Bonam Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 Eight pages deep, arguing about something that anyone with a modicum of intelligence would agree with: initial consent is not perpetual consent and consent should not be coerced. I'm pretty sure everyone here would agree with that and I'm not in any way interested in humouring anyone that doesn't. No one disagrees with the statement "initial consent is not perpetual consent and consent should not be coerced". The non-perpetuity of consent is fully covered under no means no, as no can be stated at any time even if there was previously a yes. No expansion of the definition is required. Quote
cybercoma Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 It is needed because someone can show that they're not interested in having sex in other ways than simply using the word "no." Does anyone really ask a yes or no question when engaging in sex? Does "stop" mean "no"? Does "I don't really want to" mean "no"? Does "I don't know" mean "no"? No means no is inappropriately simplistic. Quote
Argus Posted March 6, 2014 Author Report Posted March 6, 2014 That is, I agree that criminal charges in rape cases must be done with care, with a robust determination to ensure justice is done--with the accused's rights central. Really? So what do you think of the way the law on sexual assault treats intoxication? I.e, being intoxicated makes the 'victim' completely incapable of rendering (or being in any way responsible for)any decision the victim makes regarding sex or their consent to it. However, being intoxicated can in no way, shape or form be used to excuse, in any way, any decisions the 'suspect' makes with regard to sex or consent. And if both are drunk the 'victim' will be whomever decides to call the police about it (invariably the woman). Has there EVER been a case where a pair of drunks had sex and the man then went to the police the next day to complain he was too drunk to give consent? He'd be laughed out of the police station. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 6, 2014 Author Report Posted March 6, 2014 Humourless and sexist. Charming. And clearly showing a lot of bitterness and resentment of men. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 6, 2014 Author Report Posted March 6, 2014 More importantly, once the mismatch between the law and their beliefs is exposed they are likely to demand that the law be changed. That is why is it wrong to pretend that there is no connection between the campaign and the criteria used to lay charges. Yes, I see the University of Ottawa is starting a committee on "rape culture' on campus. This is a phrase which started at St. Mary's, and seems, if you actually pin down the people involved, to mean men thinking, looking and talking lustfully about women. In other words rape culture = male culture. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Bonam Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 It is needed because someone can show that they're not interested in having sex in other ways than simply using the word "no." Does anyone really ask a yes or no question when engaging in sex? Does "stop" mean "no"? Does "I don't really want to" mean "no"? Does "I don't know" mean "no"? No means no is inappropriately simplistic. It should be obvious that any verbal expression that withdraws consent, not just the word "no", qualifies as no. On the other hand, a lack of or a decrease in frequency of positive affirmation is not the same thing. Slight changes in body language also do not qualify. Quote
Argus Posted March 6, 2014 Author Report Posted March 6, 2014 The purpose of the campaign is to raise awareness among students about the importance of consent. You're entitled to your fantasies, I suppose, but that's the long and short of it. No means No, is a campaign to raise awareness of the importance of concept. Yes does not mean Yes is quite another matter. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 6, 2014 Author Report Posted March 6, 2014 You should take half a second to think about what it's like to be a woman when she initially gives consent, but then wants the sex to stop and the guy doesn't. What has that got to do with anything? Unless you're saying that her 'wanting him to stop' effectively makes him a rapist of he doesn't EVEN IF SHE NEVER SAYS SO. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
g_bambino Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 Does "stop" mean "no"? Does "I don't really want to" mean "no"? Does "I don't know" mean "no"? No means no is inappropriately simplistic. Deciding whether or not there's "constant enthusiasm" isn't so easy as interpreting the clear verbal expressions you bring up. Quote
g_bambino Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 Yes, I see the University of Ottawa is starting a committee on "rape culture' on campus. This is a phrase which started at St. Mary's, and seems, if you actually pin down the people involved, to mean men thinking, looking and talking lustfully about women. In other words rape culture = male culture. Yup. And women thinking, looking, and talking lustfully about men is Sex and the City. Quote
Argus Posted March 6, 2014 Author Report Posted March 6, 2014 Kind of a funny (slightly obscene) but not untrue take on enthusiastic consent and its origins. http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/enthusiastic-stupidity/ Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 6, 2014 Author Report Posted March 6, 2014 Yup. And women thinking, looking, and talking lustfully about men is Sex and the City. Well, yes, but that only happens on TV. Women don't look, talk or think lustfully about men unless some man makes them or they're drunk, you know. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Black Dog Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) Has there EVER been a case where a pair of drunks had sex and the man then went to the police the next day to complain he was too drunk to give consent? He'd be laughed out of the police station. And that I suppose is Teh Feminist's fault, eh. Yes, I see the University of Ottawa is starting a committee on "rape culture' on campus. This is a phrase which started at St. Mary's, and seems, if you actually pin down the people involved, to mean men thinking, looking and talking lustfully about women. In other words rape culture = male culture. Not even close, but I guess when you get your news from neckbeard MRA websites, ignorance is to be expected. Edited March 6, 2014 by Black Dog Quote
cybercoma Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 Great. This thread has now completely turned into "FEMINISTS BAD! MEN ARE NEVER RAPED!" The enlightenment on this forum never ceases to amaze me. Argus's comment that "male culture" is necessarily a culture about ignoring women as thinking, feeling, and autonomous human beings, in other words male culture is about looking at women as objects to be consumed. They're nothing more than vehicles for you to get off on. That's "male culture," eh? Your male culture is disgusting and inhumane. Most of the men I know treat women with respect and wouldn't for an instant think it's objectionable that a university starts a campaign to educate morons that think it's ok to continue forcing sex on a woman that's just not that interested in it. Some people treat women as if they're human beings with thoughts and feelings and rights like anybody else. Then you have people that are rape apologists that excuse disgusting behaviour by claiming it is "male culture." That's not male culture and it's not something that deserves respect. You should be ashamed of yourself if you take pride in that kind of barbaric idiocy. Quote
Black Dog Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 Don't forget: "male culture" also includes being laughed out of the police station for reporting sexual assault because men are supposed to always want sex and not be such pussies about it already. I would assume too that "male culture" means men thinking, looking and talking lustfully about women, but in the phrase's creator's mind, would not include taking that sexual aggression and directing it at an unwilling recipient, for example in the form of unsolicited comments on the street or actual sexual assault. Because of reasons. Quote
bleeding heart Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 It's idiotic. Men on this very thread are convinced that false allegations of rape is the crucial issue. But--as they well know, or should--false allegations of rape, especially those that lead to charges (much less convictions) are a rarity. (That they don't know this salient fact begs a question or two, since they are so eager to propound on the matter.) It's not that I don't take false allegations of rape seriously--I can scarcely imagine anything I'd less wish to be accused of, personally--and false allegations are, properly, a criminal act. But false allegations of rape are in the same range as false allegations of other crimes...and that's if we don't factor in the number of rapes not reported (the majority of them, that is). In other words, rape is arguably falsely alleged less than most other crimes. So in the context of sexual assault, this "war on men" meme doesn't exist. It's an interesting phenomenon that reactionary-tending men (and their "cool girl" cohorts, like Wente and Paglia) feel so aggrieved by the injustices perpetrated by false rape allegations...which are in fact exceedingly rare. Meanwhile, that the majority of rapes go unreported (for reasons that are obvious to those not mentally subdued by silly ideological impulses)...well, none of these guys spends a nanosecond thinking about them....much less posting repeatedly on the subject, and--like our inimitable TimG--claiming that I "don't take rape seriously." (I don't mind slapping around these cute little attack dogs when they post stuff they don't believe...but I do admit I'm getting bored with the little fellers.) So let's get to the heart of this "outrage" that has spawned this debate: a decision by student groups to conduct a campus educational campaign uses a couple rhetorical flights that are, in my personal view, not the best word-choices; but after all, they are trying to get through to the knuckleheads who don't even know what rape is, for chrissake. So there's no issue. Until some people decide that they are the "victims" of all this. Frigging laughable, man. And what's the response here? Well, a PC-infested criminal justice system, evidently, and presumably the End of Manhood as we know it... ...all thanks to "feminists"...and (thank you, Argus), "lesbians," of course. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
cybercoma Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) . Edited March 6, 2014 by cybercoma Quote
bleeding heart Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 I have no desire to quibble pedantically about the numbers--especially with folks here who think men are the Really True Victims of Sex Crimes When You Get Down To It--but it's an uncontroversial truth that most rapes are unreported. Another poster told me I shouldn't be pointing out that Western nations commit and support terrorism, because it "muddies the waters" of debate.... ...sorry, Cyber, I just don't get it. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
guyser Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 And if both are drunk the 'victim' will be whomever decides to call the police about it (invariably the woman).No, the victim will be the one who doesnt do the raping. Booze and drugs screw up more rape cases than anything I know of. Both drunk? Charges are unlikely. Physical evidence (of non bruise type)is generally lost by the time police are contacted, memory lapses , conflicting stories....all suggest that charges wont occur. And women suffer greatly for it Quote
Black Dog Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 I have no desire to quibble pedantically about the numbers--especially with folks here who think men are the Really True Victims of Sex Crimes When You Get Down To It--but it's an uncontroversial truth that most rapes are unreported. Worth noting that also applies to rapes of men, which are even more grossly under reported. Probably because the feminists or the lesbians or the lesbian feminists. Quote
bleeding heart Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 Yes, it is a seriously underreported issue, as is domestic violence committed against men. And yes, it's doubtless the fault of lesbian feminists, leftists, unwed mothers, and other social ills. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
TimG Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) So let's get to the heart of this "outrage" that has spawned this debate: a decision by student groups to conduct a campus educational campaign uses a couple rhetorical flights that are, in my personal view, not the best word-choices; but after all, they are trying to get through to the knuckleheads who don't even know what rape is, for chrissake.And how is this cause helped by spreading misinformation that draws ridicule? Rape is a very serious crime and should not be debased by a bunch of activists deciding to redefine the word in ways that do not match up with the law. If they wanted to define a higher standard for "non criminal rape" then they should have been clear about their intentions. But as I said, my guess is these activists honestly believe that the law should be changed to conform to their view because people who become activists are not known for nuanced thinking. This makes the endless defenses of them in this thread even more ridiculous. Edited March 6, 2014 by TimG Quote
bleeding heart Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) You said they were clear about their intentions. Your backtracking is noted, and, frankly, mildly appreciated. As for your remark about "activists"...I take it you're not a fan of the ruling Conservative Party, which simply could not exist in its present form without the hard work (and, one might even hesitantly presume, sincere principles) of conservative activists. Edited March 6, 2014 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
TimG Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) You said they were clear about their intentions.I was just humoring you. It is clear to anyone who is not intent on deluding themselves that the activists behind the campaign want people to believe the that the criminal definition of rape/sexual assault is the same as their definition. It does not matter if that means they are just dishonest or that they want the laws to change. They are still putting out a new definition for criminal rape and it makes sense for people to speak up and point out that this new criteria is ridiculous. Edited March 6, 2014 by TimG Quote
bleeding heart Posted March 6, 2014 Report Posted March 6, 2014 Humouring me...but without anything to flag this in any way. you see, tim old chap, some of us are trying to have honest, civil debates....while others are accusing other posters of "not taking rape seriously," and changing their opinions on a dime, only to backtrack again and claim they didn't mean it..... If you're not interested in honest debate, you should go back your men's group drum-circle and complain about how feminists are ruining civilization. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
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