There is no such thing as an "Israeli".

[bud]

Bud at no time have I ever denied the immigration laws discriminate.

yes you did.

A citizen born in Israel whether they are Jewish, Muslim or Christian, Druze, Arab, Jewish, etc., have the same rights.

so with your latest comment, i'm assuming that you are finally acknowledging that israel has discriminatory laws against non-jews. yes?

[Rue]

yes you did.

so with your latest comment, i'm assuming that you are finally acknowledging that israel has discriminatory laws against non-jews. yes?

No I did not and already responded why I did not.

1-I have never stated that the law of return is not discriminatory in nature-never at any time:

2-You now are referring to another law that does not allow non Jewish Israeli citizens to marry Palestinian non Jews a law that also applies to Israeli Jews who try marry a Palestinian non Jews.

I already explained the law preventing Palestinian non Jews from marrying Israelis applys to all Israelis Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druzem atheists who try marry non Jewish Palestinians.

I explained this law was not created because it defines Palestinians as inferiors but because of security concerns as to possible terrorists coming in from the West Bank or GAza.

I never denied any of these laws discriminate. I did explain why they do and why simply statingt hey discriminate and then not going further to understand why they discriminate is disingenuine.

I already explained that this law also applies to Iraqis, Syrians, Lebanese, Afghanis, Iranians who are non Jews. Its also being applied now to Russians, Ethiopians, Sudanese, Africans of all kinds of nations, Turks, Egyptians Jewish and non Jewish.

An Israeli Jew, an Israeli Muslim, an Israeli Christian, an Israeli Druze, an Israeli atheist, will all not be able when trying to marry a non Jewish Palestinian face this security issue preventing citizenship. All will be treated the same way for security reasons.

For that matter Bud the law of return does not provide automatic fast tracking for Jews from these countries. They still are screened as well for security reasons and can be rejected from citizenship if considered a security risk.

Bud its not working.

No one suggests these laws do not discriminate. What I have stated is the discrimination you throw out and claim is racist in itself is not specific to Palestinian non Jews so your premises that it is racist is bull sheeyit.

It does not describe Palestinians as inferiors. Never did.

You want to keep dancing Bud? Really?

Tell me Bud, if you applied for immigration in Canada and stated your goal was to make it Muslim and you believed violence was an acceptable method to making it Muslim do you think you might have a problem becoming Canadian?

Does it make Canada racist to set up criteria that discriminates or is selective against people coming from conflict zoneswith terrorists ?

Bud its not working. Your attempt to suggest Israel is racist against Palestinians and is the only country in the world with selective immigration criteria is absurd.

This is like playing wack a mole at the penny arcade.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Rue

[bud]

No I did not and already responded why I did not.

1-I have never stated that the law of return is not discriminatory in nature-never at any time:

2-You now are referring to another law that does not allow non Jewish Israeli citizens to marry Palestinian non Jews a law that also applies to Israeli Jews who try marry a Palestinian non Jews.

I already explained the law preventing Palestinian non Jews from marrying Israelis applys to all Israelis Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druzem atheists who try marry non Jewish Palestinians.

I explained this law was not created because it defines Palestinians as inferiors but because of security concerns as to possible terrorists coming in from the West Bank or GAza.

I never denied any of these laws discriminate. I did explain why they do and why simply statingt hey discriminate and then not going further to understand why they discriminate is disingenuine.

I already explained that this law also applies to Iraqis, Syrians, Lebanese, Afghanis, Iranians who are non Jews. Its also being applied now to Russians, Ethiopians, Sudanese, Africans of all kinds of nations, Turks, Egyptians Jewish and non Jewish.

An Israeli Jew, an Israeli Muslim, an Israeli Christian, an Israeli Druze, an Israeli atheist, will all not be able when trying to marry a non Jewish Palestinian face this security issue preventing citizenship. All will be treated the same way for security reasons.

For that matter Bud the law of return does not provide automatic fast tracking for Jews from these countries. They still are screened as well for security reasons and can be rejected from citizenship if considered a security risk.

Bud its not working.

No one suggests these laws do not discriminate. What I have stated is the discrimination you throw out and claim is racist in itself is not specific to Palestinian non Jews so your premises that it is racist is bull sheeyit.

It does not describe Palestinians as inferiors. Never did.

You want to keep dancing Bud? Really?

Tell me Bud, if you applied for immigration in Canada and stated your goal was to make it Muslim and you believed violence was an acceptable method to making it Muslim do you think you might have a problem becoming Canadian?

Does it make Canada racist to set up criteria that discriminates or is selective against people coming from conflict zoneswith terrorists ?

Bud its not working. Your attempt to suggest Israel is racist against Palestinians and is the only country in the world with selective immigration criteria is absurd.

This is like playing wack a mole at the penny arcade.

you're nothing but a troll.

due to your ultra-nationalistic feelings and the inability to admit fault, to protect your tribe, you can't come to admit the obvious, blatant discriminatory laws against non-jews, both inside israel and in the occupied territories. this is a problem within you and i really don't want to waste my time with you. this is my last post in this regard, where i will acknowledge you:

There are more than 50 Israeli laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel in all areas of life, including their rights to political participation, access to land, education, state budget resources, and criminal procedures.

israeli discriminatory laws

[GostHacked]

Rue, what do you make of this then? I posted it in the other thread about Kerry and got no response.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/business/judaization-of-the-negev-at-any-cost-1.406251

Some six weeks ago, the Israeli government decided to push for the establishment of 10 new villages in a 180 square kilometer stretch of land straddling the Green Line, between Arad and Meitar.

The proposal was submitted by the Prime Minister's Office, Strategic Affairs Minister Moshe Ya'alon and Minister for the Development of the Negev and Galilee Silvan Shalom. The decision stated that the move is part of the government's policy to promote and develop the periphery while lowering housing prices. It turns out, in fact, that behind the decision lies another purpose - preventing the Bedouin from "taking over" the area.

If that is not racist in form, I have no idea what is. Purposeful displacement of another population WITHIN Israel proper.

[g_bambino]

Is this just?

Certainly. In the context of nations that are purely cultural (i.e. Scot, First Nation, Acadian, Hebrew, Arab, or Druze), Israeli doesn't fit; it's rather like the old Sesame Street game, 'one of these things just doesn't belong here'. In terms of nations as geo-political entities, Israeli exists, as does German, Australian, French, Canadian, etc.

[Rue]

Rue, what do you make of this then? I posted it in the other thread about Kerry and got no response.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/business/judaization-of-the-negev-at-any-cost-1.406251

If that is not racist in form, I have no idea what is. Purposeful displacement of another population WITHIN Israel proper.

This law reflects a land dispute and whether Israelis or Palestinians should have a right to it. Its a land dispute. The land dispute is not predicated on the notion that because Palestinians are an inferior race they should not have the land. Its based on the notion that Jews of Israel are equal in rights to the Palestinians of the West Bank as to the land. Stop defining it as racist. Its not predicated on perceptions of one race being better than the other.

Now are you asking me is it an obstacle to peace? Is it problematic in obtaining an overall permanent peace with Palestinians in the long term-on that I have answered in other posts yes.

Let's get it clear-I understand why you criticize this development as unfair. No problem with why you say that. Once you call it racist, then yes I do.

As for Kerry I think he is an idiot. By saying outloud if Israel does not unilaterally withdraw from all of the West Bank there will be another infifadah he has in fact stated loudly and clearly to Abbas he supports another intifadah if there is no unilateral withdrawal. It was a completely irresponsible and moronic thing to say. That is the kind of comment that belonged behind closed doors.

You want my opinion? I think for Netanyahu to sell any deal with Israel he has to assure Israelis their security is not endangered. I think his posturing and all these unfair land grabs you think you see are in fact part of a continuing an elaborate complex game of give and take he and Abbas were engaging in to each other. Each time Abbas made a unilateral demand, Netanyahu answered with a unilateral land grab. It was a tit for tat. In the long run I think all Israel wants is defensible borders, nothing else but Kerry has made it clear he does not give a flying phack about defensible borders and thinks he can arbitrarily demand Israel withdraw to the pre 1967 border. Of course they can not as long as fatah Hawks, Hezbollah and Hamas remain armed. That will never happen.

For Israel to be able to unilaterally withdraw back to the 1967 borders, those three groups and all other terrorists would have to disband.

This is no different then what had to happen in Nothern Ireland.

This notion Kerry has that Israel return to a border that places them directly in harm's way of Fatah Hawks, Hezbollah and Hamas is a crock of sheeyit.

It was a deliberate attempt by Kerry to sabotage the talks to placate Iran. That was deliberately done so he could go suck up to Iran which is what he did. He sabotaged the talks in the middle of them then headed off to kiss up to Iran to get an oil deal.

Kerry sold out Israel. He sold out moderates like me who were trying to convince right wing Israelis to cool it and talk peace. He has castrated any attempt we had to try urge peace. He also in one foul comment castrated the moderate Palestinians who do not want fatah Hawks to remain armed.

By saying what he did Fatah hawks will not not have to disarm as part of the peace talks making it impossible for their to be peace not just with Israel but Jordan. He is a prize idiot.

Do I think Israel should remain in the West Bank/ Me no. I am a Kadima supporter. I support safe borders only which means some deviations to the border to allow for security posts but I am talking about 5% of the land on the West Bank.

I also believe contrary to what you and so many other do, that Israel has just as much a legitimate legal right to the West Bank as any Palestinian.

I do not think Palestinians have superior rights to Jews to the West bank. I find that notion, i.e., the notion Jews have an inferior right to the lands of the Middle East a racist one that flows from Sharia law and dhimmitude.

That said, I think from a purely practical point of view another nation needs to be created on the West Bank because Israel can not absorb such people and remain Jewish as a state so it has no choice but to recognize that.

[Rue]

you're nothing but a troll.

due to your ultra-nationalistic feelings and the inability to admit fault, to protect your tribe, you can't come to admit the obvious, blatant discriminatory laws against non-jews, both inside israel and in the occupied territories. this is a problem within you and i really don't want to waste my time with you. this is my last post in this regard, where i will acknowledge you:

There are more than 50 Israeli laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel in all areas of life, including their rights to political participation, access to land, education, state budget resources, and criminal procedures.

israeli discriminatory laws

Bud the name calling and petulence because you have no idea how to respond to me speaks for itself.

lol.

[GostHacked]

Rue, nice rant, but that post I made was not about Palestinians nor was it in the occupied territories.

[Hudson Jones]

Kerry sold out Israel. He sold out moderates like me who were trying to convince right wing Israelis to cool it and talk peace.

If you consider yourself a moderate in the Jewish political spectrum, then there is no hope in relying on moderates to reach a just and lawful solution when it comes to the occupied Palestinian territory.

It's time to side-step the rightwing Zionists and the so-called Jewish moderates, like you. Hopefully Obama and Kerry will continue to avoid the immense pressure from Bibi, AIPAC and the bought congress. They look to be doing just that. Just like when it came to Syria, they allowed the American people to decide whether they wanted another war or diplomatic engagement. The American people chose diplomacy and congress had no choice but to go with the overwhelming majority.

We're seeing the same thing with Iran. It's either diplomacy, which the rest of the world, including the P5+1 (minus the French, who have their own economic reasons), want OR war.

New Iran sanctions would risk war, White House warns

Washington (AFP) - The White House has warned US lawmakers that tightening sanctions on Iran could derail a diplomatic drive for a nuclear deal with Iran, boxing America into a "march to war."

link

[Hudson Jones]

this is important information on israel's influence over france's foreign policy.

Unlike the United States, where the pro-Israeli influence is exerted through campaign contributions coordinated by AIPAC, in France the presidency has nearly complete control over foreign policy. A small group of officials has shaped policy toward Iran and Israel for the past six years. The people who are now advising Fabius on Iran are, in fact, the same ones who advised Sarkozy's foreign ministers Bernard Kouchner and Alain Juppe. "There is, in the ministry of foreign affairs, a tightly knit team of advisers on strategic affairs and non-proliferation which has played a major role in shaping the French position on Iran over the years," a knowledgeable French source told Truthout. The direction the group has taken French policy generally has coincided with that of the neoconservatives in the United States, according to close observers of that policy.

At the center of that tight-knit group is the former French ambassador to the United States during the George W. Bush administration, Jean-David Levitte. He was appointed diplomatic adviser to Sarkozy in 2007. Levitte, who has been called by some the "real foreign minister" of France, has family ties to Israel and Zionism. His uncle, Simon Levitt, was co-founder of the Zionist Youth Movement in France.

link

[Rue]

If you consider yourself a moderate in the Jewish political spectrum, then there is no hope in relying on moderates to reach a just and lawful solution when it comes to the occupied Palestinian territory.

It's time to side-step the rightwing Zionists and the so-called Jewish moderates, like you. Hopefully Obama and Kerry will continue to avoid the immense pressure from Bibi, AIPAC and the bought congress. They look to be doing just that. Just like when it came to Syria, they allowed the American people to decide whether they wanted another war or diplomatic engagement. The American people chose diplomacy and congress had no choice but to go with the overwhelming majority.

We're seeing the same thing with Iran. It's either diplomacy, which the rest of the world, including the P5+1 (minus the French, who have their own economic reasons), want OR war.

New Iran sanctions would risk war, White House warns

Washington (AFP) - The White House has warned US lawmakers that tightening sanctions on Iran could derail a diplomatic drive for a nuclear deal with Iran, boxing America into a "march to war."

link

If you consider yourself a moderate in the Jewish political spectrum, then there is no hope in relying on moderates to reach a just and lawful solution when it comes to the occupied Palestinian territory.

It's time to side-step the rightwing Zionists and the so-called Jewish moderates, like you. Hopefully Obama and Kerry will continue to avoid the immense pressure from Bibi, AIPAC and the bought congress. They look to be doing just that. Just like when it came to Syria, they allowed the American people to decide whether they wanted another war or diplomatic engagement. The American people chose diplomacy and congress had no choice but to go with the overwhelming majority.

We're seeing the same thing with Iran. It's either diplomacy, which the rest of the world, including the P5+1 (minus the French, who have their own economic reasons), want OR war.

New Iran sanctions would risk war, White House warns

Washington (AFP) - The White House has warned US lawmakers that tightening sanctions on Iran could derail a diplomatic drive for a nuclear deal with Iran, boxing America into a "march to war."

link

Lol. Right side step us and leave it to moderates like you and Bud. Lol.

[Rue]

this is important information on israel's influence over france's foreign policy.

Unlike the United States, where the pro-Israeli influence is exerted through campaign contributions coordinated by AIPAC, in France the presidency has nearly complete control over foreign policy. A small group of officials has shaped policy toward Iran and Israel for the past six years. The people who are now advising Fabius on Iran are, in fact, the same ones who advised Sarkozy's foreign ministers Bernard Kouchner and Alain Juppe. "There is, in the ministry of foreign affairs, a tightly knit team of advisers on strategic affairs and non-proliferation which has played a major role in shaping the French position on Iran over the years," a knowledgeable French source told Truthout. The direction the group has taken French policy generally has coincided with that of the neoconservatives in the United States, according to close observers of that policy.

At the center of that tight-knit group is the former French ambassador to the United States during the George W. Bush administration, Jean-David Levitte. He was appointed diplomatic adviser to Sarkozy in 2007. Levitte, who has been called by some the "real foreign minister" of France, has family ties to Israel and Zionism. His uncle, Simon Levitt, was co-founder of the Zionist Youth Movement in France.

link

Now then. You HudsonBud spent months on this forum explaining how Israel controls the US medi and foreign policy in favour of Israel. Now as Obama and Kerry openly turn on Israel showing your conspiracy theory was nothing but an anti-Semitic retread of ah Joo world comnspiracy and it blows up into absurd shred....what do you do...come back only recycle it as a Joo conspiracy in France.

What a joke. What an absolute joke for you to come on this forum after your Joo in the USA conspiracy is reduced to shreds and try it again with France while cheering on Obama and Kerry?

Go on explain how of dah JOOZ control the US why Obama and Kerry are now openly anti Israel. Please finish one JOOO conspiracy before you start another.

Then you try suggest Sarkozy's government was pro Israel? Then you ask people to infer the current regime totally different to Sarkozy's is just magically infected by the same JOO germ?

Just pathetic.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Rue

[Hudson Jones]

Now then. You HudsonBud spent months on this forum explaining how Israel controls the US medi and foreign policy in favour of Israel.

It's difficult having conversations with people such as you, who have very little attention span. You're usually so busy fuming with anger and too busy defending your tribe, that you're unable to comprehend what has been said and how things have been explained. Instead, you comeback with half-truths and defaming comments.

AIPAC still has a huge influence when it comes to U.S. foreign policy, especially when it comes to the middle east. Why? Because they hold this power over the congress and senate. Look at the way the senate, both dems and republicans are responding to Kerry, who is asking the senate to hold off on 'new' sanctions on Iran.

This is no conspiracy theory since there is proof in their actions and proof in the amount of money these guys receive from the pro-Israeli lobby groups. Stop pretending otherwise. In the article you responded, it's mentioned the same thing. So there is no contradiction on where I stand and what I have said in the past. You need to improve your attention span and stop imagining things in your head.

Kerry and his White House entourage had a chat with U.S. senators and it was like trying to convince Bibi to give negotiations a chance. Here is one of AIPAC's favourite poodles, senator Mark Kirk:

“I was supposed to disbelieve everything the Israelis had just told me, and I think the Israelis probably have a pretty good intelligence service,” Kirk said. He revealed that the Israelis had told him that the “total changes proposed set back the program by 24 days.”

Kirk also adopted the Israeli comparisons of the Iran deal to the Munich Agreement, saying: “Today is the day I witnessed the future of nuclear war in the Middle East.”

Makes you wonder which country he is representing.

A final note, Rue: Pay attention to what is being discussed and stop misrepresenting people.

[Rue]

Lol, defending my tribe? My tribe?

Tee hee. Nudge nudge wink wink we all know how Jews cover up for one

another right Hudson. I mean you know we engage in conspiracies and only café for ourselves right?

Finish this Hudson. Don't come on this forum, make an anti-semitic slur and pose as being credible. Finish it.

What tribe are you Hudson. Well?

Isn't it interesting I have asked you or is it Bud, or is it both, to disclose your Muslim identities and you won't... in fact your refuse to disclose your tribal identities but you feel it appropriate you can attack mine?

Tell me Hudson/Bud, finish what you start? If I am a Jew engaged in a tribal defence what are you two? Why is it

I do not hide my ethnicity and you 2 refuse to disclose yours?

Why is it you feel you can come on this forum and slur my being a Jew and insult me for being a Jew, but you

won't admit who you are and what tribe you are from?

Why?

What gives you the right to come on this forum, make a personal attack on me lacking credibilitysimply because I am a Jew who believes I have the right to a collective identity but you and Bud do not admit you are Muslim and have an anti Jewish bias?

Hmmm?

Finish what you started Hudson.

Do you deny you are a Muslim? Why won't Bud admit he is a Muslim?

Don't you 2 fear if people knew you were Muslim it would undermine your credibility? Isn't that why you use anglo sounding names like Hudson Jones and Bud?

Well?

Wait do you want to tell me that is your real name and you are actually a white guy who puts mayonnaise on white bread with ham and loves checkered pants, golf, and are a good Christian?

Well? What tribe are you "Hudson Jones"? If you feel it appropriate to insult mine and suggest it disqualifies me from having a credible opinion on Israel about you?

If your real name was Ahmed would you say so? Do you think it appropriate I come on this forum and when I think someone is Muslim slur them?

You are quick to throw in the comments that insult my right as a Jews to be a Jew and defend my right to be a collective identity but what about you Hudson Hones?

Why do you not disclose your tribe and why do you not refer to Palestinians as a tribe or yourself as a tribe member?

Finish it Hudson. Don't come on and try insult me as engaging in a tribal war simply because I am a Jew defending Jews who want to live in their own collective identity. Finish it.

What is your tribe?

Edited November 15, 2013 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Hey Rue, I'd like you to explain the link I provided. It was not about Palestinians or the occupied territories. It showed deliberate 'ethnic cleansing' in an area where they want Jews to be the majority. If others are granted full rights within Israel then why is this happening within Israel?

[Rue]

Hey Rue, I'd like you to explain the link I provided. It was not about Palestinians or the occupied territories. It showed deliberate 'ethnic cleansing' in an area where they want Jews to be the majority. If others are granted full rights within Israel then why is this happening within Israel?

Hey Rue. Now if I give you an answer will you bother to read it or just dismiss it as too long as you usually do? Are you really interested in an answer and explanation? I have taken the time to give you one.

The "Abu Basma Plan" (Resolution 881), created a regional council that unified Bedouin settlements through the Abu Bhasma Regional Council and this came about at the end of September, 1983. This initiative restablished 7 new Beduin settlements conferring municipal status on these settlements as well as services and infrastructure. The council came into operation at the end of January 1984.

With that in mind, Israel is now building or enlarging 13 towns and cities in the Negev and is trying to create a network of schools, medical clinics, postal offices, an electric grid, running water and waste control.

As part of that initiative there are to be new industrial zones to provide employment.

At the current time, the Bedouins of Israel receive free education and medical services from the state.

They are also provided child cash benefits, and many argue this has provided an incentive which has caused a high birthrate in their community. While their birth rate rises, their unemploymenr rate remains constant. According to statistics kept their lack of employment is directly liked to the fact that less than 4% of the Beduins complete high school and as few as .06% of their population will go to university or college.

The Beduins face the exact same issues as they do in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and all the other Arab League nations they live in. They have not been able to adjust to creeping urbanization of economic modernization.

To understand the Beduin people is to understand they reject the concept of being told to live in one place or to go to school. Their life is linked to travelling the land from Morrocco to Pakistan and back again in a constant movement. They are nomads. It’s in their blood.

They reject modernization and urban environments so let us be clear, until you understand their problems all over the Middle East and not just with Israel you misrepresent the problems with them.

Israel is no more engaged in ethnic cleansing of them than Egypt or Jordan or Syria, or any other Arab League state i when they have implemented the same sort of government initiatives Israel has done to try find them a place to live in a world where being a nomad living in an animistic state is becoming impossible.

I do note that you will isolate what is happening in Israel with Beduins but ignore the exact same phenomena occuring in Arab states.

In September of 2011, the Israeli government did implement a five-year development plan known as the Prawer plan which is supposed to relocate 30.000-40.000 Negev Bedouin from areas not recognized by the government to government-approved areas.

If Israel as you say was truly engaging in ethnic cleansing, they would be expelling them from Israel. They are not. They are trying to find a way to unify them.

In this sense Israel like all Arab league states with Beduins has a dilemma. Do they leave them disjointed and fractured lost in a world that has passed by them, or create for them a unique supporting community where they can have access to water, electricity, hospitals and free schools.

There are parallels with aboriginal peoples in Australia and Canada and the United States.

Interestingly its now interesting to hear the European Community accusing any attempts to move Beduins as forced transfers but this same Europe seems to forget how it forced Jews from their homes and slaughtered them all and has been the site of numerous ethnic battles leading to wars and this is the same set of nations that had no problems travelling throughout the world, stealing land, killing native peoples and building their nations on the resources they plundered-excuse me if I call them two faced phonies and question you now for singling out Israel but not mentioning the initiative Israel is doing is no different than what Egypt, Syria, Jordan, the Gulf States, Morrocco, Tunisia and Libya did.

Even the European community which is anti Israel has not referred to what Israel has done as ethnic cleansing but forced transfer.

Its interesting as well to note that the Israeli laws and initiatives will grant the Beduin land rights.

In the remainder of the Middle East no Arab nation will give Beduin land rights.

Now you want an explanation I will give you one but it is not going to come from removing a Haaretz article out of context.

Israel provides 12 medical clinics in the Negev for Beduins. It provides them free health insurance, access to hospitals, and access to free education. No where else in the Middle East are Beduins given this.

Now let’s talk about land rights since you want to infer Israel discriminates against Beduin land rights.

No country in the Middle East confers land rights to Beduins. Jordan with 40% of its people being Beduin does not even do that. In all the Arab League n ations that have only user priviliges. So before you try suggest Israel is discriminating against them go look at how the Arab League nations treat them.

Under Israeli Law ANY person whether they be a Jew, Muslim Christian, Beduin, just like we citizens in Canada have to register their land title in the Land Registry system or they cannot claim ownership.

The Beduin people don’t understand this concept of owning land. They are nomads. They don’t see land as something to own. They live off it but they can’t fathom the concept that they would own it. They see the earth and its land as something to share not own.

This clashes with modern Western notions of law and land title. Back in the mid 1970s Israel let the Negev Bedouin register their land claims and they then issued certificates as to the size of the tracts claimed.

These certificates then served as the legal basis for Beduins no different than any other Israeli citizen to establish their right of possession to land.

When Israel entered into a peace treaty with Egypt, this required Israel to move an airport out from Egyptian territory given back to Egypt to a tract of land inhabited by 5,000 Beduin.

Just like citizens in Canada who have had their land expropriated for airports the government expropriated the land, but they did, recognizing the land claim certificates of these Beduins, compensated them financially and moved them to other Beduin settlements.

Israel created a Ministerial Committee for the Advancement of Bedouin Affairs which tries to to deal with the problem of land ownership of Beduins.

In its tiny nation where there is just not sufficient land for anyone, Israel has pledged to leave 20% of the land in Bedouin possession and then provide compensation them for the remainder of land that may be used for other purposes. It is not ethnic cleansing. It is the stark reality of a tiny country trying to find a fair way for all its citizens to find a place to live. Having Beduin detached from each other makes it impossible to properly provide them water, electricity, school, and hospital services.

As we speak Beduin break the law and build illegal tents and light structures such as shacks and huts on land they do not own. The government tries to look the other way on that as much as they can but these nomadic settlements if they get too big become permanent and then there are serious sewage and health issues not to mention children not going to school. This is no different than the problem with Romas in Europe, the same Europe that is holier than thou with Israel.

Another problem arises when livestock of the Bedouin, namely sheep graze on land not belonging to Beduins.

The fact is the notion Beduins may feel that they should be able to live and graze wherever they want is just not going to happen. The country is too small, too crowded and does not have sufficient land for that and so Israel is forced to try in the face of that to accommodate as best it can doing what it has.

[Hudson Jones]

I can't believe the constancy Rue has in spreading misinformation. He never misses an opportunity to cover up and apologize for pure, blatant racism and discrimination by Israel.

There is too much to go over, but I will touch up on a few of the myths from Rue:

Myth #1 - The Arab Bedouin are nomads

The Arab Bedouin have organized in settlements in the Naqab since the 16th century; these settlements were largely fixed and stabilized by the 19th century. While their pastoral way of life necessitated seasonal movement, their travel centered around historic villages with privately owned plots of land and collectively held pasture lands. These ancestral settlements and historic villages are now “unrecognized” by the State of Israel.

Myth #2 - The Arab Bedouin don't know how to claim ownership

In 1969, Israel established a process whereby citizens (the Arab Bedouin were granted Israeli citizenship by 1954) could register claims of land ownership with the state. From 1970 to 1979, the Arab Bedouin submitted 3,221 ownership claims over their ancestral land, for a total of 971,000 dunums (242,750 acres). Today, after various settlements with the State, the Arab Bedouin, who make up 30% of the Naqab population, are justly claiming 600,000 dunums (200,000 acres), or less than 5% of the total area of the Naqab.

Myth #3 - The Arab Bedouin live in scattered, unknown settlements; connecting the settlements to infrastructure is impossible and unprecedented

Nearly half of the Arab Bedouin community in the Naqab lives in 45 permanent and known villages, at least 10 of which are in the “process of recognition” by the State. These 45 villages either pre-date the establishment of the State of Israel, or were established in the 1950s by order of the military government that concentrated the Arab Bedouin into the restricted “Siyag” area in the northern Naqab. Ironically, in 2010, the Knesset retroactively legalized around 60 individual settlements in the Naqab that were established without permits and contrary to planning laws. These individual settlements, all but one of which are Jewish owned, are connected to all the basic services and are often located near the

“unrecognized” Bedouin villages.

If you want to learn more about the Prawer Plan and the ethnic cleansing that is taking place, here is one source.

[Hudson Jones]

Lol, defending my tribe? My tribe?

Tee hee. Nudge nudge wink wink we all know how Jews cover up for one

another right Hudson. I mean you know we engage in conspiracies and only café for ourselves right?

Finish this Hudson. Don't come on this forum, make an anti-semitic slur and pose as being credible. Finish it.

What tribe are you Hudson. Well?

Isn't it interesting I have asked you or is it Bud, or is it both, to disclose your Muslim identities and you won't... in fact your refuse to disclose your tribal identities but you feel it appropriate you can attack mine?

Tell me Hudson/Bud, finish what you start? If I am a Jew engaged in a tribal defence what are you two? Why is it

I do not hide my ethnicity and you 2 refuse to disclose yours?

Why is it you feel you can come on this forum and slur my being a Jew and insult me for being a Jew, but you

won't admit who you are and what tribe you are from?

Why?

What gives you the right to come on this forum, make a personal attack on me lacking credibilitysimply because I am a Jew who believes I have the right to a collective identity but you and Bud do not admit you are Muslim and have an anti Jewish bias?

Hmmm?

Finish what you started Hudson.

Do you deny you are a Muslim? Why won't Bud admit he is a Muslim?

Don't you 2 fear if people knew you were Muslim it would undermine your credibility? Isn't that why you use anglo sounding names like Hudson Jones and Bud?

Well?

I'm not Muslim and I'm not Arab. I'm a well-informed, stable and caring person who loves all of humanity. I stand up for humanity and justice and speak against those who side with injustice. I don't pick sides based on the person's religion or background. I pick the side of justice.

My remark was never acknowledged, so I will post one last time, in case you want to have a real, coherent debate, using facts, with citation and links to back-up my claims:

AIPAC still has a huge influence when it comes to U.S. foreign policy, especially when it comes to the middle east. Why? Because they hold this power over the congress and senate. Look at the way the senate, both dems and republicans are responding to Kerry, who is asking the senate to hold off on 'new' sanctions on Iran.

This is no conspiracy theory since there is proof in their actions and proof in the amount of money these guys receive from the pro-Israeli lobby groups. Stop pretending otherwise. In the article you responded, it's mentioned the same thing. So there is no contradiction on where I stand and what I have said in the past. You need to improve your attention span and stop imagining things in your head.

Kerry and his White House entourage had a chat with U.S. senators and it was like trying to convince Bibi to give negotiations a chance. Here is one of AIPAC's favourite poodles, senator Mark Kirk:

“I was supposed to disbelieve everything the Israelis had just told me, and I think the Israelis probably have a pretty good intelligence service,” Kirk said. He revealed that the Israelis had told him that the “total changes proposed set back the program by 24 days.”

Kirk also adopted the Israeli comparisons of the Iran deal to the Munich Agreement, saying: “Today is the day I witnessed the future of nuclear war in the Middle East.”

Makes you wonder which country he is representing.

A final note, Rue: Pay attention to what is being discussed and stop misrepresenting people.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Rue]

Myth #1 - The Arab Bedouin are nomads

Myth #2 - The Arab Bedouin don't know how to claim ownership

Myth #3 - The Arab Bedouin live in scattered, unknown settlements; connecting the settlements to infrastructure is impossible and unprecedented

In regards to alleged myth no.2 at no time did I ever advance the claim they do not know how to advance a claim for land ownership.

For someone who told me to pay attention to what was being stated, you once again show you do the exact thing you criticize others for and you did something else you accuse me of misrepresent.

At no time did I suggest in my response Beduins don't know how to claim ownership. My words are clear. Your tactic Hudson to ignore what I actually stated, and respond to something I never debated making it appear as if I stated it, is well known. Bud does the exact same thing. The tactic is not working Hudson.

In regards to myth 3, at no time did I advance the myth you think you are challenging and so my comments are the same as with your alleged myth 2.

More to the point the geographic sites of where Beduins are located across the Middle East is public domain.

What I did state, and repeat again is exactly what is fact-that many of the Beduin communities are disjointed or dettached from one another so in that sense geographically they are most certainly seperated.

So trying to engage me in a pissing match over the word scattered is hilarious.

It is a fact that Beduins are not centralized and its precisely because of that reason Israel ahs tried to centralize them to provide more efficient hospital, school and housing services not to mention sewage and roads a conflict arises no different than the aboriginals in Canada or Australia.

Its also interesting the partisan article you chose ignores the treatment of Beduin in Arab League nations and does not discuss the fact that Beduins can own land in Israel but not in Arab League nations.

How is it Hudson you ignore that? What makes you think you can come on this board, use a patronizing tone to me to tell me what I must pay attention to while you refuse to respond to what I state?

Tell me Hudson. Why have you ignored the treatment of Beduins anywhere else in the Middle East?

How is it that when other Arab League nations move Beduins it is not ethnic cleansing but when Israel does it is?

go on Hudson finish what you started. Explain how Israel the only nation in the Middle East that provides Beduins free medical care, child benefits, schooling and housing and is relocating them to other land in Israel and granting them land rights, is ethnic cleansing them?

Go on explain. Where are the gas chambers Hudson? You claim they are being killed off finish what you started, You now equate Israel with the Serbians in former Yugoslavia, finish the slur Hudson....where are the mass graves? Where are the massacres?

Finish what you started Hudson.

You attacked me for being a Jew. You made a completely inappropriate comment about me being in a tribe and repeatedly call me a racist for believing my people have a right to a state.

Go on Hudson, show where I stated Beduin were inferior and need to be wiped out. Go on. Finish your slur.

Finish what you start.

See the difference between us Hudson is I will not run to the moderator like you each time you personally attack and use slurs when responding. I let those slurs and your silence and refusal to respond to the points I raise speak for themselves.

That is the tactic right Hudson? In fact it is the exact same tactic as Bud-when you are responded to, you ignore the response and defocus to another issue and never deal with the one I respond to. Right? Lol. Does it look its working for either Hudson or Bud?

By the way Hudson your claiming not to be an Arab or Muslim is peachy. But you of course refused to disclose your tribe. Why? Why is that Hudson? Why is it you engaged in attacking my credibility simply because I am a Jew tribe member but will not disclose what tribe you are a member of? Why Hudson? Why the double standard?

Your silence speaks loudly. You attack my heritage but refuse to disclose yours. Lol.

Finally, Hudson I lived with Beduins. I was fortunate to have not only lived with them but learned from them as to their ways. For you to think you can come on this forum and rely on a web site article to try pose as the purveyor of Beduin truth is fun fun fun.

Unlike you I do not come on this forum posing as an expert on them, claiming I know the truth, and try pass myself off as the absolute and only righteous authority because I sit in a bedroom reading anti Israel web sites and think they make me an expert.

My life and world Hudson unlike yours is not determined or experienced by hiding in a bedroom and depending on partisan political sites for my reality. Unlike you my world is not truth and untruth in neat little rigid labels.

I live what I talk about.

I lived with Beduin Hudson. I speak what they taught me about them.

Nothing I said about Beduins in Israel is something they would not acknowledge.

You think you have a new platform and cause to twist to advance your anti Israel script? You think like Palestinians you know them and speak for them? You? Hudson Jones so quick to say he is no Arab now is an expert on Beduins?

You?

You exploit Beduins as you do Palestinians. You know neither. All they are to you us a card to play when badmouthing the right of Jews to exist in a state. No more, no less.

The Arab League nations you know them Hudson?

Come back when you want to discuss how they treat Beduins and compare it to how they are treated in Israel.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Rue

[Rue]

Here is a site that indicates the problems with the Beduin is not specific to Israel. However

I do note Hudson Jones will not acknowledge this is not an issue across the Middle East.

If he did that, he could not make the claim its ethnic cleansing and exploit the plight of Beduins as

a platform to advance his anti Israel posts and threads:

http://i08.cgpublisher.com/proposals/162/index_html

Here is the Israeli government's explanation for what they are trying to do with Beduins something

Hudson Jones can not acknowledge since his script does not acknowledge the right of Israel to exist

as a Jewish state:

http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Issues/Pages/The-Bedouin-in-the-Negev-and-the-Begin-Plan-4-Nov-2013.aspx

Here is an article that makes it clear how absurd it is for Hudson Jones to come on this board and think he is an expert on Beduin culture from reading a partisan political site whose mandate it is to misrepresent the conflict with Beduins as a result of Zionist racist policies-it blows away his ridiculous attempt to suggest the Beduin were not a nomadic people and you will note the myth he raises

tries to use the present tense to further misrepresent the Beduin people. The Beduin in fact are best described as semi-nomadic. Their movement depended on the season and it was cycular in nature. Obviously with creeping urbanization modern Beduins find themselves having to give up the old ways for the new one of urbanization and face the same problems of assimilation within urban environments as all indigenous people do whether it be in South or North America, New Zealand, Australia, etc.

http://www.consiliencejournal.org/index.php/consilience/article/viewFile/238/83

This article discusses the turning of Beduins from nomads (travellers) to sedentary people:

http://www.bedouinheritage.org/bhf/blog/masterpieces/bedouin-culture/the-sedentarization-of-the-bedouin-people/

In the above article it discusses the Beduins of Jordan who face the same issues as they do in Oman, Egypt, Jordan, etc.

Hudson Jones you can try dismiss the info I present with one foul tribal smeer but each time you or anyone else on this forum want to exploit the issues faced by Palestinians, Beduins or anyone else to degrade my right to be a Jew and a collective Jew, I am going to speak up. Call me racist, complain to the moderator, do what you want, here I stand.

[Hudson Jones]

Oh fantastic. You have been with Beduins and so now you know what is best for them. Even though the Beduins themselves DO NOT want to be transported to somewhere else. How about you ask the Beduins who you became BFF's with, how they feel about being moved? Or does what they think matter to you and the rest of the Zionist/Colonialist thugs? You realize that, once again, Israel is destroying homes and villages in order to transport people and to claim their land?

Thank you for posting a link to the Israeli government web site so we can see what their PR is saying. Does their PR, or you, ever acknowledge that the reason the Beduins do not have access to the grid is because Israel refuses to give it to them? Does it ever acknowledge that, despite thousands of requests for permits, the government refuses to give the Beduins permits, while Ironically, in 2010, the Knesset retroactively legalized around 60 individual settlements in the Naqab that were established without permits and contrary to planning laws. These individual settlements, all but one of which are Jewish owned, are connected to all the basic services and are often located near the “unrecognized” Bedouin villages.

Israel wants these people's land and that's why they've done everything they could to drive them out. A percentage of them have been moved to the ghettos, but the rest have not and continue to live there. This is why this ethnic cleansing plan came into effect. This is land that Beduins have been living on way before the European Jews migrated and settled in Palestine and way before Israel became a State.

Go ahead, ask a Beduin how he or she feels about being forcibly transferred.

As far as what my nationality is. Would it disappoint you to know that I'm a whitey with European background? And stop getting all emotional and sensitive about your ethnic background being brought into this. Many people are blinded by nationalism and tribalism. Don't get me wrong. There are many many Jews who are not blinded by what Israel and Zionism is doing. Some of the biggest leaders speaking out against the thuggery and the brutal treatment of Palestinians by the Zionists are Jews.

[Rue]

Oh fantastic. You have been with Beduins and so now you know what is best for them.

Never once have I come on this forum and stated what is best for Beduins, Palestinians, Israelis. Never once. On the other hand I have lost track of the number of posts ou have initiated or responded with on this forum making sweeping pronouncements as to what my place as a Jew is in this world.

Its interesting though. You never fail in your comments to patronize and insult Jews and presume to tell them where there place is on this planet, i.e., certainly not in Israel then you come on this forum and once again ignore the issues I am challenging and try engage me personally and falsely misrepresent what I have said. Once again you engage in a misrepresentation and the question is will you finish it.

Go on provide the words where I stated what is good for Beduins. Go on. You won't. It is what you do. Misrepresent what I actually stated and make false allegations as to what I have stated. Then you will ignore this post, refuse to admit you were wrong and misrepresented what I said and will engage in yet another false comment as to what I said. Lol. Does it look like its working?

Now let me deal with your latest personal comment:

".. stop getting all emotional and sensitive about your ethnic background being brought into this."

I have the right to challenge you each and every time you bring my being a Jew into a debate. Its immaterial. You were dead wrong doing it. You engaged in an anti-semitic slur calling out my people and referring to me as some tribe member who merely supports Israel because I consider anyone but Jews inferior. That is what you did. Its there for all to read and you can take that series of personal slurs presuming my Jewish tribalism makes me a racist as you infer and shove it.

Reducing me to a Jew of a tribe protecting Jews simply because they are Jews is what you advanced and you are damn right I have the right to reject that as a racist, anti-semitic response and one never far from the surface in all your comments about me when debating Israel. It always comes down to turning everything into an accusation of racism with you and that if a Jew wants the same nationality rights as anyone else we are racist. Shove your double standard.

Now is it appropriate every time you make an insult about Jews or Israelis I refer to you as a white Anglo who is racist against Jews because you can't understand us and presume to? Would you like that? Have I once came on this forum and suggested the very fact you are a gentile and white makes you a racist? Hmm?

Save it. One other thing "Hudson Jones" you missed it yet again. Being a whitey is not a nationality. Being French, British, Irish, Italian, might be.

Again you refuse to identify your nationality yet again. Why? Why now do you hide behind the artificial category of white? Since when is being white a nationality? What are you telling me you are an Aryan supremacist? Is that it. Or are you of some European ancestry you hold back because at this point you find it uncomfortable to disclose it?

Why is that Hudson? How is it in every breath you ridicule my right to be a Jew nationally but you won't mention your nationality and presume to tell me that makes me a racist?

Well?

Finish what you started Hudson. Finish it just once. Can't wait for the reference to where I presumed to know what is good for Beduins.

You know nothing about me Hudson. You know nothing about what I stand for. It is precisely because you have preconceived negative stereotypes about me that you think you can presume from me being Jewish and a Zionist that continues to have you spread all this anti-semitic horse crap.

You know nothing of what I think of Palestinians, Beduins, Druze, Bahaiis, Zoroastreans, Christians of the Middle East, Felashies, Jews of all kinds. You know nothing. You presume though. You presume I am racist simply because I am a Jew and Zionist and that makes you a bigot. You are an anti semitic bigot who presumes to tell all Jews not just me that we are not allowed to have our own nation and that we believe Arabs are inferior. You are dead wrong. Absolutely dead wrong.

We are people. We are not one simplistic negative characteristic you come up with.

Hudson Jones I doubt you ever met a Jew or an Arab. I say that because the more you respond to me the clearer it becomes to me that you speak only based on assumptions you read not on meeting and living and speaking with people.

You certainly do not read my posts and what I have stated about Beduins in the past let alone in this thread.

Emotion?

No emotion. You project that on me because you may indeed write with emotion. I feel nothing for you Mr. Jones. Not a thing. If I have passion Mr. Jones it would not be for you or anything you have to say. Don't flatter yourself in to thinking I share emotion over what you say. Lol.

[Hudson Jones]

Dude. You're emotionally unstable and that's where this so-called passion comes from.

When Israel is forcibly transferring the Beduins, against their wishes, from their homes, and you come in here to back up these actions, this makes you a supporter of a policy that discriminates. There is no way around this. Some Jews' wish to have their own, pure, Jewish only state is no excuse for discrimination and the violation of human rights.

You have accused me of being an Arab, an Iranian agent and other things. So all this about you not making comments about my background and your emotional cries about me bringing up the fact that you're Jewish is kind of weird. When you can't even follow what you say yourself, how can anyone expect you to follow the conversation? You haven't been able to. People continuously call you on your inability to stay consistent and follow the conversation, without going into different incoherent tangents. But you refuse to accept it.

When I ask you to abandon tribalism, this is not anti-semitic. This is a plea for you to see and treat people as you would treat yourself. The Palesitnians and the Beduins are not being treated the same way the Jews in Israel and in the Occupied Territories. This is why it's legitimate to say that Israel is discriminating against another group of people.

Not only are the laws discriminatory and racist but the whole, overall policy and their actions are discriminatory and racist. I have shared numerous number of facts to back this up and there is no amount of denial by you or the Israeli PR that will change the facts on the ground.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Rue]

Hudson you are in no position to call anyone unstable emotionally or otherwise. That is again an example

of how you engage in personal attacks and this coming from someone who runs to the moderator whenever

he can to complain.

Hudson every time you engage in a personal attack and suggest because I do not agree with you that makes me

unstable your tactic shows. Its an attempt avoid debating the issues by trying to make me the issue. It doesn't work

Hudson and its precisely why I mock you and accuse you of being Iranian or anything else-because it satirizes how you

take someone's identity and use it as an excuse to hurl insults at them pretexting it as criticism of Israel.

Hudson you have exposed yourself for what you are. You now would have me and others on this forum believe that when

criticizing Israeli state policies, you feel you have the right to tell me as a Jew not to be tribal.

Hudson you are in no position to lecture any Jew let alone this Jew or any human on how they should approach their identity on a collective or individual basis and you show that the pretext of criticizing Israeli policy is in fact just an excuse for you to try put

a Jew who you think doesn't know his place, in line.

Your response shows Hudson you have taken a debate on Israeli policies to insult Jews who want a collective identity as in need of your patronizing lectures as to where they belong.

Once again Hudson you avoid telling people what your nationality is while insulting mine.

It speaks volumes Hudson and drives home the point I made-you use the pretense of criticizing Israeli policies to engage in

anti-semitic insults and presumptions that assume you in a position to dictate to me anything let alone how I should live.

Unstable? Lol. Uh yah. You come on this forum to me to stop being tribal? Lol.

Yassuh bwana.

[Hudson Jones]

Hudson you are in no position to call anyone

Oh but I am. I am in the position to say what I like to say.

Your response proved my point again.

Tell me when you are able to let go over your zealotry and tribalism and start seeing and treating others as you would yourself. If you're unable to do that, you will be sidelined, just like other extremists have been in history.

Israel's discriminatory treatment of Palestinians and other minorities in Israel and the Occupied Territories have continued for decades. The world does not have the stomach for it anymore and it will end, with or without your support.