Sunday Shopping: An Idea Whose Time Is Past

[maplesyrup]

N.S. woman crusades against Sunday shopping

Where are all you so-called Christian business people on this issue, eh?

We have had a good kick at the can with Sunday shopping. Businesses have tried to maximize their returns by using their space every minute of every waking day. Guess what. Life went on before Sunday shopping, life is going on now with Sunday shopping, and life will continue to go with the demise of Sunday shopping.

I am sure that all the proponents of Sunday shopping just like the proponents of low minimum wages, do not work on Sundays or collect minimum wages. They jsat want what's good for others, eh!

Hypocrites is what they are, plain and simple. :angry:

[playfullfellow]

I seem to work Sundays a lot, not because it is mandatory in our company but rather because that is when things seem to break down all the time. We get plenty of calls in regards to broken stoves, fridges and furnaces. At least with a few businesses open, I can generaly get the parts I need to get people heat again if it is not too late in the day. I also find it convinient that since I work 6 days a week, I can do some shopping on my supposed day off. I do not however believe in making people work on Sundays if it interferes with their religious rights. There should be no reprisals if people do not want to work, if management wants the store open, then get in there and work along side the staff. Aside from that, if a store wants to be open on Sunday, let them.

[JWayne625]

New Brunswick has basically gone to 7 day shopping and my wife works in retail as a Head Cashier. She tells me that the store in fact makes less profit now than it did when there was 6 day shopping, simply because now the costs have gone up, in staffing, and electrical costs. Those that used to shop through the week now shop on Sunday, but sales have dropped on the other days to compensate. When are these giant retailers going to figure out that there is only so much money for people to spend? What it has accomplished is it has put out of business the small Mom & Pop corner stores, and replaced them with franchized Convenience stores, that are corporate owned.

When Sunday shopping ws instituted here I asked City Council about increasing transit service on Sunday's to compliment the stores being open, and I was told that the realiity was that they could not afford to put the buses on even though it was them that applied to the Province for permission to grant Sunday Shopping. As a consequence, the employees who traditionally work for minimum wages are now forced to spend half or more of their wages, on taxi fares to get to and from work. Some deal that is!

The likelihood is that the people who are demanding Sunday shopping are the very people who work Mon. to Fri., and have every evening and Saturday to do their shopping, but are too lazy or too selfish to allow families to have a day off together.

I was just thinking back to a time when stores were open Thursday, and Friday evenings only, and Saturday from 9:00am to 1:00pm, the rest of the week they closed at 5:30pm, and there was no such thing as Sunday shopping except for the Pharmacy, and some corner stores. Pharmacies did not sell even milk and bread. If you needed a loaf of bread you had to walk sometimes fair distances to find a corner store that was open. My God, what would these people have done, when they have to have stores open 7 days per week?

[RB]

I don't have the stats but I am incline to believe that Sunday shopping actually contribute to the economy.

Where are all you so-called Christian business people on this issue, eh?

I am not a religious person and I don't want to be forced into practising to rest on Sunday plus I don't want some religious fanatics set rules of how I should or should not operate. This religion of rest is really imposing on my time. I rather spend my time wisely perhaps to shop.

Well what about my rights if I am not a Christian?

[August1991]

She tells me that the store in fact makes less profit now than it did when there was 6 day shopping, simply because now the costs have gone up, in staffing, and electrical costs.

If it were more profitable to open only for 6 days, then successful stores would do that.

What it has accomplished is it has put out of business the small Mom & Pop corner stores, and replaced them with franchized Convenience stores, that are corporate owned.

If the Mom & Pop stores are as good as you imply they are, then they would be profitable. It appears the corporate stores are more profitable because they somehow satisfy customers better.

I don't have the stats but I am incline to believe that Sunday shopping actually contribute to the economy.

You would find few if any stats that would show that clearly. Rather, the gain is from giving people the choice to do something they previously could not. It is like the gain of having a cell phone.

[maplesyrup]

I am sure you will all be interested in the next International BUY NOTHING DAY coming up in November.

This is one event I would to see turned into a week's duration.

[August1991]

I am sure you will all be interested in the next International BUY NOTHING DAY coming up in November.

Perfectly legitimate as long as it's voluntary.

An afternoon in a park often brings much greater pleasure than shopping for the latest doodad. Unfortunately, an afternoon in a park is not included in economic statistics the same way our purchases of doodads are.

BTW, I suspect the CAW would not want the BUY NOTHING DAY to include purchases of new cars.

[daniel]

I am sure you will all be interested in the next International BUY NOTHING DAY coming up in November.

Perfectly legitimate as long as it's voluntary.

An afternoon in a park often brings much greater pleasure than shopping for the latest doodad. Unfortunately, an afternoon in a park is not included in economic statistics the same way our purchases of doodads are.

BTW, I suspect the CAW would not want the BUY NOTHING DAY to include purchases of new cars.

I can't see any big ticket items falling into this category. The purchase is actually drawn out in several days or weeks.

If you walk into a car dealership today to do some serious shopping, you don't have to leave with the car keys in your pocket.

Does buy nothing mean you are not allowed to put down a deposit?

The actual purchase is done after delivery is made and that is negotiated when the dealer telephones you to say the car has arrived when will you drop in with the certified cheque?

The date of that is also negotiable.

[kimmy]

I can't see any big ticket items falling into this category.  The purchase is actually drawn out in several days or weeks.

If you walk into a car dealership today to do some serious shopping, you don't have to leave with the car keys in your pocket.

Does buy nothing mean you are not allowed to put down a deposit?

The actual purchase is done after delivery is made and that is negotiated when the dealer telephones you to say the car has arrived when will you drop in with the certified cheque?

The date of that is also negotiable.

If you're getting hung up on details about whether purchases of major items are against the rules of Buy Nothing Day, stop worrying... there are no rules, and the penalty for non-compliance is ... nothing!

If you're trying to get around the principle of Buy Nothing by scheduling payments and shipping and possession dates to land on other days, then you've missed the point. It's not an exercise in planning your purchases to fall on the day before or the day after. It's a statement against commercialization. Do you really need a new car or toys to make you happy? Maybe instead of buying your sweetie a new piece of jewelry, a rose or a poem would be more meaningful. Instead of buying the kids a video game, take them hiking. People often can't see the forest through the trees.

Personally, I suspect that Maplesyrup would be an outstanding spokesman for Buy Nothing Day! Most days are probably Buy Nothing Day for syrup. I bet that when he opens his wallet, moths fly out.

-kimmy

[JWayne625]

Who mentioned religion? I simply called it a Days of Rest Act, which is what is was called in New Brunswick. That day was meant to give families a common day to spend together doing whatever they choose. If that something happens to be going to church, so be it, but at least the family would be able to plan a common day to sit down together to share a meal and conversation. Too often today we have children virtually bringing themselves up, they start hanging with disreputable friends and suddenly junior is summoned to court and Mom and Dad can't figure out what went wrong, when the fact is they had no time to spend with their kids to know who they were hanging with or what they were up to.

Perfectly legitimate as long as it's voluntary.

The problem is that in many cases it is not entirely voluntary. For instance in New Brunswick the government made it legal for employees to simply give their employer 2 weeks notice that they were exercising their option not work on Sundays, and supposedly not have to. I have a friend who's wife had been working for one of the major retailers at the time, and a staff meeting was called and the employees were told that under the legislation they were allowed to opt out of working on Sundays, however if any chose to exercise that option new employees would be hired to work those Sunday hours, and these new employees would also be offered additional hours throughout the week, and those hours would be those of current employees who opted not to work on Sundays. Is that voluntary? I don't think so.

Another aspect of this is that many mall management companies are writing it into their leases that merchants are required to be open on Sundays. That too is hardly what I would call voluntary.

If it were more profitable to open only for 6 days, then successful stores would do that.

Not if their competitor across the street is opening on Sundays in an attempt to gain additional market share. What retailer can afford to give up market share? None, that's who so they open whether it is profitable or not. A survey was conducted in our city with retailers and most said that it was not profitable to be open on Sundays. Many said that they already work 6 days per week and they are tired, and need that day to catch up on rest and paperwork, and many stated thae fact that if they didn't open they would lose market share, especially if their competitor chose to be open. Families only have so much disposable income, and just because stores started opening on Sundays, that amount does not magically grow. If Sunday shopping is such a great thing maybe it's time that we open the whole economy to Sunday shopping incuding government offices, banks, schools, lawyer's offices, and all other enterprises that presently enjoy Monday to Friday work-weeks. I can guarantee you that all of these people who work in Mon. to Fri. mode will be quickly lobbying to get back to working Mon. to Fri. I suspect that these are the very people who are presently can't seem to find time to shop evenings and Saturday.

If the Mom & Pop stores are as good as you imply they are, then they would be profitable. It appears the corporate stores are more profitable because they somehow satisfy customers better.

What Mom & Pop store do you know that can buy from the wholesaler at the same prices as their competitors, like Sobey's or Superstore. In the Maritimes for instance all of the grovcery wholesalers are owned by either Sobeys, or Superstore, consequently they extend to their own retailers preferential pricing schemes. Consequently large retailers are able to sell below what it costs a small retailer to buy wholesale. That is why small corner stores are going out of business, and now that they are gone the prices are starting to escalate at alarming rates at these large retailers. Why not they now have no competition.

[August1991]

A survey was conducted in our city with retailers and most said that it was not profitable to be open on Sundays.

I am inclined to trust more what people do in fact rather than what they say. Actions speak louder than words.

these new employees would also be offered additional hours throughout the week, and those hours would be those of current employees who opted not to work on Sundays. Is that voluntary? I don't think so.

That sounds voluntary to me. No gun was involved nor other form of coercion. The previous regime was definitely not voluntary. It required a law and police enforcement.

Not if their competitor across the street is opening on Sundays in an attempt to gain additional market share. What retailer can afford to give up market share?

You call it "market share" but I call it satisfying what the customer wants - providing a better service and/or at a lower cost. (What a concept!)

That is why small corner stores are going out of business, and now that they are gone the prices are starting to escalate at alarming rates at these large retailers.

Then I guess it would be profitable now to set up a small corner store.

-----

Look JWayne, if you and I decide to have an argument on this forum at 3 am, should MapleSyrup have the right to stop us?

More specifically, if a store discovers a way to use lasers and computers so that cashiers are no longer necessary, should the current cashiers have the right to forbid this innovation?

[maplesyrup]

Switzerland has one of the most successful economies in the world and they don't allow Sunday shopping, so why should Canada?

All Sunday shopping will result in is more polution and more workers being abused and forced to work on their Sabbath. Perhaps if we only allowed public transportation and emergency vehicles on the public roads, and workers were compensated with shift premiums, and the legislated option not to have to work if they choose to spend the time with their families, then maybe OK we could explore it. In the meantime, until these conditions come about, let's close Sunday down to the greedy pigs, er, capitalists.

[August1991]

Switzerland has one of the most successful economies in the world and they don't allow Sunday shopping, so why should Canada?

MapleSyrup, Switzerland is one of the most snobbish places on earth. Switzerland is like a plane's First Class cabin, a place where the rich go to insulate themselves from the hoi-polloi.

Now, if you had chosen Germany as an example, it would have made some sense....

[maplesyrup]

August1991.....actually Canada and Switzerland are quite similar in a lot of ways. Both are picturesque countries with majestic mountains piercing the clouds. Both have more than one official language, both have a highly educated, well trained work force, both have good pharmaceutical industries, great skiing, and great tourism industries, and both have a tendency towards neutrality.

[playfullfellow]

All Sunday shopping will result in is more polution and more workers being abused and forced to work on their Sabbath. Perhaps if we only allowed public transportation and emergency vehicles on the public roads, and workers were compensated with shift premiums, and the legislated option not to have to work if they choose to spend the time with their families, then maybe OK we could explore it

Sorry MS, Denmark tried something like this in 1975 and it went over like a lwad balloon. The only stores open on Sunday were bakeries but they are open almost everyday except Christmas eve. I think it only lasted about 3 months or so. The only people on the roads were emergency vehicles and people on bicycles. Of course Denmark has a lot of bikes but it would be almost impossible to apply here because of the distances we have here. If people want to shop, let them, if people want to stay at home, they will. If it is not financially feasible, a store wont be open on Sundays.

[August1991]

MapleSyrup: August1991.....actually Canada and Switzerland are quite similar in a lot of ways.

Both are smug.

Both are picturesque countries with majestic mountains piercing the clouds. Both have more than one official language, both have a highly educated, well trained work force, both have good pharmaceutical industries, great skiing, and great tourism industries, and both have a tendency towards neutrality.

Turkey also has mountains. Sri Lanka has more than one official language. Cuba claims to have educated people. Moldovia has many veterinarians. Bulgaria has a developed pharmaceutical industry. People ski in Nepal. The Dominican Republic has tourist spots. Yugoslavia was famous for its neutrality.

MS, what's your point?

[maplesyrup]

My point is life can exist quite harmonously without Sunday shopping - we existed before without it, and we will continue to exist if it were abolished again.

Switzerland is a good example of a very successful economy with NO SUNDAY SHOPPING. So if the Swiss are able to survive so can Canadians.

[playfullfellow]

Switzerland also has a mandatory stint in the military and makes it mandatory that all reservists, that includes all males up to the age of 40 or so, have a loaded weapon in their homes. Glad to see you are starting to swing more to the right MS. Also don't forget that Switzerland is a tax haven for the rich, allows criminals to keep vast amounts of money in their banks unchecked.

[maplesyrup]

Canada's economy could easily survive a no Sunday shopping policy across our land. It actually might even be good for business as employees would end up being more relaxed resulting in more productivity when they are at work.

[playfullfellow]

Personally I couldn't care less if there was Sunday shopping or not. I like to be able to get parts to fix peoples furnaces or stoves on Sundays if need be. But that is about the extent of my Sunday shopping. I don't know if stopping Sunda shopping would help people relax and be more productive. Due to labour laws, at least in Alberta, in regards to part time and full time hours, most retail people work less than 35 hours per week so companies do not have to pay benefits of a full time employee. Most places offer rotational weekend shifts so people don't work every weekend or weekend shifts are offered to students. If you want to change Sunday shopping, you have to convince the consumers first that they need to stay home, once you do that, retailers will follow suit because it will not be profitable to stay open on Sunday.

[Cartman]

I think for many businesses, the issue is not about Sunday profits per se, it is about making sure that you do not give your customers a reason to try out your competitors. IME, Sundays were always the worst retail day of the week. Also, many stores remain open because of agreements they make with the Malls in which they operate.

[August1991]

What is wrong with "letting the market decide"? People to this forum profess to believe in democracy. Well, let democracy decide the issue. Not in a referendum as we just saw in Nova Scotia, but in the ordinary dealings of ordinary Canadians.

If no Sunday shopping is a good thing, then it won't exist. If it is a good thing, then it will. And it may be that some people don't like it and others do. Some may like to work on Sunday and have a day free elsewhere.

Why this need for conformity? Why the need for a government regulation to impose it?

And why do people seem to trust more in a choice made by referendum rather than in a choice made in the marketplace?

[JWayne625]

And why do people seem to trust more in a choice made by referendum rather than in a choice made in the marketplace?

Simply because the choice made by referendum is binding on everyone, hence a level playing field. If the marketplace is left to decide there ceases to be a choice anymore, if your competitor across the street opens on Sundays, you have to follow suit or lose market share. Do you really think that most stores are open on Sundays because it adds to their profits? In New Brunswick for example many smaller retailers have already spoken to the issue including owner's of Canadian Tire franchises. These owner/operators have stated that their choice to remain closed on Sundays, but if WalMart, Zellers and Sears open their doors on Sundays they simply have no choice, either open or sacrifice market share to their competitors. They simply cannot afford to give up market share, even if Sunday openings increases their costs of doing business.

My wife works in retail grocery as a Front End Manager (Head Cashier) she and the store manager also maintain that their preference is to remain closed on Sundays, but when Sobeys and Superstore open their doors on Sunday there is absolutely no choice but to open as well. The store still brings in virtually the same receipts, but since operating cost have gone up through wages, payroll taxes, and increased electricity expenses, the profits decline. Why? Because the people that shop on Sundays no longer shop on Saturday, Monday or Tuesday.

Nova Scotia's decision at least allows the people to choose to live a more family friendly lifestyle, instead of having commercialism shoved at them 7 days per week. This decision still allows people the ability to pick up necessities like prescriptions, and milk and bread purchases, as well as allowing small tourist destinations the right to open some tourist specialty shops on both Sundays and other Holidays. Large retail corporations given their druther's would have no competion at all, because they would be open 24/7.

[Cartman]

If no Sunday shopping is a good thing, then it won't exist. If it is a good thing, then it will.

But bad things do exist even within markets. Markets are not always rational. At times, they contract greatly and people suffer. Sometimes, the state must close stock markets or risk a collapse (rare, but it does happen). Anti-trust exists for a reason. In any case, I think the argument here is that competition was excessive for many and they felt compelled to open even if it was not very profitable.

Personally, I was very shocked that the vote took place and turned out the way it did.