Ontario has voted 'no' to accrediting Trinity University Law P

Bryan · April 25, 2014

That's not how the legal system works. You can't base your legal argument on an external system and expect that system to prescribe the ruling to the courts, be it the bible or Sharia law.

Exactly. You seem to be determined to find something to argue about when there's no disagreement.

Michael Hardner · April 25, 2014

Exactly. You seem to be determined to find something to argue about when there's no disagreement.

There is, as I pointed out, and if you re-read my post you will get it.

Argus · April 25, 2014

The policies at this university will be contrary to public policy in Ontario. In Ontario, gay marriage is embraced and common-law relationships are recognized.

That's not up to Ontario's law society to decide. The only thing of consequence they need concern themselves with should be whether the graduates of this program will have sufficient legal training to qualify as a lawyer in Canada. When Trinity graduates lawyers on what basis will they be able to tell those lawyers they cannot practice in Ontario? Because they're not gay friendly? I don't think that's a sufficient reason.

Wilber · April 25, 2014

That's not up to Ontario's law society to decide. The only thing of consequence they need concern themselves with should be whether the graduates of this program will have sufficient legal training to qualify as a lawyer in Canada. When Trinity graduates lawyers on what basis will they be able to tell those lawyers they cannot practice in Ontario? Because they're not gay friendly? I don't think that's a sufficient reason.

I agree. While I would never send a kid to a school like Trinity, when did lawyers personal beliefs have anything to do with their ability to practice law? Lawyers defend pedifiles, war criminals, racists and all kinds of other low life scumbags without being tarred with the same brush. No one ever asks them what their religious beliefs are. Law societies should concern themselves with the practice of law, not political correctness. The BC society got it right. Ontario's didn't, they have made themselves into social activists and abused their power.

WestCoastRunner · April 25, 2014

The BC society got it right. Ontario's didn't, they have made themselves into social activists and abused their power.

Looks like the BC society will be looking at their decision again.

Criminal lawyer Michael Mulligan collected 1,303 signatures on a petition that will force a special general meeting of the society’s whole membership within 60 days to revisit the issue.

He collected double the signatures that were required to force a general meeting.

On another note regarding Ontario's decision:

"Their ruling could also create turmoil on a national scale. Some lawyers have voiced concerns that having one provincial law society deny accreditation when other provincial societies have granted it could threaten a new national mobility regime that allows lawyers licensed in one province to practise across Canada. The system took more than a decade to establish, and leaders of the Law Society of Alberta have warned that a decision such as the LSUC’s could pose a “direct threat” to mobility agreements."

It will be interesting to see what NS decides today but I'm guessing they will vote the same as the Upper Canada Law Society.

Wilber · April 25, 2014

Looks like the BC society will be looking at their decision again.

Criminal lawyer Michael Mulligan collected 1,303 signatures on a petition that will force a special general meeting of the society’s whole membership within 60 days to revisit the issue.

He collected double the signatures that were required to force a general meeting.

On another note regarding Ontario's decision:

"Their ruling could also create turmoil on a national scale. Some lawyers have voiced concerns that having one provincial law society deny accreditation when other provincial societies have granted it could threaten a new national mobility regime that allows lawyers licensed in one province to practise across Canada. The system took more than a decade to establish, and leaders of the Law Society of Alberta have warned that a decision such as the LSUC’s could pose a “direct threat” to mobility agreements."

It will be interesting to see what NS decides today but I'm guessing they will vote the same as the Upper Canada Law Society.

It will be interesting if the Law Societies lose when this goes to the SC because that is where it will probably wind up. This would seem an ideal case for the highest court.

Tell me, would you be happy if you were barred from your occupation because of personal beliefs that had nothing to do with your ability to do your job? Trinity should be judged on the quality of its program and nothing else. Individual employers can decide whether they want to hire its graduates.

On Guard for Thee · April 25, 2014

The flip side of the coin I can see is what if I'm gay, I've got the money, and I want to study at Trinity. Can't do it unless I'm willing to lie about who I am. Sounds like I'm being barred from my occupation because of my beliefs. I also agree that they can do whatever they wish in their own sandbox, but Ontario does recognize same sex marriages so I see the potential for conflict.

Michael Hardner · April 25, 2014

The flip side of the coin I can see is what if I'm gay, I've got the money, and I want to study at Trinity. Can't do it unless I'm willing to lie about who I am. Sounds like I'm being barred from my occupation because of my beliefs. I also agree that they can do whatever they wish in their own sandbox, but Ontario does recognize same sex marriages so I see the potential for conflict.

There is still a right to discriminate, and as such the Ontario Law Society is discriminating against people who are acting on their legal rights. It seems that this prohibition has been driven by a certain flavour of outrage that isn't really consistent. At least as far as I can see.

If somebody went to a religious university or high school that barred women from being priests, or barred people who are openly in same-sex relationships, and went to law school elsewhere... then what ?

Honestly, any lawyer who can do the mental backflips required to keep all this religious stuff in their head is probably good enough to practice law in Ontario.

Argus · April 25, 2014

The flip side of the coin I can see is what if I'm gay, I've got the money, and I want to study at Trinity.

And I'm sure there are so many gay people who are crying tonight because they can't go to Trinity... :rolleyes:

Bryan · April 25, 2014

The flip side of the coin I can see is what if I'm gay, I've got the money, and I want to study at Trinity. Can't do it unless I'm willing to lie about who I am. Sounds like I'm being barred from my occupation because of my beliefs. I also agree that they can do whatever they wish in their own sandbox, but Ontario does recognize same sex marriages so I see the potential for conflict.

There are plenty of pro-gay universities that you can go to, there's no reason for you to sabotage anyone else's right to go to one that is not. You already can have what you want, let them have what they want.

guyser · April 26, 2014

And I'm sure there are so many gay people who are crying tonight because they can't go to Trinity...

On that note....And I'm sure there are so many many TWU lawyer grads who are crying tonight because they can't practice in Ontario . :rolleyes:

Edited April 26, 2014 by Guyser2

Bryan · April 26, 2014

On that note....And I'm sure there are so many many TWU lawyer grads who are crying tonight because they can't practice in Ontario .

Just based on Ontario's sheer population alone, there's going to be more christians who want to be lawyers there than anywhere else in Canada.

WestCoastRunner · April 26, 2014

Nova Scotia's Barrister Society has issued their ruling:

They will only accept articling students from the school if it changes the covenant for law students or allows them to opt out.

Elaine Craig, a faculty member at the Schulich School of Law at Dalhousie University, told the society panel that endorsing the institution would amount to sanctioning "blatant and explicit discrimination" and is not consistent with Charter values.

WestCoastRunner · April 26, 2014

It will be interesting if the Law Societies lose when this goes to the SC because that is where it will probably wind up. This would seem an ideal case for the highest court.

Tell me, would you be happy if you were barred from your occupation because of personal beliefs that had nothing to do with your ability to do your job? Trinity should be judged on the quality of its program and nothing else. Individual employers can decide whether they want to hire its graduates.

The issue is that the university will discriminate against students. And this IMO is taking a few steps backwards with regards to equal rights in Canada.

WestCoastRunner · April 26, 2014

This is the first time the Upper Canada Law Society has barred any students from any university to article in Ontario. This is setting a precedent and for them to do this, there must have been some serious discussions going on. This wasn't a knee jerk reaction.

On Guard for Thee · April 26, 2014

There are plenty of pro-gay universities that you can go to, there's no reason for you to sabotage anyone else's right to go to one that is not. You already can have what you want, let them have what they want.

I'm not sabotaging it. The SCC has already ruled that this "covenant" is discriminatory. And apparently you can go to Trinity if you are gay, so long as you don't have sex. Talk about muddy waters, although religion has ever been thus.

WestCoastRunner · April 26, 2014

I'm not sabotaging it. The SCC has already ruled that this "covenant" is discriminatory. And apparently you can go to Trinity if you are gay, so long as you don't have sex. Talk about muddy waters, although religion has ever been thus.

It's the old 'don't ask, don't tell', bs.

On Guard for Thee · April 26, 2014

What does Trinity plan to do I wonder, put spies on you to follow you around and see who you have sex with? Put hidden cctv's in all the dorms? One thing about it is it will provide an interesting "home grown" topic for buddinbg lawyers to discuss. It will be interesting to see how TWU responds to the NS response.

WestCoastRunner · April 26, 2014

What does Trinity plan to do I wonder, put spies on you to follow you around and see who you have sex with? Put hidden cctv's in all the dorms? One thing about it is it will provide an interesting "home grown" topic for buddinbg lawyers to discuss. It will be interesting to see how TWU responds to the NS response.

Their lawyers are in discussions with them.

Wilber · April 26, 2014

I'm not sabotaging it. The SCC has already ruled that this "covenant" is discriminatory. And apparently you can go to Trinity if you are gay, so long as you don't have sex. Talk about muddy waters, although religion has ever been thus.

There is no question it is discriminatory. Does that give law societies the right to discriminate against the school's students for reasons that have nothing to do with course content and academic standards.

TimG · April 26, 2014

Law societies should concern themselves with the practice of law, not political correctness. The BC society got it right. Ontario's didn't, they have made themselves into social activists and abused their power.

Yet more evidence that real intolerant bigots in out society that we have to worry about come from the ranks of politically correct finger waggers.

What grates me is my reading of this policy is it would allow an out gay person who simply abstained from sex. No lying. No hiding - just abstention like all of their hetero classmates. The only time differential treatment comes up is with a married couple but give me a break: married couples are few and far between in university.

Edited April 26, 2014 by TimG

On Guard for Thee · April 26, 2014

It's a tough question for sure, and I'm no lawyer. But it seems to me to go against charter rights and if law schools don't uphold the charter, who will?

Wilber · April 26, 2014

The issue is that the university will discriminate against students. And this IMO is taking a few steps backwards with regards to equal rights in Canada.

So that makes it OK for everyone else to discriminate against its graduates. As long as this school gets no public money, they should be free to discriminate as they wish as long as they don't break the law. You would think a law society should be able to grasp such a concept.

Wilber · April 26, 2014

It's a tough question for sure, and I'm no lawyer. But it seems to me to go against charter rights and if law schools don't uphold the charter, who will?

Then the solution should be simple, let the courts decide whether they are violating the charter. I think this is where we are headed anyway.

On Guard for Thee · April 26, 2014

Then the solution should be simple, let the courts decide whether they are violating the charter. I think this is where we are headed anyway.

I suspect so and it will be interesting to see what they come up with. And if it goes all the way to the SC at least they may now have time to deal with it since they seem to have put Harper to bed.