This is precisely why Zionists told Churchill they would not and could not start a state in Uganda, etc,-their belief was that they had rights to living in Israel as they had continued to live their since the days they originated there. It was not a religious concept but a practical one of not going where they had no roots. Religious Zionism as a phenomena arose in the 60's in Brooklyn, New York with Rabbiah Meyer Kahan, one of the founders of the Jewish Defence League who eventualy would move to the West Bank and help start the Kache Party, a party that advocated violence and hatred towards Palestinians. Meyer Kahane and his followers were les than .ol percent of Israel's population. Most were arrested and they were condemned by the people of Israel and its government. Dre repeats a falsehood.A myth that has been restated by anti Israel propagandists. In fact the only people who still use it today are working for the Iranian government or the propaganda units of Hamas that still go to forum web sites and try repeat this mantra. As for the insults laid down on this thread by Marcus they speak for themselves. Once again Dre and Marcus show that a thread started to allegedly discuss the Palestinian Unity government is not about that but the usual anti Zionist thread that is repeated on this forum daily, The anti Zionist thread is the only political topic that always has a continuous loop presenting the same cycle of 12 to 15 false mantras about the creation of Israel and Zionism by the same thread producers. Its goal is to repeat the same falsehoods over and over again. The theory is if you repeat a lie long enough people will believe it. All it has done is drive people off this forum and reduce these threads to the same people responding with no free exchange of opinion. Anyone can go find out about Zionism. Relying on people with anti Israel and anti Jewish sentiments and who condone terrorism to lecture them about Zionism is absurd. Now let's clear one last thing up for the arm chair warriors at the script desk in Damascus and Tehran shall we... Zionism is the belief that Jews had to create a state collective to assure its survival. . No more, no less. To believe Jews should not be able to form a state collective to assure the survival of their identity, is necessarily anti Jewish. You won't hear Marcus or Dre come on this forum and ever say Muslims should not have Sharia law states. Ask yourself why and how they maintain that double standard for Muslims and Jews and claim it has nothing to do with Jews or how the concept that a Jew can not have a state is a Muslim concept, a concept based on the Islamic belief that Jews are inferior to Muslims and can not have what Muslims have, i.e., statehood. They won't talk of dhimmitude, khafir and how Jews or non Muslims are defined in Muslim states. They won't because they are not allowed. Their script writers do not allow them to criticize the interpretation of Islam they believe in hat defines all non Muslims as not being worthy of having equal state rights or for that matter legal rights. What they will not discuss is that both Hamas and the Palestinian Authority both have charters calling on a Sharia Law Muslim state for where Israel is now and how they will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state, ever, precisely because of their Muslim beliefs. They can avoid that reality and keep trying to piss on Israel, but the charters of the PA and Hamas are their for anyone to read as is their repeated references to Allah, Muhammed and the violent removal of ALL Jews from the Middle East. Anti Zionism Marcus says is not anti Jewish/ Right. Tell that to the innocent Jews world wide under attack by terrorists-their crime-being Jews. Tell that to the 900,000 Jew expelled from Arab countries-their crime-being Jewish. Tell that to the Jews being persecuted along with other non Jews in Muslim countries today. Tell that to Hamas and the Muslim terrorists who call for a world wide war to remove from the planet all Jews not just ZIonist Jews. Go on read their charter Marcus and try b.s. your way around the call to wipe out Jews world wide. Palestinian Unity my ass. There never has been. The only thing that has ever existed is a shared hatred of Israel and that has worn off. Look around Marcus. Your beloved brothers and sisters are wiping each other out. Your attempts to blame that on Israel don't seem to b working now do they,,, Zionism isn't about being anti Jewish right. Imagine if I were to be so stupid as to come on this forum and say to black people I am not against black people, I just don't think any of you should have the right to form a state. Someone undo all the African states starting with Liberia. Oh wait Ebola is doing that for us. how fortunate. what next. Oh yes I know, women should not see themselves as a collective but that is not anti women. Gays a collective? No no. Christians?. Well come on now the Vatican State no one really cares about. their soldiers wear funny costumes anyways. As for Saudi Arabia and Mecca, that's different you know...Muslims can have states. We are only talking bout Jooz. Edited October 15, 2014 by Rue Quote
Big Guy Posted October 15, 2014 Author Report Posted October 15, 2014 You say these things as if they are some kind of surprise. Are you just for the first time learning about the Arab-Israeli conflict? You do realize things have been "not getting any better" for a long long time, right? Yes I do and thank you for asking. Since I started this thread on the new united Palestinian government I felt that I should also give updates. If you are questioning if I try to keep up to date of what is going on the ground then yes - I do try to keep up to date. If it is a topic that makes people uncomfortable then I suggest posters avoid it like I do with topics and threads that make me uncomfortable. One of the assets of an anonymous electronic bulletin board is that posters cannot be shouted down, intimidated or piled on. Each individual has his/her say even if it is a minority opinion and unpopular with some others. Obviously there are many opposing views on this issue and airing a position usually makes a person feel better. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Rue Posted October 16, 2014 Report Posted October 16, 2014 Big Guy's latest response means what-that he takes a thread that was supposed to discuss the Palestinian Unity government, and thinks it appropriate to change the topic with issues that deal with anti Israel opinions. Big Guy demonstrates the exact exercise I challenge. He changed the topic on the thread, and admits it and thinks it appropriate. He calls it "up-dating". On some forums they would call it hijacking a post, going off topic, or trolling depending on the forum. You want to piss on Israel Big Guy as you state, because expressing such opinions makes you feel better, keep using the forum as a therapy tool, and start yet another piss on Israel thread. Start off with the proper heading,"Israel is poo poo". Your attempt to continue avoiding discussing the alleged unity government and trying to defocus and steer it to anti Israel insults is stale. You have nothing to say about the unity government get off this thread. Quote
Big Guy Posted October 16, 2014 Author Report Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) Big Guy's latest response means what-that he takes a thread that was supposed to discuss the Palestinian Unity government, and thinks it appropriate to change the topic with issues that deal with anti Israel opinions. Big Guy demonstrates the exact exercise I challenge. He changed the topic on the thread, and admits it and thinks it appropriate. He calls it "up-dating". On some forums they would call it hijacking a post, going off topic, or trolling depending on the forum. You want to piss on Israel Big Guy as you state, because expressing such opinions makes you feel better, keep using the forum as a therapy tool, and start yet another piss on Israel thread. Start off with the proper heading,"Israel is poo poo". Your attempt to continue avoiding discussing the alleged unity government and trying to defocus and steer it to anti Israel insults is stale. You have nothing to say about the unity government get off this thread. I just noticed that this last reply was less than a thousand words so I took the time to read it. Interesting; Big Guy changes the direction of his own OP because he is anti Israel. Big Guy hijacks threads, goes off topic and does trolling. Big Guy pisses on Israel and the heading for this thread should be "Israel is poo poo". See, I do get it!!! Big Guy should get off this thread. I think Big Guy should get his head examined if he actually attempted to engage Rue in any civil discourse on anything. Big Guy does not need to get his head examined. Now back to the topic; The Palestinian unity government held its first meeting yesterday, convening in Gaza to focus on the plan to rebuild the Strip after the destruction caused by the 50-day war with Israel. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.620014 Pressure from the USA and the UN to allow the rebuilding of Gaza forced Israel to allow Palestinian Prime Minister Rami Hamdallah and other Palestinian ministers from the West Bank to enter Gaza. “The challenges facing us are very large, mainly the destruction in Gaza and the difficult situation that Gaza residents have been put in,” Hamdallah said. “We sincerely want the government to succeed in its objective, and we are working to implement the reconciliation agreement, which includes the reconstruction of Gaza, a prisoner release and a lifting of the siege.” That $5.4 billion pledged by different nations (including the USA) might go a long way towards that goal. Glad to see some progress in that part of the world. Edited October 16, 2014 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Rue Posted October 19, 2014 Report Posted October 19, 2014 Its in Israel's best interest to have the Gaza rebuilt. It was not force by the UN or the US. This notion the UN could force Israel to do anything. This is the same UN that abandon Jews in Palestine, abandon the Jews of the holocaust, created a definition of Palestinian refugee that does not apply to any other refugee in the world and has allowed its organization to become blatantly partisan in its support of Hamas, Fatah, and other Arab Muslim fundamentalist terrorist groups. The UN force Israel? Is this the same UN that sat back and allowed genocides in Sudan, Baifra, Rwanda, Malawi, Chad, Niger,Mali, Liberia, Senegal, Ivory Coast? Right, this is the same UN that has been so effective in its sanctions with Iran and in its role in preventing civil wars in Lebanon and Syria. Right. That UN. As for the US, why would it need to force Israel to allow the Gaza to rebuilt? Oh do explain why the US needed to pressure Israel and how. Can't wait. Quote
marcus Posted October 19, 2014 Report Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) Its in Israel's best interest to have the Gaza rebuilt. So they can have brand new targets when they unleash their American funded military every 2 years? Israel will be forced to change their tactics because the world can no longer sit idle while Israel continues with their human rights violations and arrogance. Not only are the Palestinians gaining more legitimacy in the United Nations and will be able to use international courts to hold Israel accountable, but countries around the world are speaking out and are accepting Palestine as a state, which we have seen happen more recently in Sweden and a symbolic, but powerful message from the UK parliament. The dream of Greater Israel is over. Zionism does not have a place in a world where people respect human rights and oppose racism. Edited October 19, 2014 by marcus Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
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