Ferguson unrest

[TimG]

I suppose my point is,. or question, is how can it be intentional when it is ingrained and learned from a very young age?

Intentional means they intended to be racist. Believing clearly racist ideas to be true does not change the intent (calling some a n* is racist whether you were taught it was normal or not).

The distinction between intent shows up in different situations. i.e. an employer had to choose one of two equal candidates for an office job and goes with the one that wore a suit to the interview. There is no intent to be racist because proper attire for a job interview is an appropriate criteria but the non-suit wearing candidate could claim racism because the two candidates were equal on paper. If that same interviewer went with the white candidate because of stereotypes of blacks then that would be racism but outwardly there is no way to distinguish between the two cases.

That said, there are many ideas where there is no social consensus on whether they are racist or not. If there is no social consensus then they can't be considered racism - they are just opinions.

Edited December 24, 2014 by TimG

[Smallc]

But then there was an original intention. The word nigger means nothing without meaning behind it.

[guyser]

I sure as hell may regret going down this road...

Intentional means they intended to be racist.

Well...yea, I know that, intentional means it was intended.

Believing clearly racist ideas to be true does not change the intent (calling some a n* is racist whether you were taught it was normal or not).

Not to a child it isnt.

That said, there are many ideas where there is no social consensus on whether they are racist or not. If there is no social consensus then they can't be considered racism - they are just opinions.

Huh?

[Black Dog]

Without intent there can't be racism. Racism is an intentional attack.

That's ridiculous.

[Argus]

Look, go read up on privilege. I'm sick of trying to educate you.

What I think you mean is you're frustrated that your attempt at convincing someone who does not share your ideological beliefs that you are correct is not working.

[Argus]

Speaking for myself, I'm still arguing that police methods are too forceful and violent resulting in unnecessary death and suffering and they're getting worse because of the general freak-out and security-ism that's followed 9/11. First things first there needs to be a serious attitude adjustment starting with law-makers, senior bureaucrats and enforcement institutions who need to wind down their post-9/11 fear and angst.

Police on the street need way more training in how to assess situations and how to de-escalate and de-fuse them before resorting to force which could benefit greatly from the development and employment of a wider range of non-lethal methods and tools. Restraining/immobilizing technology involving the use of net-guns, fast setting foam, anaesthetic dart guns (TTC streetcar shooting comes to mind), better energy conducting devices etc. Simply waiting out certain situations as opposed to going in guns blazing would do wonders. Many police should effectively be trained as mental-health/illness first responders with a significant amount of psychiatric training. Instead we're equipping and encouraging them to react like SWAT teams.

As for defusing and de-escalating the tensions causing society to come unhinged to the point it's starting to resemble the classic overcrowded rat cage...I guess that's a different issue, but I bet if we could address it we'd have a lot less cops-gone-wild videos showing up on you-tube.

This may be the first post you've ever made that I completely agree with.

[Smallc]

That's ridiculous.

No, it's not ridiculous. Racism is one of those things that requires malice. Without it....

[TimG]

Not to a child it isnt.

What is racist and what is not is a social convention. It is not an absolute truth. If someone is raised to learn ideas that violate accepted conventions then it is racism even if they don't "know better".

The debate is really about what falls into this ill-defined "social convention". People one side would like to see almost anything that upsets a minority be classed as racism. People on the other side think that the definition should be limited to those things which are intentionally discriminatory. When there is no consensus on a point the only reasonable option is to "agree to disagree".

Edited December 24, 2014 by TimG

[cybercoma]

But then there was an original intention. The word nigger means nothing without meaning behind it.

So you're in a thread about racism, denying that racism exists, when you don't even know what racism is. After all of this time, you can't be bothered to actually understand what it is you're arguing about. That's sad.

[cybercoma]

No, it's not ridiculous. Racism is one of those things that requires malice. Without it....

Seriously, do you have any bloody clue after all of these pages what institutional and systemic racism even are!? Bonam's sitting here criticizing people for being condescending, but you deserve as much condescension as anyone can muster for posting crap like this. You're like a movie critic telling people not to go see a film because it's crap, yet you've never seen the thing.

[Smallc]

I don't believe in it. That's kind of been the entire point here.

[cybercoma]

I don't believe in it. That's kind of been the entire point here.

Exactly. So you deserve the same amount of ridicule that we give to people who think the earth is 6000 years old.

[WestCoastRunner]

What is racist and what is not is a social convention. It is not an absolute truth. If someone is raised to learn ideas that violate accepted conventions then it is racism even if they don't "know better".

The debate is really about what falls into this ill-defined "social convention". People one side would like to see almost anything that upsets a minority be classed as racism. People on the other side think that the definition should be limited to those things which are intentionally discriminatory. When there is no consensus on a point the only reasonable option is to "agree to disagree".

All I see here is a great spin on words.

[cybercoma]

It's pretty simple, SmallC. You look like an idiot when as a white man, you tell black people racism doesn't exist. You look like an idiot when as a man, you tell women that sexism doesn't exist. You look like an idiot, when as a straight person, you tell homosexuals that there's no systemic barriers for them. You look like an idiot when as an able-bodied person you tell disabled people that you don't believe their disabilities create any barriers for them. That's kind of the entire point.

It's called privilege. You don't need to believe in it. You've done a fantastic job of demonstrating it.

[Smallc]

Exactly. So you deserve the same amount of ridicule that we give to people who think the earth is 6000 years old.

Sure if you want to make ridiculous comparisons it's the same.

[cybercoma]

Sure if you want to make ridiculous comparisons it's the same.

The only thing that's ridiculous is a white person saying they don't believe in racism.

[Smallc]

It's pretty simple, SmallC. You look like an idiot when as a white man, you tell black people racism doesn't exist. You look like an idiot when as a man, you tell women that sexism doesn't exist. You look like an idiot, when as a straight person, you tell homosexuals that there's no systemic barriers for them. You look like an idiot when as an able-bodied person you tell disabled people that you don't believe their disabilities create any barriers for them. That's kind of the entire point.

It's called privilege. You don't need to believe in it. You've done a fantastic job of demonstrating it.

If a woman thinks that she isn't being abused, but you in fact observe the abuse, is her opinion more qualified?

[Smallc]

The only thing that's ridiculous is a white person saying they don't believe in racism.

I didn't say that. You've been insulting, dishonest, condescending, and generally rude. you're not having a discussion anymore.

[Smallc]

The point would be that the quote is from Jesse Jackson.

That's pretty surprising.

[WestCoastRunner]

If a woman thinks that she isn't being abused, but you in fact observe the abuse, is her opinion more qualified?

Um, no, because she suffers from 'battered abuse syndrome'. Look it up. Not sure what this has to do with this thread.

Edited December 24, 2014 by WestCoastRunner

[Smallc]

Um, no, because she suffers from 'battered abuse syndrome'. Look it up. Not sure what this has to do with this thread.

I know what she suffers from. When people are used to racism, they start to look for it in places where it doesn't exist. There's even a name for it, but I can't recall it at the moment.

[WestCoastRunner]

When people are used to racism, they start to look for it in places where it doesn't exist. There's even a name for it, but I can't recall it at the moment.

They start to look for it where it doesn't exist?

What about the African American parents who experience great anxiety while their children are out and about on the streets and have no form of relief until they return home.

I suppose the kids are out looking for racism....

[Smallc]

What are they doing out on the streets? That's always been a thin of mine too - people are always a victim of societal neglect, and never the neglect of those who should be directly involved in their lives.

[Black Dog]

No, it's not ridiculous. Racism is one of those things that requires malice. Without it....

Without malice, a racist act is still racist.

Consider this: Montreal theatre slammed for blackface portrayal of Subban

A Montreal theatre is under fire for using a white actor to portray Canadiens’ defenceman P.K. Subban in a year-end play.

The Theatre du Rideau Vert’s annual Review and Corrected show features a hockey skit performed by two actors, one of which is lathered up in black face paint to portray the black NHLer.

According to your criterea, this isn't racist because there was no malice involved. Nevermind that blackface is loaded with racist connotatiosn and has historically been used exclusively as a tool for furtehring racial sterotyping and discrimination. All of that context goes out the window for you because, oh well, they didn't mean anything by it.

Here's another.

In her mind, Leigh Anne Tuohy, aka “The Blind Side woman,” thought she did a very good thing when she took to Facebook to share a photo of herself with two Black teenagers who were otherwise minding their business before she interfered in their affairs. Yes, ultimately Tuohy proved herself to be generous, but in telling the full story exposed herself to be not as evolved as she thinks she is.

In her Facebook post, Tuohy writes:

We see what we want! It’s the gospel truth! These two were literally huddled over in a corner table nose to nose and the person with me said “I bet they are up to no good” well you know me… I walked over, told them to scoot over. After 10 seconds of dead silence I said so whats happening at this table? I get nothing.. I then explained it was my store and they should spill it… They showed me their phones and they were texting friends trying to scrape up $3.00 each for the high school basketball game! Well they left with smiles, money for popcorn and bus fare. We gave to STOP judging people and assuming and pigeon holing people! Don’t judge a book by its cover or however you’d like to express the sentiment! Accept others and stoping seeing what you want to see!!!

Aw isn't that nice white lady nice? Nevermind that the only reason she went over was the assumption by her (explicitly racist) friend that the two black kids were up to no good, so Nice White Lady decides to invade their privacy and grill them about their activities without any regard for whether they appreciated her sticking her face into their business, which, again, they were minding. Then she has the nerve to give them money (because black kids would obviously be poor) then go on social media and sermonize about "not judging a book by it's cover." No spite or malice behind what she did: just unthinking unconcious racism.

[Black Dog]

I know what she suffers from. When people are used to racism, they start to look for it in places where it doesn't exist. There's even a name for it, but I can't recall it at the moment.

I thought racism was so rare as to be over. Now it's so commonplace people get used to it. Huh.